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The politics of jet flying

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Old 12-04-2012, 08:46 PM
  #26
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: essyou35

Its getting harder to and harder to find places to fly a jet. Airports ban us, clubs ban us. I can argue all day long how a 700 sized heli is more dangerous to a crowd than a turbine jet, it wont matter.


It seems so simple but seems no one ever wants to do anything except complain.

Joining together, setting a plan, even if a 5 year plan, this is how things get done.
do you fly jets, if so where? I know the Omahawks have talked for yrs about another field....so far nothing but hot air. Jets are still banned there. Several guys have looked for fields. The best club so far are the Lincoln Sky Knights since they own their property. I wouldnt mind getting together with some guys and finding a new location
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:48 PM
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

Banning jets obviously will not solve the problem... Turbine is a propulsion that makes an aircraft more sophisticated and safer in the air... The problem with turbine because of its power it can out thrown best aircraft and rc pilots with close minded thinking.

Try to convince them to concentrate on safety issue and emergency response system rather than banning turbine.

I'm a member of a club with field named for jets but heli and prop are very much welcome there and turns out to be more enjoyable to fly with them. It's where I appreciate their skills and those latest innovations in heli and prop. If they will open their heart to turbine that would be more enjoyable for them and everyone regardless of his aircraft.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:18 PM
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

I fly in council bluffs, the f86d. I sold it off and now am building a viper jet.
Name is Joey

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ram-bro


Quote:
ORIGINAL: essyou35

Its getting harder to and harder to find places to fly a jet. Airports ban us, clubs ban us. I can argue all day long how a 700 sized heli is more dangerous to a crowd than a turbine jet, it wont matter.


It seems so simple but seems no one ever wants to do anything except complain.

Joining together, setting a plan, even if a 5 year plan, this is how things get done.
do you fly jets, if so where? I know the Omahawks have talked for yrs about another field....so far nothing but hot air. Jets are still banned there. Several guys have looked for fields. The best club so far are the Lincoln Sky Knights since they own their property. I wouldnt mind getting together with some guys and finding a new location
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:28 PM
  #29
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

whats up Joey, not sure I know you. Nice to see other jet flyers in the area. What kit was the F86? Buds is also a good field but like all club fields, it has its issues and people concerns
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:32 AM
  #30
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

Now I'm not a jet flyer but reading this gave me an idea. Why not beat the president to the punch? Make a proposal at the next club meeting to ban lipos in any aircraft carrying fuel. Hell go on and on about the dangers of lipos and how one could ignite gas or kerosene and cause you to lose the club. That would take the focus off of the jets and also maybe get some of the gas guys on your side because you will both share some common ground.
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:19 AM
  #31
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

Had a similar thing in my club, the secretary didn't get his way on an unrelated issue
so he targeted the jet flyers who were his main opposition.

Check out the JPO website & make the statistics on jets work in favour of your argument, do
the math from their data & the fact is the chances of a turbine model flight ending in a crash fire
is four one hundredths of one percent. If you want a copy of our argument PM me.

And remember, sometimes it's necessary to become a members of a club's committee to keep
the evil doers from doing their evil, if you are the type of person who doesn't want to get involved
with what's happening your apathy will get the last laugh. - John.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:15 AM
  #32
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

Whoa, hold on just a minute here.

You flew a jet at a field with a bunch of empty fire extinguishers and now you wonder why people don't want you there? Does your pre flight include any checks to determine whether or not you could have put out a kero fire if there was one? Sure, the lipos may have caused it this time, but it appears as though you have had a near miss that can be learned from. An empty fire extinguisher is a pretty easy thing to spot. Don't blame the safety guy for a pilot's lack of risk management - his decision to either fly under circumstances where he can not do so safely, or where he fails to assure himself that the gear he needs to do so is in good condition.

Righteo - bring on the flames...
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:32 AM
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

No flames needed, only way to adress this whole issue is to carry your own fully charged extinguisher.

Mike
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:49 AM
  #34
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: yojoelay

Whoa, hold on just a minute here.

You flew a jet at a field with a bunch of empty fire extinguishers and now you wonder why people don't want you there? Does your pre flight include any checks to determine whether or not you could have put out a kero fire if there was one? Sure, the lipos may have caused it this time, but it appears as though you have had a near miss that can be learned from. An empty fire extinguisher is a pretty easy thing to spot. Don't blame the safety guy for a pilot's lack of risk management - his decision to either fly under circumstances where he can not do so safely, or where he fails to assure himself that the gear he needs to do so is in good condition.

Righteo - bring on the flames...
I was not at the Field at the time. It was another jet flyer. He did have his own but one was not enough. The club did still have one full one but after they tried the 2 empty ones they had to go back and get the other 2 the club has and by them it spread into a big circle. I have a few fire extinguishers since we replace them every 6 months in our full scale aircraft I take the throw aways home and have them all over the place. But the jet flyer did have his own fire bottle but it was not enough because the grass fire spread into a circle by the time they made it to the fire. It was a small fire but in a big circle. I have not checked all the clubs fire bottles before flight. Why would some one put an empty fire extinguisher back into the rack and not say something? But I guess some people do.Thats another reason why we got a fire cart with 4 -10 gallon water extinguishers. I will check them on first flight of the day now.

Bottom line is this was a problem with having adequte fire extinguishers for a fire no matter what caused it. It is not at all related to a turbine other then it just happend to be a turbine that crashed with lipos in it. The feild was not properly equiped to handle ANY fire. But such a small problem can cause big ones for us jet guys.

Thanks for all the comments guys. I really wish the AMA could help with some way with the minorities like helis,jets and the 3D guys. Its funny on weekdays when the grumpy guys fly we all know they leave at 10:00 in the morning so we just wait them out and then the jets IMAC and helicopters show up.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:00 AM
  #35
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: essyou35

Now in Florida, where there are 100 or so, there is no excuse. Next year pledge to not buy a new jet, and instead pool your money, build a field, and ban EVERYTHING except turbines.

It seems so simple but seems no one ever wants to do anything except complain.

Joining together, setting a plan, even if a 5 year plan, this is how things get done.
Yes, but the 100 or so jet pilots are spread out. Florida is 400 miles long, but not very wide, except at the I-10 from the Pan Handle to JAX. I belong to Ocala, and drive 100 miles one way to go fly my jets for the day. I have not ruled out moving to Ocala, but not sure that I want to move my life, home, etc for an unstable Officer BOD. As Gunradd said, there are only a few of us at Ocala. I live too far to make the meetings. I have also belonged to Cape Coral, and again drove 100 miles one way. All three of these fields that I have belong to, Cape Coral had the most jet guys at 27. SPARKS, there is only 4 active jet fliers, and a few others that are turbine qualified, but not actively owning or flying them. I am not leaving my home field in St. Pete, due to any issues that the Officers' or BOD have on turbines. I want to fly bigger planes then the airspace will comfortably handle. They actually support turbines, even though there is only one turbine guy as the Officer. They see all r/c aircraft as the same rights to the field, which is nice. There is one BOD member, Ken E. that is a very stable member of the Club, and always bring reasoning to the meetings. So, yes, it would be nice to gaither all of us turbine guys and start a field. Another issue in Florida in the congestive areas, land becomes a problem to find. Most fields are going to government owned land.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:03 AM
  #36
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ORIGINAL: flyinfool1


Bottom line is If you don't like how things are, get involved, become an officer or at least be one of the people that ALWAYS shows up for work parties. Become someone that the club values to much to risk loosing.
Been there, done that, and now tired of the fight. Being the Officer is a thankless job that started to ruine my hobby.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:06 AM
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ORIGINAL: invertmast

Ugh.. i hate to hear this, especially since I may be moving to the sarasota/bradenton area in the next few months.. []
You will be alright. Sarasota Club is pro jet, pro-scale, beautiful runway on top of "Mount Trashmore", but a small airspace for the high performance jets. Some of the "Breakfast Club" are a little rough.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:15 AM
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ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

No flames needed, only way to adress this whole issue is to carry your own fully charged extinguisher.

Mike
Cape Coral requires turbine pilots to have both extinquisher, water and CO2. PLUS, they now have a 4 wheel drive Gator of some sort with all kinds of water pumps. Ocala has now just bought a Gator too. If you live out of the State of Florida, you may not be aware, but we are going into our drought season until next spring. When the burn rate goes up, to ususally around 500, turbines are normally grounded per county. One jet field may be in the "high fire" danger county, while another one may not. I thought it was crazy to have to carry two extinquishers, but I do. Could help.
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:30 AM
  #39
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

If 3 out of 4 club owned extinguishers were empty there was obviously some past fires put out. I'm assuming from electric powered aircraft running lipos? How was the situation or situations handled in the past by the club?
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:35 AM
  #40
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Dieselman1220

If 3 out of 4 club owned extinguishers were empty there was obviously some past fires put out. I'm assuming from electric powered aircraft running lipos? How was the situation or situations handled in the past by the club?
As a member of Ocala, I can't truly answer it. Ocala is a beautiful field on Florida government land. They allow primitive camping for it's members, and have had a couple events this fall, with camping. Usually a large turn out of campers. The extinquishers could have innocently been emptied by a guest camper to the event putting his camp fire out for the night. I am not there enough to know, and maybe Gunradd knows?
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:42 AM
  #41
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying


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ORIGINAL: ira d

As I said in the other thread this is type of thing is going on everywhere and seems to be on the increase in the last couple of years, Because
of the speed and weight of some jets I can understand the need for specific turbine rules, However the same should apply to other large non
turbine models as well and also any other high performace models.
What cracks me up is that we account for less than 1% of any mishaps or crashes.. but we get most of the bad publicity...
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:50 AM
  #42
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

At our club we insist on each pilot having a Co2 extinguisher for start up fires. Experience has taught us that for putting out fuel fires from a crashed jet, a foam extinguisher is the best bet and the club has seveal of these dotted around the flight line. Fortunately we do not have crops to contend with. Lipo fires are another challenge as there is often little that can be done to stop the lipos burning once it has started to do so, but once again foam has proved to be effective is stopping the fire spreading through the rest off the model and the surrounding grassland.
Good luck with the club situation. It is one we all know well.
John
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:33 AM
  #43
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

Just my two cents here , Jet guys fly some of the most expensive planes , why do'nt we all get together build a club just for jets and ban all others . This would solve the problem . I hate the fact one shows up at the club with his expensive toy and all the other non jet people speak about how dangerous jets are when they know nothing about them. They speak with such authority that some of the others beleive them . I have this problem most of the time and have to spend so much time convincing people that this is safer that some of the gassers they fly without a fire extiguisher present . I think gassers need the fire extinguisher as much as we do yet no one complain about them. JETS ARE NOT ANY MORE DANGEROUS THAN ANY OTHER RC AIRPLANE OR HELI> The reality is that we are going to always have people commenting about things they are ignorant about especially those who are members of the clubs for a long time and seem to think the club should have only trainers and slow planes to suit them . Step away from the norm and your are dangerous whether it be a fast EDF, turbine Jet etc.

This is my opinion and the reality I live every jet flying day.

Lets all continue flying our jets with pride
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:51 AM
  #44
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ORIGINAL: Squirrelboyblue

Just my two cents here , Jet guys fly some of the most expensive planes , why do'nt we all get together build a club just for jets and ban all others . ........

Because there's not enough in one place to do it.

I live close to Pittsburgh PA (big town) and there's only 4 or 5 guys around. SO... we drive.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:02 AM
  #45
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: yojoelay

Whoa, hold on just a minute here.

You flew a jet at a field with a bunch of empty fire extinguishers and now you wonder why people don't want you there? Does your pre flight include any checks to determine whether or not you could have put out a kero fire if there was one? Sure, the lipos may have caused it this time, but it appears as though you have had a near miss that can be learned from. An empty fire extinguisher is a pretty easy thing to spot. Don't blame the safety guy for a pilot's lack of risk management - his decision to either fly under circumstances where he can not do so safely, or where he fails to assure himself that the gear he needs to do so is in good condition.

Righteo - bring on the flames...

Well, you can second guess what could have happened all day long... The bottom line is , no one can predict the out come af a fire situation regardless of the ignition source. Way to many variables. All's you can do is the best you can do with what you have to work with and call for help if you need it. Calling for help is not a weakness, It show good judgement. The fire extinguishers we all have are to deal with fires on start-up and situations in the pits... To think a man can run across a field and put out a grass fire with one fire extinguisher is silly. Again too many variables in the situation.. Distance, wind, vegetation, ground moisture, etc..... All's you can do is do all you can to prevent, and deal with it if it happens, and call for help if you need it...


Danno



Give these guys a call, they'll take care of it !!!
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:31 AM
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

Thanks everyone for sharing. I am the type who wants to try everything in model aviation and after 42 years or so i am finally getting my jet. But I have seen everything you all describe while progressing through heli's and 3d and IMAC and high performance EDF. Haters gonna hate... I thought it was just CA since I moved here 18 years ago but I guess the mean old men are everywhere. That you cannot change without TLC and time.
Two of the clubs I fly at ban jets during the dry months so I actually thought they were more prone to starting fires but the Lipo's are really the big problem. I once started a grass fire when a Lipo powered ARF I had shed a wing and went in. But we put it out quick. That club had good equipment and I recharged and refilled the gear that day. I think if the club has a dry grass problem fire extinguishing equip should be on hand and I will get involved as of now in ensuring that. I think it should be up to the club to pay but if the jet guys or IMAC have to chip in more to get the ball rolling it would be a gesture of goodwill. And the right thing to do.
I would love to know how many clubs have been shut down as a direct result of a fire. I have seen dozens of clubs shut down but never for that.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:38 AM
  #47
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjetsaok


Quote:
ORIGINAL: yojoelay

Whoa, hold on just a minute here.

The bottom line is , no one can predict the out come af a fire situation regardless of the ignition source. Way to many variables. All's you can do is the best you can do with what you have to work with and call for help if you need it. Calling for help is not a weakness, It show good judgement.
To think a man can run across a field and put out a grass fire with one fire extinguisher is silly. Again too many variables in the situation.. Distance, wind, vegetation, ground moisture, etc..... All's you can do is do all you can to prevent, and deal with it if it happens, and call for help if you need it...

Danno
Exactly!!! Calling the Fire Department really isn't that big of a deal in the emergency. After all, that is why we all pay taxes is to have emergency service at our call. As Gunradd said earlier, that it gave the Jr Firemen training. I am tired of the Guy's who say, " we could loose the field over this"! Well, not really! Here in St. Pete, the fire department is actually at our entrance and you have to go through their parking lot to get into the field's gate. Everyone of our Officers and BOD are worried that if a plane hits the building, we loose our field, and as an Officer or BOD, that is their responsibility too, as much as the pilot operating the plane. Truth be told, as per one of the Capt, they are more concerned about their new car getting hit, then the fire department building.
Along this story, a couple years back, I was at the field, and a 100cc IMAC plane came out to fly. The guy went out of bounds and hit the electric pole transformer in the Fire Department's parking lot on final to land!! Put about 12,500 people out of electric for a few hours, while they changed the transformer out. The Club never heard a peep about it! Just too many out there that live under "The sky is falling mentallity in life". I agree to be prepared to understand consequences of flying the larger planes and turbines, and the responsibility to understand that death can come from them, but if your hit by a .40 size plane in the head, you will still probably be dead.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:55 AM
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying


Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCFlyerDan

.... and a 100cc IMAC plane came out to fly. The guy went out of bounds and hit the electric pole transformer in the Fire Department's parking lot on final to land!! Put about 12,500 people out of electric for a few hours,.....
WOW 12,500 people on one pole transformer

That must have been one big transformer
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:01 AM
  #49
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCISFUN


Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCFlyerDan

.... and a 100cc IMAC plane came out to fly. The guy went out of bounds and hit the electric pole transformer in the Fire Department's parking lot on final to land!! Put about 12,500 people out of electric for a few hours,.....
WOW 12,500 people on one pole transformer

That must have been one big transformer
Yes it is, I guess? But, we do know that for a fact from the guys fixing it. I was down around talking to them. Remember, congestion of Florida and St. Pete. It is an inner city flying field. Like I have said in my other forum, this is why I am looking to move. It is a tight field, especially landing left to right, with the runway end pointed directly at the fire department.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:19 AM
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Default RE: The politics of jet flying

I really think that the truth is somewhere in the middle on this.

Remember, we are all part of a flying community. We need to ensure that whatever we introduce does not negatively impact the community as a whole.
Our group recently lost a flying field because a new guy came in an significantly violated the AMA rules. He felt like he was exercising his rights. And he was.
But, in the process, he was not being considerate of the community, and we all suffered due to his arrogance.

We should all do our best do demonstrate the highest level of professionalism, respect for others, and safety. ESPECIALLY when we are introducing new technology to a flying community.
It appears to me that the original poster may not have been as diligent as he could have been with respect to his preparation and pre-flight. Even though his was a LiPo fire. I suspect that the kerosene acted as an accellerant.
Verifying sufficient fire fighting equipment was his responsibility.

This requires patience and discretion from the guy who is introducing the new thing, whatever it is.


Food for thought,
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