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HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

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HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Old 11-27-2012, 06:41 AM
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uixkes
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Default HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Hi all,

Help!! Panic!! I don't know what to do. I want to buy my first turbine and I am completely lost.

I bought a sport Jet called Navy Cat (like the Falcon 120) and they recommend KingTec 80 or Jetmunts VT80, so something in the 80N range.

I searched the internet and now I feel totally overwhelmed but reduced it down to the following turbines:

Wren 75 Jubilee (£1199)
JetCat P90 RXi (€1950 or £1580)
JetCat P100RX (€2195 or £1777)
JetMunts VT80 (£1498)
KingTec K80E (£1199 + £61 for kero start)

The question is now which one to buy.

I like the Wren because it is a well established brand and well known for the excellent service. Also they are based in the UK which would make it simpler for servicing and the price is very good.
On the other hand everything is external (pump, valves, ECU etc). I don't know whether this is good or bad as more and more manufacturers fit this inside the turbines. So installing the turbine is little bit more complex than compared with the JetCat P90RXi where everything is inside the turbine.

This is what I like about the JetCat P90RXi. Everything is inside the turbine and only a fuel tube to connect to the tank and a cable to the ECU. So for a beginner (beginner with turbines not the hobby ) this would
reduce potential errors to a minimum. On the other hand what if something is wrong with the turbine? You have to send it to JetCat although it might be a simple problem which could be easy to fixed would the parts be outside the turbine. Also compared with the Wren the JetCat P90 needs far more fuel (110ml/min more)

The JetCat P100 I like because the turbine is lighter and needs less fuel than the P90.

I like the JetMunt VT80 because you can run the turbine on Diesel which would make life much easier (and cheaper compared to paraffin).
The downside is, that the manufacturer is based in Spain. So for servicing do I have to send the turbine to Spain?

The last one on the list. The KingTec K80E. Great price but manufactured in Taiwan. So what about servicing?

As you can see not easy to decide which one to go for. Maybe you have some alternative suggestions which I have overlooked.

Any advice and help is appreciated as always.

Ulli

Old 11-27-2012, 06:50 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Grabs popcorn your going to get tons of opinions.
I run a kingtech, they seem to be work horse turbines, they run when others would flame out, lifetime warranty, great price, they can run diesel and Barry is great to deal with.
Old 11-27-2012, 06:57 AM
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basimpsn
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

ORIGINAL: FenderBean

Grabs popcorn your going to get tons of opinions.
I run a kingtech, they seem to be work horse turbines, they run when others would flame out, lifetime warranty, great price, they can run diesel and Barry is great to deal with.
Oh no I smell gasoline Kingtech..thrust you can see.
Old 11-27-2012, 06:58 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

I would get the wren if I lived in the UK.
Good price, and easy to get service and support.

All the others are great engnige too.

But, the 8kg thrust might limit your future choices of airframes.
A 10kg thust turbine is just enough to fly a little larger airframe later on.......but clearly is quite a bit more expensive
Old 11-27-2012, 07:03 AM
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uixkes
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Hi FenderBean

you are absolutely right and I will get a lot of replies. But that is what I need to help make a decision.
It's a lot of money for me to spend and I don't want to regret it by buying the wrong turbine. But I think there is no "wrong" turbine anyway.

I think the most important aspect is the service of the turbine and then running cost.
I am sure all turbines run well and it is down to personal taste but maybe one turbine stands out or is more suitable for me than another.

I notice you are based in the USA. Would I have to send my turbine (if I buy a Kingtech) to Barry for servicing or in case of problems?

Thanks for your reply.

Ulli
Old 11-27-2012, 07:06 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

I would say that the Jetcat P90 would be too big and heavy for that model. I'm not sure about the size/weight of the Kingtech but the others should all be ok. All of the engines that you have listed are good engines.

If you go for the VT80 then check out the UK rep (listed on the Jets Munt website) or ask Jets Munt their latest direct price as the 1650 Euros stated on their website equates to about £1350. Whether you can actually get the engine for that I am not sure.

Wren servicing is quick and easy as they are based in the UK. Jets Munt servicing is reputed to be very good and quick but may have to go back to Spain if it ever needs repairs. Jetcat servicing can be slow and expensive but is very good (and the engine has to go back to Germany). Servicing is only one consideration though as, in my experience, the engines don't need to go back very often unless there is crash damage.

It is a personal choice and the items that you have highlighted for consideration are along the right lines, but if it was me, for that model, I would go for the Wren or the VT80.
Old 11-27-2012, 07:11 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Ulli,

Yep you're going to get loads of opinions ! So heres mine....

Firstly the Wren - OK turbines but seem to lag behind in development a little IMO. I haven't owned a Wren for a while now but certainly a few years ago they tended to be turbines for the "tinkerer". Price is very low though so that is attractive if thats what is important to you.

JetCat P90Rxi - basically the old JetCat P80 but with the fuel pump and valves housed in the front case of the turbine. This does make for a very clean installation and I can see the attraction for turbine newbies but to be honest plumbing a fuel pump in is incredibly simple - fuel in , fuel out and power plug. My only concern with this one is weight. The P80 although fantastic for its time is now a heavy unit for the thrust it puts out. With the valves and pump in the turbine you are just adding more weight behind the CofG. It all depends how tail or nose heavy your aircraft will be. In general terms however you really don't want too much weight behind the CG as you will end up having to compensate for it up front.

JetCat P100Rx - another great turbine and a smaller case size than the P90rxi

JetsMunt VT80 - probably the turbine best suited to your application. More than enough thrust, small case size, lightest and the most fuel efficient of all the turbines. Having the ECu under the cover is better than having the fuel pump under the cover as it weighs almost nothing but eliminates more electrical connections so especially attractive to the first time operator.

Kingtech K80E - never had a Kingtech myself but I haven't heard anybody complain about them. They seem to be very sound units. I believe they have cast compressor wheels rather than machined but still haven't heard of any major failures. Looking at the specs however the turbine itself is pretty heavy and fuel consumption higher than all the others listed. Again price is attractive.

Servicing wise, a lot of people ask about this and quite rightly so but its not as if you are going to be sending your turbines back and forth every few months (hopefully !!). Unless you get an awful lot of flying done its more like once every couple of years or even once a year at most. Jet Cat turnaround times for servicing can be a bit up and down as they are normally very busy. Jets Munt - you probably won't find better - normally about a week, often less. I don't have any experience of Kingtech but I believe you would be sending back to Taiwan. Again no big deal - as long as its not often.

In general turbines nowadays are incredibly reliable. So long as they are installed and operated well, it should just be a case of fit and forget until service time is due.

best regards

Colin
Old 11-27-2012, 07:15 AM
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HarryC
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?


ORIGINAL: uixkes
I like the JetMunt VT80 because you can run the turbine on Diesel which would make life much easier (and cheaper compared to paraffin).
Many of us use 28 second heating oil which is much cheaper than diesel, Jet A-1, paraffin etc, which negates any advantage to being allowed to use diesel. According to a Conoco data sheet, 28 second heating oil is just a synonym for jet fuel, paraffin etc., though I expect they are stored and tested for cleanliness to different specifications. I use 28 second heating oil and a Mr. Funnel to ensure any water is removed.

I have 6 Wren engines and no others so might be biased to them but I would be equally happy with any of the engines that you listed. Whichever you choose, you will not have made a poor choice. Having once had a PST engine which had to go back to Thailand for factory work I am not keen on the costs and delays of sending the engine abroad, especially outside the EU because it gets hit for taxes on the cost of the work and shipping when it comes back.
Old 11-27-2012, 07:20 AM
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uixkes
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Hi me again,

wow, didn't expect to get replies that quickly.

siclick33:
You might be right and the P90 is too heavy although does 270g make a big difference? Maybe it does as the weight is located inside the turbine.

I noticed the €1650 on the JetMunts website. The £1498 I got from the Boomerang website.
But it would be a pain to send the engine to Spain for servicing, although how quickly do you get 50h run time.

SJN:
You say 8Kg would limit my choice for later airframes. I thought 80N is a standard sixe and you can fly tons of models with it.
Maybe I have to think again.

Thanks anyway for all the replies. Very much appreciated.

Ulli
Old 11-27-2012, 07:30 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

270g may not make a lot of difference but it is also the size that is different. If you can get to see a P80/P90 (they are the same size) next to a Wren Jubilee/VT80 you will see that it is pretty huge in comparison.

I assume 25 hours for servicing but if you run 10 minutes per flight that is 150 flights between servicing (until 25 hours). If that drops to 8 minutes per flight then that is over 185 flights. I don't know how often you fly, or how many flights you have when you go out, but that is quite a lot of trips to the field for me.

p.s. from my experience the Wrens don't need any more tinkering that the Jets-Munt engines. Neither brands require a lot of fiddling but neither are perfect either. If you want minimal tinkering then I would suggest Jetcat. I also prefer external ECU but that is just a personal choice.
Old 11-27-2012, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Thanks again for all you comments.

HarryC:

You say that you are using 28 second heating oil which is much cheaper than diesel, Jet A-1, paraffin. At a local iron monger I can get greenhouse heating paraffin (£7.50 for 4litres) so much more expensive than diesel.
So what is exactly 28 second heating oil and where do you get it? Does Wren allow the use of that stuff?
Originally I am from Germany and haven't heard of it. My guess is that it is what we call Petroleum.

ColinGontier:

Interesting point about the Wren turbines. Why do you think that they lag behind in development.
Of course price is important to me but definitely not the only one. For the right turbine I would spend extra but only for the right reason.

I agree with you about the servicing and with all the comments so far I tend towards the JetsMunt VT80 even if I have to send it to Spain.
But as you pointed out it is rather every two years.

Thanks again and keep the comments rolling in.

Ulli
Old 11-27-2012, 08:05 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

If you're leaning towards the VT80 then also consider the Jets-Munt Merlin M100X. Similar size and weight to the VT80 with quite a bit more power (but more £££££). It has a slightly different installation to the VT80 with external ECU.

Interesting point about the Wren turbines. Why do you think that they lag behind in development.
Because he sells Jets Munt To be fair I agree to a certain extent but it is not all that bad. Back in the day, Wren were one of the pioneers of the model jet and produced class leading turbines. Since then, some of their stuff has taken a while to develop (such as kerostart) and others such as Jets-Munt have 'overtaken' them, but the 54 class engines (Jubilee/Supersport/Wren 100) are all based on a very good core engine. They might not have onboard valves, integral ECUs, internal kerostart etc but they are still worth consideration.
Old 11-27-2012, 08:08 AM
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HarryC
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Ulli,

heating oil is not what what we call petroleum, to us petroleum is petrol i.e. that explosive stuff in cars that Americans call gasoline.

Here is the Conoco Philips data sheet on jet fuel, note that one of the synonyms is 28 second heating oil
http://www.par-petroleum.co.uk/image...sene_Aug10.pdf

Diesel is 35 second oil, it refers to the time it takes some amount of the fuel to drain through a particular size of hole, so 28 second is less viscous than diesel which is 35 second oil.

I recently bought 28 second oil for about 77p/litre whereas last Jet A-1 I bought was about 96p/litre. A local heating oil firm has a pump I can just drive up to and fill up the jerry cans. Wren doesn't officially approve it (yet), but having seen so many other people successfully use it long term in other brands of engine and then finding that Conoco data sheet that says it is jet fuel convinced me. Engine makers will not officially approve something until they have had time to test it themselves so lack of approval isn't the same as official disapproval!

Colin's point about Wren development depends on which bit you look at. True, Wren has not yet put the ancillaries under the bonnet so they look more complicated to connect up, but on the other hand Wren 160 is same size and weight as a Jetcat 120 and quite a bit smaller and lighter than JC 160, Wren 100 is in the same case and weight as the original 54 which was co-incidentally about 54 newtons thrust, so Wren does do development that matters. A couple of times I have had a Jetronic solenoid valve stick at the airfield and tracking down the fault and then bypassing the valve so I could carry on flying it was a lot easier with the valves outside than I expect it would be with the valves under the bonnet! A fault like that is a very rare occurrence but for most of us, but installing a turbine into a model is also rare, so there are pros and cons either way. When I first investigated getting a jet I didn't buy a Wren because as Colin said they seemed to be makers of kits for builders and tinkerers rather than fit and forget engines for fliers but they moved on from that stage many years ago.

Harry

Old 11-27-2012, 08:22 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

ORIGINAL: uixkes
So what is exactly 28 second heating oil and where do you get it?
Try
http://www.yell.com/s/oil+fuel+distr...narkshire.html

http://www.yell.com/s/oil+fuel+distr...rs-lanark.html

You want a supplier that has a pump at their depot, since most heating oil comes in a tanker lorry expecting to deliver a few thousand litres into your house heating tank!
Old 11-27-2012, 08:25 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

77p/litre! wow, that would make a big difference to running costs. I will have a look and see where I could find that stuff here in Lanarkshire.

With all the comments I heard I am now leaning towards the JetMunts VT80 or Merlin M100X.

I noticed that JetMunts is not offering an online shop yet. They are asking €1652 which is roughly £1337. Als Hobbies wants £1499 so does A1 Colchster model shop.
£162 difference [>:]. I guess for being available 24/7 and profit of course (we all have to make living [8D] )

Ulli
Old 11-27-2012, 08:35 AM
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Ali
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

I am sure you factored in shipping costs, differing Euro rates, bank transfer fee's, shipping costs on warranty repairs from us to manufacturer, overheads for running a retail outlet?
Regards Al
Old 11-27-2012, 08:41 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Hi,
I have a Falcon 120 converted to turbine power, that is virtually the same airframe as your Navy Cat.
I fly it with fixed gear from the CVF's grass field near Kilmacolm. Feel free to contact me if you want to see it some time.

I fitted a Wren 54 Mk3, rated at14 lb or 63 N of thrust, and that is loads of power. You might consider a second hand one of those (or similar). I have two batteries in the nose and it needs no lead ballast. The model takes off easily, flies fast, and lands slowly (with land flap). For a first jet I would seriously consider keeping it as simple as possible (eg fixed U/C, plain plastic wheels, no brakes).

I also have a Wren 75 Jubilee which, despite the number, is rated at 80 N thrust. It has kero start, reliable so far. Same size and weight, and great value.
Wren used to answer queries on the phone, but normally now you have to email them, but you still get a fairly quick answer. They are probably your best bet for advice and problem solving, an important point with a first turbine.

I run my turbines on either parafin, or central heating oil (kerosene, or 28 second oil) as mentioned above, obtained from Campbell's Fuels in Paisley. Or if I am driving past Cumbernauld airport I stop to buy Jet A1. The chap in the tower has been very helpful. If I run out and am desperate I occasionally buy paraffin in 4 litre bottles from the local hardware shop, but it is more expensive that way. All of those have been cheaper than diesel (unless you can get red diesel from a farmer?).

The Jet Munt VT80 is very attractive. I bought one but have yet to run it. Rob Rowbotham and Al's Hobbies sell them and would support with after sales advice (I don't know about repairs).

Finally, I suggest that you select the best engine for the model you have bought and are building. Don't try to second guess which engine might be suitable for whatever your second jet might turn out to be, and make do with that. Get this one right first.
Alasdair
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:06 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Ali:

Of course if you factor that in than £162 is not that much plus the fact you are based in the UK should I need help and advice.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Btw, would Als Hobbies service the JetMunts turbine or do I have to send the turbine back to Spain?

Alistair:
Nice to hear from you. I would love to see your Falcon fly. And I agree with you about the turbine being the right one for the model.

Ulli
Old 11-27-2012, 09:46 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Thankyou Ulli.

We do not service any turbine here. I myself have been down the route of using repair centres other than those who are factory affiliated and that didn't out work well. So now I send mine and customers turbines as close as I can to where they were made.
I do offer a flat rate of £25.00 shipping for any turbine that I sell which has to go back for servicing.... No matter where it has to be shipped. This hopefully takes away some of the worry for those wondering abut shipping turbines overseas, as I know of people who have paid close to that to ship turbines back within the UK.
Of course, if its a warranty repair then we cover all shipping costs to and from the UK. I always try and think of it this way. I would much rather have a turbine that costs twice as much to ship to its origin then one that has to be shipped back four times more frequently.
To date we have sold close to twenty Jet Munt VT-80's and thus far only one has had to be shipped home to Spain, and even that was just a parameter adjust that could have been done over the phone or email with Gaspar. For peace of mind the customer asked us to return it to the factory, and so we did.
Regards Al
Old 11-27-2012, 10:16 AM
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uixkes
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Hi Al,

thank you for the info.

You can expect my order very soon.

Ulli
Old 11-27-2012, 10:21 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Unless money is super tight I would go for the Wren 100. Same size as the 75.

You do not HAVE to use that extra power but it is nice to have.
Old 11-27-2012, 11:36 AM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

My opinion also

I also agree that it seems Wren is delayed since the don't have the ancillaries inside the front cover. In fact I like the ancillaries where I can touch them and not inside covers....
In the other hand they did an excellent job in very important aspects:

- Weight to thrust ratio: they are light and powerful (like others)
- Acceleration: they have excellent spool up time
- Reliability: I have one Wren 100 with 26 FH / 130 flights @ 15° to 36° C ambient temp. NO one flameout....
- Interval for bearing check/replacement: 50 hours (while JC, JetCat, Kingtech, Jets-Munt request 25....)

If I live in UK... I would go with Wren (the 100 and de-rated to 8kg or Jubilee if the money difference is important)
Old 11-27-2012, 12:14 PM
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RCISFUN
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

Just curious why you didn't list the Jet Central Rabbit VT100 as a potential?

There is at least one UK dealer "Robrow" here on RCU
Old 11-27-2012, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

I have the Kingtech K-80 and am not dissapointed. The cost saving is substantial.
For what a JetCat costs, you could buy the Kingtech AND the plane to put it in and
still have some change coming back. You have to send all turbines back for the
factory checkup.

Jeff
Old 11-27-2012, 11:40 PM
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Default RE: HELP!!! Which turbine to buy?

I will go Jetcat for reliability , all the time. And if financially constrained and still wanted to add turbine on my growing fleet, I 'll go with Kingtech.



Juaffy
proud owner of Jetcat P200sx/P140rx/P120sx/P120se
Kingtech K140F/K80ex2(sold)/k170e(sold)

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