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  1. #51
    cordell staker's Avatar
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Cool Bandit in Austin
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  2. #52
    cordell staker's Avatar
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Not My Bandit

  3. #53
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: cactusflyer

    Geeez''talk about AERO-DRAMATICS!

    How about this....if your aerochine is a spinning, center all the controls...if it is still spinning and you are looking through a windscreen, apply rudder opposite the rotation. If it's a toy plane, put in the opposite rudder stick that you had in just after you said ''hey, watch this, I'm cool, just like Rav!''. ...then try to do whatever it takes to get the pointy end aimed at the ground. If that doesn't work, well, you're screwed because you are most likely too low to recover....

    I know jacksh$t about nothing, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express several times on layovers and I have done my very best to insure that bird I'm sitting in does NOT spin for over 30 years''......

    Oh and one more thing....Chardonnay is for PU$$YS![:-]

    Tailwinds,

    John
    As good an answer as any :-)
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  4. #54
    Andrew Bird's Avatar
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    I like toy planes......
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  5. #55

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Spins in jets can get pretty wild. The USAF had a 13 step bold face procedure to recover the T-37 from a spin (guys correct me if I'm wrong).

    The T-6 Texan 2 (turbo prop) has a 3 step bold face, but it can recover if you just let go of the controls and go to idle power.

    The T-38C flight manual makes it very clear that the aircraft shouldn't spin, but if it does, it says: 1. Control stick - full aileron, in direction of spin and as much aft stick as possible without sacrificing alieron. 2. Rudder - Full Opposite Turn. 3. Do not change configuration. 4. Neutralize controls after recovery.

    Interesting to see that they actually tell you to use the aileron and aft stick. Crazy jet aerodynamics.

    I'm with the guys that leave spinning and snap manuevers for the prop aircraft.

  6. #56

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Well, I guess nobody really knows why full thrust keeps the plane spinning instead of pushing it forward and gaining forward speed (no prop gyroscopic effect here, btw).

    So, in the absence of an explanation: just do it !!! . Power to idle first, and then proceed with one of the scientific procedures explained in this thread.

    Jack


    Raffi, this is the first time I like smoke in a jet !!! It looks awesome !!!!
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  7. #57
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Aileron into the spin places the outside aileron down...increasing drag on outside wing. Slows rotation
    Tom Perry
    In Dog beers, I only had one!

  8. #58
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Ha! What a great thread! LOL!!

    I love Bandits! The more pics the better!

    Jack, what a funny thing about hotspots. I'll pontificate if you don't mind.

    A. With the residual thrust of the engine, it was just enough to keep "pushing" the stalled wing so that the flying wing, couldn't recover. It kept the "momentum" going if you will.

    And

    B. With the engine on and the slow flat spin going, the nominal intake of the engine air, it sits in between the two angled vertical stabs in a hot spot, was just enough to deviate any air to the stabs to help stabilize the flat spin.

    As soon as the engine was shut off (in desperation as you so well eluded to), a modicum of control was then established.

    And smoke is GREAT man!!!!

    Cactusflyer, no-one can be as cool as me. [8D]

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  9. #59

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Raffi, you are a genius !!! (and you don't need to insult to be heard )

    Let me put in my words a model of what I understood from your explanation, if you don't mind:

    - in a spin configuration, the engine thrust is not aligned with the, let's call it: "aerodynamical centerline of the airplane" anymore; because the lift of the wings is not balanced anymore. One wing is lifting, while the other one is stalled, so the "lateral balance" is shifted towards the stalled wing.

    - therefore, what the engine thrust does is to create a "torque" around the new "lateral balance point". At more thrust, more torque around the pivoting point. So, no way it can push the airplane forward. It will make it rotate faster, if any.

    Two things:
    - I just came up with all the "terminology"; so, sorry about that.
    - I can suggest with authority now: "cut the power first" !!

    Thanks again Raffi.

    Jack
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  10. #60
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit



    I'm lovin' the terminology Jack!

    Well, if you can't recover your plane in a flat spin anyways, no matter what you do, I'd say "cut the power!" too.

    It goes to show you how some airframes are more likely to recover than others.

    E.g. Hotspots and maybe Vipers won't recover in an upright flat spin

    And little Bandits (I won't be trying any upright flat spins in the Ultra ) can recover, but NOT spontaneously. [X(]

    Wow, kinda scary! [] I don't think I'll be trying any upright flat spins on purpose anymore. []

    I feel SOOOO lucky that I only started flat spins inverted!
    RAVjets Demo Team. All We Do Is Fly.

  11. #61

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    So the now the Interwebs waits for Raf to do flap spins with his Ultra Bandit...
    Team Elite Aerosport

  12. #62
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    The interwebs will continue waiting until I can try upright "flap" spins with the king DubD's ultra!
    RAVjets Demo Team. All We Do Is Fly.

  13. #63

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    LOL keep dreaming! I am tempted to try it inverted now... After I get my smoke system working.
    Team Elite Aerosport

  14. #64
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Rav

    Smokin' Bandits Rock. love your pics.

    Thanks for the tips on how to recover a spinning Bandit. Although....... I am way too much of a Pu$$y to ever spin my Bandit. Glad to know they can be recovered though.

    Friend of mine once owned a Renegade. (local design sport jet, same layout as a Bandit.) He entered a spin with it, .... once. Recovery was not an option. Like the Hotspot referred to above, we had time to offer him plenty of advice, and discuss the virtues of the design, prior to it corkscrewing into the dirt. I guess it was an upright spin.. I have avoided spinning my jets since then.

    Roger

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  15. #65

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: David Gladwin


    Sorry BE your post was complete tosh, unstalling the wing is achieved by stick forward, the rudder opposes the yaw which is always present in a true spin.


    David.
    David Almost all of your posts are arrogant tosh. You just dont seem to realise it despite being told many times by many people

  16. #66

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: FalconWings

    David it's your arrogant attitude man. You are down right condescending to fellow modelers. Yes I could meet you at Oshkosh, RIAT, Farnborough, but I could care less about it. You may be a good guy undernetah it all, but you write like a real douche.
    Not interested in meeting you at the time. Sorry, have to pass.
    Very well said. and spot on

  17. #67
    Moderator j.duncker's Avatar
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Hey guys this is an interesting and informative thread with some healthy interchanges of differing views.

    However there have been some personal attacks which I have been busy deleting and informing the posters of my reasons for doing so. My internet access is erratic so not all messages may have got through. If you had a post deleted and were not informed of the reason and fail to understand why I deleted it feel free to PM me for a full explanation.


    PLEASE resist the urge to curse, flame, degrade, insult or embarrass someone in your post. We encourage the free flow of your ideas, but believe that they can be communicated (and received) much more effectively if you keep things civil.
    The dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.

  18. #68
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

    Never mind.
    Buying Jet Legend? Read here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11372496/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

  19. #69
    CraigG's Avatar
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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: FlyUtah

    Spins in jets can get pretty wild. The USAF had a 13 step bold face procedure to recover the T-37 from a spin (guys correct me if I'm wrong).
    I forget most of those 13 steps (if we had that many back then), but I clearly remember the last step was to slam the stick full forward. Seems like we held opposite rudder and neutral stick for a few rotations before the big stick slam.

    I don't know if those were incipient, developed or imaginary spins but that recovery always seemed to work in the T-37.

    Craig

  20. #70

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

    Harry C has nailed it RIGHT on the head, fly with you anytime Harry (in fact, lets do it soon !)

    Bald Eagle is totally confused between incipient spinning (as quoted by Piggott) and the developed spin, (if he really IS an instructor, which I seriously doubt, he would, or should be absolutely clear on this) the recovery is totally different. Try centralising the controls as for an incipient spin when it is fully developed, things can get VERY exciting and the houses get bigger really fast ! In a Jet Provost for example it would go high rotational and lose a lot of height in the recovery ! The inertias involved in models however, means they nearly always (someone spun a Starjet into the ground at Long Marston I hear) recover by releasing the controls as do SOME full size aircraft.

    Sorry BE your post was complete tosh, unstalling the wing is achieved by stick forward, the rudder opposes the yaw which is always present in a true spin.

    Would love to know where BE did his instructor training and I challenge him to show me any text book or web site which recommends his (or HighHorse's) technique for standard spin recovery, i.e. stick forward when spin stops !

    .......and c'mon Falconwings, (an HH) can't you indulge in a sensible mature, aerodynamic debate without the first resort of personal insults. Perhaps you and HH should read the reference I gave you.

    Regards,

    David.
    How come this one didnt get deleted I wonder. Does it not contain an attack. Come on moderators be consistent or we will think you are unfair and we could not have that now could we

  21. #71

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

    ORIGINAL: highhorse

    ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

    Sorry, Highhorse, I WAS referring to BE's comment (only) but in the RAF we took spinning extremely seriously and at CFS we went into the theory and practice in very great detail. Based on my CFS training I taught it to other instructors (and students, some of Air Rank) at the Jet Refresher School where I was the senior flying standards QFI. Perhaps our RAF teaching was rubbish, I doubt it. Same recovery technique is taught in GA and gliding.

    Sad you have to start making childishly silly personal remarks, adds nothing to your flawed argument about this but perhaps you should read the CFS notes on spinning. (enclosed). Anytime you want a robust, technical, intelligent , perhaps even cogent, debate based on professional knowledge, go ahead but leave the personal bit to the usual clueless keyboard warriors. Never fails to amaze me the complete bollox some guys write here. Keeping the stick back in a spin could well mean the spin stops only on impact. God help Bald Eagle's students (if he really IS an instructor) and god knows who taught him this dangerous nonsense.

    Of course some aircraft DON'T respond well to standard spin recovery, eg Christen Eagle in which my friend Kraivuth of PST died in a spinning accident, (and some other aircraft such as some jets are often prohibited fron intentional spinning, Phantom Tornado, ) but the EE Lightning DID, even though the conservation of angular momentum with its high mass fuselage could somewhat delay recovery and initially speed up rotation, (many aircraft will intially speed up before recovery, due to that conservation of angular momentum, its a sign of the nose coming down as recovery commences !) but recover it would, using standard spin recovery. All you needed was height and lots of it.

    Now read this, below, digest it, see the recovery technique for upright and inverted spins, and get back to me, and I'll tell the RAF, CFS and ETPS what they were doing wrong for all these years !! I'll pass on your comments and advice !

    http://www.sssa.org.za/e107_files/do...7_spinning.pdf

    Let there be no mistake, anyone who thinks they can recover a model jet from a spin by holding up elevator (in an upright spin) might just as well stand back and enjoy the inevitable crash.

    Over to you !

    Regards,

    David.
    Typical Gladwin Post, (I'm a RAF pilot and the rest of you who don't have MY background are dopes) and from the guy who in the ''Downwind Turn Myth'' thread cited his observance of pelicans for support of flawed aerodynamic theory

    David, I'm certain the RAF took their spins seriously, and God bless them for doing so, but that doesn't mean the rest of us haven't also. What the RAF teaches to thousand of students who will be flying dozens of types of aircraft is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of aerodynamic theory, much less optimized practice throughout the world when applied to specific types. There ARE other qualified sources of information in the world, and many of them have been updated since your experiences ''back in the day''

    My own experience isn't to be sneezed at, having taught acro myself with emphasis on ''general'' spin recoveries from inadvertent spins (such as would typically be taught in the military or an average flight school) plus...... specialized recoveries from intentional spins at low level for competition where over-rotation will lose you the contest, and for show work where a delayed recovery will potentially cost your life.

    More specifically, your method in my Pitts or Sukhoi would mean the difference between a nearly instant recovery with the nose roughly 45 degrees below the horizon and a ''*** just happened'' recovery with triple the rotation and the nose 30 degrees lower. This revelation came to me when (with at least a thousand spins logged already) I called the Pitts factory to complain about the rigging on my new S-2B because the spin recoveries weren't crisp. They put me in touch with the factory test pilot who's job description included spinning every airplane on initial test flights. He's the one who set me straight, explained what was happening aerodynamically and refined my technique from merely adequate to quite precise.

    Regards to all,
    Don

    PS: Guys, remember that gyroscopics are typically responsible for making a flat spin flat. Pulling the engine to idle may be vital in recovering a flat spin in your airframe, depending on the type and the direction of the spin. Practice them inverted first because the recoveries from inverted are much faster due to the vertical stab being in ''clean'' air, but remember also that the gyroscopics will have an opposite effect an upright right or left rudder spin vs it's inverted counterpart, so plan accordingly.



    Don, take more water with it mate, if you read my post you will see I refer to machines like the Christen Eagle, (which killed my friend, Kraivuth ) guess Pitts are the same, don't know, never flown one. .............and no, just because I am an ex RAF pilot doesn't mean I treat ALL others as dopes, very, very, far from it, just those who try and prove they are !! Pelicans, do you need a sense of humour implant !! Must be the way i right it !!!!

    What you CAN'T say is that techniques for aeroplanes, such as the Pitts, with unusual or quirky spinning techniques can be applied, in general, as BE (he does spout some complete and utter rubbish) suggests. I am prepared to prove that too ! Still waiting to hear where he did his instructor training, if any . My guess is that this guy is a complete fraud based on the nonsense he has posted.

    Perhaps you should accept that the physics of flying are the same on both sides of the Atlantic (or Pacific) unless Boeing taught me rubbish, funnily enough my 767 flew exactly the same all over the world. ! Come and talk about it at Oshkosh next July I ''ll even buy the beers, or even dinner !

    ........and Falcon wings, I'd rather listen to the teachings of the guys from CFS or ETPS than some muppet on RCU !! Come and join me at Oshkosh, have an intelligent discussion, dinner is on me, we MIGHT even have a robust discussion. Paper for your delicate posterior provided ! (how do you BRAKE the sound barrier, broken it hundreds of times but never braked it )

    Another glass of chardonnay beckons, keeps me sane in the midst of this drivel.

    Keep the blueside up.

    David G.


    And the Muppet comment at the bottom of this post. Is that not an attack. Consistancy is what we need dont you think

  22. #72

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

    Harry C has nailed it RIGHT on the head, fly with you anytime Harry (in fact, lets do it soon !)

    Bald Eagle is totally confused between incipient spinning (as quoted by Piggott) and the developed spin, (if he really IS an instructor, which I seriously doubt, he would, or should be absolutely clear on this) the recovery is totally different. Try centralising the controls as for an incipient spin when it is fully developed, things can get VERY exciting and the houses get bigger really fast ! In a Jet Provost for example it would go high rotational and lose a lot of height in the recovery ! The inertias involved in models however, means they nearly always (someone spun a Starjet into the ground at Long Marston I hear) recover by releasing the controls as do SOME full size aircraft.

    Sorry BE your post was complete tosh, unstalling the wing is achieved by stick forward, the rudder opposes the yaw which is always present in a true spin.

    Would love to know where BE did his instructor training and I challenge him to show me any text book or web site which recommends his (or HighHorse's) technique for standard spin recovery, i.e. stick forward when spin stops !

    .......and c'mon Falconwings, (an HH) can't you indulge in a sensible mature, aerodynamic debate without the first resort of personal insults. Perhaps you and HH should read the reference I gave you.

    Regards,

    David.
    I think in error you deleted the incorrect posts. This was the one that contained an attack. Just pointing things out as you asked

  23. #73

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    RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


    ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

    ORIGINAL: highhorse

    ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

    Sorry, Highhorse, I WAS referring to BE's comment (only) but in the RAF we took spinning extremely seriously and at CFS we went into the theory and practice in very great detail. Based on my CFS training I taught it to other instructors (and students, some of Air Rank) at the Jet Refresher School where I was the senior flying standards QFI. Perhaps our RAF teaching was rubbish, I doubt it. Same recovery technique is taught in GA and gliding.

    Sad you have to start making childishly silly personal remarks, adds nothing to your flawed argument about this but perhaps you should read the CFS notes on spinning. (enclosed). Anytime you want a robust, technical, intelligent , perhaps even cogent, debate based on professional knowledge, go ahead but leave the personal bit to the usual clueless keyboard warriors. Never fails to amaze me the complete bollox some guys write here. Keeping the stick back in a spin could well mean the spin stops only on impact. God help Bald Eagle's students (if he really IS an instructor) and god knows who taught him this dangerous nonsense.

    Of course some aircraft DON'T respond well to standard spin recovery, eg Christen Eagle in which my friend Kraivuth of PST died in a spinning accident, (and some other aircraft such as some jets are often prohibited fron intentional spinning, Phantom Tornado, ) but the EE Lightning DID, even though the conservation of angular momentum with its high mass fuselage could somewhat delay recovery and initially speed up rotation, (many aircraft will intially speed up before recovery, due to that conservation of angular momentum, its a sign of the nose coming down as recovery commences !) but recover it would, using standard spin recovery. All you needed was height and lots of it.

    Now read this, below, digest it, see the recovery technique for upright and inverted spins, and get back to me, and I'll tell the RAF, CFS and ETPS what they were doing wrong for all these years !! I'll pass on your comments and advice !

    http://www.sssa.org.za/e107_files/do...7_spinning.pdf

    Let there be no mistake, anyone who thinks they can recover a model jet from a spin by holding up elevator (in an upright spin) might just as well stand back and enjoy the inevitable crash.

    Over to you !

    Regards,

    David.
    Typical Gladwin Post, (I'm a RAF pilot and the rest of you who don't have MY background are dopes) and from the guy who in the ''Downwind Turn Myth'' thread cited his observance of pelicans for support of flawed aerodynamic theory

    David, I'm certain the RAF took their spins seriously, and God bless them for doing so, but that doesn't mean the rest of us haven't also. What the RAF teaches to thousand of students who will be flying dozens of types of aircraft is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of aerodynamic theory, much less optimized practice throughout the world when applied to specific types. There ARE other qualified sources of information in the world, and many of them have been updated since your experiences ''back in the day''

    My own experience isn't to be sneezed at, having taught acro myself with emphasis on ''general'' spin recoveries from inadvertent spins (such as would typically be taught in the military or an average flight school) plus...... specialized recoveries from intentional spins at low level for competition where over-rotation will lose you the contest, and for show work where a delayed recovery will potentially cost your life.

    More specifically, your method in my Pitts or Sukhoi would mean the difference between a nearly instant recovery with the nose roughly 45 degrees below the horizon and a ''*** just happened'' recovery with triple the rotation and the nose 30 degrees lower. This revelation came to me when (with at least a thousand spins logged already) I called the Pitts factory to complain about the rigging on my new S-2B because the spin recoveries weren't crisp. They put me in touch with the factory test pilot who's job description included spinning every airplane on initial test flights. He's the one who set me straight, explained what was happening aerodynamically and refined my technique from merely adequate to quite precise.

    Regards to all,
    Don

    PS: Guys, remember that gyroscopics are typically responsible for making a flat spin flat. Pulling the engine to idle may be vital in recovering a flat spin in your airframe, depending on the type and the direction of the spin. Practice them inverted first because the recoveries from inverted are much faster due to the vertical stab being in ''clean'' air, but remember also that the gyroscopics will have an opposite effect an upright right or left rudder spin vs it's inverted counterpart, so plan accordingly.



    Don, take more water with it mate, if you read my post you will see I refer to machines like the Christen Eagle, (which killed my friend, Kraivuth ) guess Pitts are the same, don't know, never flown one. .............and no, just because I am an ex RAF pilot doesn't mean I treat ALL others as dopes, very, very, far from it, just those who try and prove they are !! Pelicans, do you need a sense of humour implant !! Must be the way i right it !!!!

    What you CAN'T say is that techniques for aeroplanes, such as the Pitts, with unusual or quirky spinning techniques can be applied, in general, as BE (he does spout some complete and utter rubbish) suggests. I am prepared to prove that too ! Still waiting to hear where he did his instructor training, if any . My guess is that this guy is a complete fraud based on the nonsense he has posted.

    Perhaps you should accept that the physics of flying are the same on both sides of the Atlantic (or Pacific) unless Boeing taught me rubbish, funnily enough my 767 flew exactly the same all over the world. ! Come and talk about it at Oshkosh next July I ''ll even buy the beers, or even dinner !

    ........and Falcon wings, I'd rather listen to the teachings of the guys from CFS or ETPS than some muppet on RCU !! Come and join me at Oshkosh, have an intelligent discussion, dinner is on me, we MIGHT even have a robust discussion. Paper for your delicate posterior provided ! (how do you BRAKE the sound barrier, broken it hundreds of times but never braked it )

    Another glass of chardonnay beckons, keeps me sane in the midst of this drivel.

    Keep the blueside up.

    David G.


    There you go and another one in there (Attack that is). Again trying to be helpful as you requested


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