luv2flyrc

My Feedback: (6)

edited

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

When you pay full price up-front, you lose all control.

I think there are enough of you guys who buy jets from China to force a change in the way you do business with the manufacturers. Just say, "NO, I won't pay you ANYTHING until the model is ready to be shipped, and proof of readied shipping documents are provided." Of course you still have to worry about broken items being sent (cracked canopy, frame, etc.)

Make the purchase under your terms, OR else there is no purchase. They will begin to understand when they don't get orders under their terms.

All they want is your money. Once they have that, their service is non-existent. Haven't you noticed that?
Damn! You don't even get emails from them after that. OR you wait weeks for an evasive answer, or a BS excuse of being too busy!

Demand better, or just stop buying.

DrScoles

My Feedback: (18)

So the timing is the major gripe? I thought it would be the quality. I am ok with the wait, I had to wait almost a year to get a Mig from skymaster that was undamaged! Personally, I want quality. I am more than willing to pay more to get better quality. Unfortunately, the "quality" jet makers don't make the jets I want. I have a bobcat and a bandit, had a eurosport and rookie, BVM or CARF don't have any flavors that appeal to me right now. I wish we could pay a little more to get a kit out of asia that was built better. I don't have the time or skills to build a kit. I paid $5k for a kit (with gear) that needed extensive reinforcing, servo covers looked like they were for a different plane, new pipe, the gear was gorgeous, but only one of the three would cycle. Sent to down and locked for conversion. I haven't tested to see if all the gear door cylinders hold air.. that will be a crappy surprise if they don't. Someone's R&D comment above makes sense, but this jet is an older kit!

I'm a few years away from another jet kit, hopefully things will turn around by then!

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

Unless they were stocked IN the us and shipped by a reputable dealer (not one of the manu's in house guy), then yea i think they would sell well. But if they couldnt do the above two mentioned things, what is the difference than what they do now? Not much imo

Another thing that is frustrating is the lack if pricing on allot of this stuff. What is so hard about putting the price online with the airplane? I hate wasting my time and someone elses having to email for a price on multiple models to see what is affordable, or how much longer i need to wait, just to find out later the price has gone up, or 2 weeks ago it was on sale.

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Buy the jet through BVM, and shipped from BVM ... Not ordered from BVM and shipped from China.

It doesn't take 18 weeks to build a jet. That just indicates to me that China jet manufacturers are having labor problems (can't keep employees, or hiring inept help).

Besides, the jet should cost less. They are charging USA prices while building at China costs. They could never sell their jets in China at USA prices.

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

BINGO !!!!!


I've got a buddy who just moved to China for his job. (overlooking stuff from Westinghouse) Once he gets settled in... He's going to go to some of these factories to see what the "Local" price is.

warbird addict

I also prepaid for a plane "Not a Jet" that was new or prerelease with a projected 4 week ship date and waited over a year for it and when it became available it showed up as sold out and I got dragged thru a knothole backwards to get mine as the retailers were getting theirs first, they tried to put me on the back burner but with enough persistance I finally managed to get my bird, but the message was very clear, never order anything that isn't already in stock and you can verify that one is earmarked for delivery to you.
wholesalers will always satisfy their larger orders first even if that order came in after yours and it means kicking your order to the backburner to wait another 16 weeks for the next container/s to show up and clear customs etc and thats only if and when the big players orders are satisfied first

dadragon

I dont understand,if the local hobby shops dont carry the product you seek why not find a different project or build your own.

dubd

Cost of living in China is more expensive than you would think. The middle class and wealthy are paying the same as we do.

jetster81

Hooray! as it should be.

DrScoles

My Feedback: (18)

There are a few chinese companies that care about customer service. While not a jet, I wanted a specific big gasser aerobatic plane. Nobody in the US had it. I emailed pilot r/c. He replied "don't have any in stock, I can have it ready to ship in 8 working days." I'm thinking... yeah right. My buddy had a similar experience, so I paypal'd the money. I had pics in 5 days, and it was DHL'd to my house in 3 more. Granted this is not as complex as a fiberglass jet, but he built it for me and beat his deadline! The quality was amazing. No way I could build or cover a model that well. Perfect packaging, literally not one wrinkle on the covering. I think Pilot R/C is the BVM of the far East!

LGM Graphix

My Feedback: (22)

You lost me on that one dude. Buy through BVM, ship through BVM, and the jet should cost less? Charging USA prices while building at China costs? If the Skymaster jets that BVM sells were being sold at BVM prices (or what you call USA prices) they would all be double the money easily. An Ultra Bandit sells for what, just under $12,000USD? Skymasters biggest most complex jets don't sell for even half that price. BVM's F100 kit was around $7000, for a KIT, Skymasters F100 is what, around $4000 as an ARF with the gear, pipe, tanks etc?

I hardly see the chinese charging USA prices, but then you're not getting USA quality either. Having said that, you don't always get USA quality with USA kits either.

I don't have an issue with waiting for a product or paying for it up front IF there are a couple of conditions met.

1. You do have a clear idea of WHEN it will ship period.
2. IF there are delays, THE MANUFACTURE CALLS YOU to let you know the expected wait increase.


When I ordered my JMP Firebird, it was paid for in full up front. I know JMP is a small operation and money up front helps immensely for both their manufacturing costs and their confidence that a buyer isn't going to back out half way through manufacturing. I also know Tom Cook to be just about the most stand up manufacture in the industry.
Anyway, I ordered the Firebird and was told approximately 4 weeks. Tom kept in touch with me to know how things were going, and nearing the 4 week part he had to call and tell me that the company that does the spun aluminum bell mouths for the pipes had sent him the wrong ones. I was disappointed because I was super excited about the jet, but the fact is, Tom CALLED me to tell me that the parts were wrong. It then took longer than expected to get the correct bell mouths, but again, TOM KEPT ME IN THE LOOP. I didn't have to call him to say "hey, have you heard anything?"

The simple fact is, in life things happen, I am guilty of falling behind on Paint projects from time to time, there is typically a very valid reason when I do fall behind and I TRY to keep my customers notified when things happen. The difference between custom work and manufacturing though, is in my game, you can run into problems just when stripping the paint and you find rust, or damage etc, when manufacturing new, everything SHOULD be sorted, and known how much time it will take to build. However, even then, problems arise. In my business, I would say 80% of my projects are finished on schedule or ahead of schedule. I think if the Chinese jet manufactures could even claim an 80% efficiency rate there would not be that big of a problem when things go wrong.

If I ordered a plane from any manufacture and accepted their terms on delivery, that is when I would expect it. If the manufacture has a problem and keeps me informed of the issue, I can be extremely patient. If I have to hound the manufacture for information that is when I will cancel the order, or be very upset about it.

It's not just chinese, the absolute worst service and most ridiculous wait I've ever had in this hobby was from a US manufacture, I won't name name's, but I'll certainly never use them again. I've even been waiting now for over 3 months for replies to an airplane I was interested in from a US manufacture, but they can't even be bothered to respond. As such, I guess I'll never buy their product either.

I'm just glad there are still some manufactures out there like JMP that still know they will not exist without happy customers and they go out of their way to ensure that their customers are happy!

luv2flyrc

My Feedback: (6)

Jeremy,

This is quite simply: a poor business practice. The manufacturer may "agree" to your two conditions but, if he fails to live up to them, you have NO recourse. I don't believe you are that naive and you must know that you are asking to be ripped off

Ask yourself this: In what other area of your life would you consider to pay up front for something that a contractor had to build for you? Would you purchase a house like this? How about a renovation? Quite likely you wouldn't even pay a guy up front to build you a deck? correct?

And the reason that you wouldn't is because despite all the contractor's wonderful promises, you would be giving away all your leverage in case the deal goes sour. No reputable business would even ask you to take this kind of risk.

There's nothing wrong with a 20% to 50% deposit to guarantee the sale and cover cost of manufacture but, why should you pay the company's profit up front? All their incentive to get the job done right and on time goes right out the window.

Mike

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Yes, if you want a skymaster jet, then buy it from BVM. That way, you have assurance that BVM inspected the kit, it is complete, and you can get it within the week. Otherwise, you run the risk of delays, lies, and broken or missing items if ordered/shipped from China. BVM will sell it at the same price. Plus, you have an AMERICAN dealer who could provide service or support. But if BVM has to deal with China woes too, then this isn't worth getting involved with, or buying.

From SM website:
F-100 (painted) = 2195 or 1695 unpainted
Landing gear = 795
Air kit = 195.00
Kevlar Fuel Tank Cell $ 135.00 (should be part of the kit as far as I'm concerned)
Hardware set $ 55.00 (REALLY!? Extra? ... Should be part of the kit as far as I'm concerned)
Cylinder set for gear doors $ 55.00
Cockpit for F-100 $ 395.00 (w/o Pilots) - Ameature job

So far: $3825
Add shipping ($250-300)

Then add turbine, electronics, valves, etc, and we are up @ $7500 - $8000
dual wall Exhaust pipe $ 165.00
Fiber Carbon by-pass $ 75.00

F-16:
kit = 2200 or 2350 painted
Landing Gear for F-16 $2295.00 (waaaaaay too pricey!)
Air Kit for F-16 1/6 $ 175.00 (should be part of the LG setup)
Kevlar Fuel Tank Cell $ 185.00 (should be part of the kit)
Hardware for F-16 1/6 $ 65.00 (should be part of the kit)
Cylinder set for gear Doors $ 75.00
Cockpit w/o pilot $ 395.00
Ordinance Set $ 395.00 (unpainted) $ 495.00 (painted)
Speed Brake system installed $ 395.00

The F-16 comes in @ $6,000 ... This isn't cheap!!! Then add your turbine, electronics, +, +, +, + ....

No matter who they are, I'd never put money up-front. These Chinese manufacturers are notorious for empty promises. If all you need is an email or phone call from the seller telling you there is a 3 month delay, then that is foolish on your part. There is NEVER a valid reason for extended delays. I'd never accept an excuse for extended delays. It would only be an EXCUSE and a lie. If anyone believes they need to help, or want to "help" the manufacturer with their production costs by putting the money up-front, they are being foolish as far as I'm concerned. Manufacturers don't need help, they just want your money. They have more money than you!!!! If I'm paying that much money, I want it now.

Product now = cash now.

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

+10 +++++++
Well said! Just that I still would not put 50% up-front.

DrScoles

My Feedback: (18)

[quote]ORIGINAL: Airplanes400

Yes, if you want a skymaster jet, then buy it from BVM. That way, you have assurance that BVM inspected the kit, it is complete, and you can get it within the week. Otherwise, you run the risk of delays, lies, and broken or missing items if ordered/shipped from China. BVM will sell it at the same price. Plus, you have an AMERICAN dealer who could provide service or support. But if BVM has to deal with China woes too, then this isn't worth getting involved with, or buying.


Just want to confirm, you think that if we order a skymaster jet through BVM that they will inspect it? BVM did help with my damaged plane, but it was a long convoluted mess. It took months for them to decide to make me a new kit, then months to have it made. Both times it looked like a third grader did the packaging. My bobcat from BVM was packaged like someone from apple designed the boxes... Same with the pilot r/c sbach. the mig looked like they put it in a box, then looked around the shop for packing materials and threw them in. Not a surprise that the first one was damaged.

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Well, if BVM is also subject to the woes of skymaster just as anyone else is, there is no protection. The buyer is at the mercy of the game.
Thanks for that enlightenment.

So, a person thinks they protect themselves by paying for their jet with paypal. The manufacturer tells you there is an 8 week lead-time on production/shipment. At the end of the eight weeks (60 days) your paypal protection to recover your money expires. Now you have no jet, no money, and no way to recover your money through paypal. Then you get notice there will be additional delays ... long delays. You are powerless. All you can hope for is to get your plane some day. Then it arrives damaged. You have no protection, just endless emails that lead to you waiting, and waiting ... hoping things will work out. Not a risk I want to take. Especially after reading that the planes/jets are poorly packed, and hearing all the frustrations that others went through. Not to mention the questionable construction...

Not for me !!

My time is worth the extra money that BVM charges. And the unmatched quality of BVM. BVM jets just go together right. Build one ... you will see.

dubd

BVM planes are amazing (I have a UB and F-100 in my fleet), but their airframe options are limited, so they are not the end all be all. Until BVM makes planes that were not decommissioned before I was born, I will also buy from other manufacturers, Chinese or otherwise.

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

First hand experiece. I have a BVM F-4, Maverick (2), and a Bandit. Also had two Aggressors, an F-86, and an F-16. All built by me except for one of the Mavericks. Also have an F-86 in the box. Does that qualify?

Back to the subject ... 16 weeks is an unacceptable time frame to wait for a plane ... especially when someone paid for it in advance. I'd rather be flying my trusty and decomissioned BVM's for 16 weeks than wait 16 weeks for a jet from China.

DrScoles

My Feedback: (18)

My time is worth the extra money that BVM charges. And the unmatched quality of BVM. BVM jets just go together right. Build one ... you will see.
[/quote]

BVM planes are amazing (I have a UB and F-100 in my fleet), but their airframe options are limited, so they are not the end all be all. Until BVM makes planes that were not decommissioned before I was born, I will also buy from other manufacturers, Chinese or otherwise.

[/quote]


Ding Ding Ding, Johnny, tell him what he's won! Guys, this is a sellers market. There just aren't enough people in the world to buy these $15-20K toys.... Unless the hobby blows up, I think we're stuck. I would kill to buy an F-14 from BVM, the only way I can do that in the near future is buying the one from them made by skymaster.

FenderBean

Man so much for the x-mas spirits so much negative vibes these days

hooker53

My Feedback: (106)

Plus one Fender!! Wink. Ha.

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

We are all like crack junkies. We want to quit but we end up buying Chinese stuff.

dubd

That pretty much sums up American consumers in general.

roger.alli

Oh I can assure you that this is not just an American issue..