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  1. #1
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Hi guys I am finally bringing my Norbert Rauch fiberglass parts for a DC-8 (I've had them for about 2 years) into use by starting an earnest attempt to get the project off the ground. I know there are a few of us here in the states who have built these or are in the process. The one I know that has been completed and flown was an IL-62 made by Lonnie from Southern California. He did the maiden flight off of a dry lake bed some time ago but I'm not sure what has come of it. And there have been a few others started - 727's, MD-80's, etc. I would venture to guess there are many more world wide projects out there.

    For those contemplating these... you already know that each one of these airliners is a custom build affair. These are not kits, they are a few key parts to base a project on, using a small set of drawings showing dimensions and foam core airfoils and sizes for the various model. The real value is the fiberglass parts, as they do bring a level of assistance to those who have not scratch built before in terms of the proper nose form and tail portion of the fuselage. These days I don't think there is much to worry about in so far as there not being specific "plans" available, however, as there are ways to plan ahead with this type of build. What I've done to plan the build is to use Google Sketchup program (free program online) to make my own set of drawings for flight controls, power plants, and general support equipment placement and design. I imported a few crude "factory type" 3 view drawings into Sketchup and then working with Rauch's hand drawings I sorted out the components and designed the drawings to get an idea of what sub assemblies I'd need to make. Stuff like Landing Gear mount rails, that mount to spar systems that carry the wing tubes, etc. I decided to make the wings plug-in at the fuselage, etc. It's also easy to visualize how to mount servos, flaps, ailerons, gear doors, etc when you have all the dimensions and drawings in front of you. As of today these drawings are fluid and in progress for this project. Earlier I had made several other projects using the Sketchup program to get used to it - and when I realized I still had these great DC-8 parts laying around, I knew should indeed get started on the DC-8 plans and the actual build.

    One of the first areas of dilemma to me was the fact that these were designed around using 1mm balsa sheeting. That's close to 1/32" but a little larger. I was going back and forth on weather to use 1/16" or 1/32" sheet. For the DC-8-61 (my project) I'm going to be using approximately 8800 square inches of sheeting between the wing/tail skins and the long fuselage skins. The 1/16 size is 108" wing and 142" fuselage. I venture to guess 1/16 or 1/32" will make a difference in project weight! I'm not so concerned about the strength of 1/32" sheet being much less than 1mm sheet, but I am concerned about how much head room I have to sand between wing / fuselage panels. 1/32" is not a lot of material, and invariably I'll be adding filler to seams more than sanding to blend seams like I may be able to with 1/16" balsa. I still haven't made a decision on that yet.

    So anyone reading this is probably at least interested in passing. If any of you out there have a Rauch airliner project in any stages of development, build or operation, please add your comments to this thread so we can get some up to date progress reports from everyone.
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  2. #2
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    A quick drawing of the nose retract installation that I put into Sketchup. Initial stages, no servo mount shown for steering and no servo mount and linkage for nose gear doors. Planning electric retracts as shown, Robart 555 for nose gear.
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  3. #3
    3 turn spin's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    I would go with the 1/16 sheeting. I can’t imagine trying to edge gluing 1/32 sheeting. Make sure you use contest grade balsa (4-7 lbs per cubic ft) for the weight and ease of sanding. Once you edge glue the sheeting, you can place it on flat surface and sand with a T-bar to thin it down a little. I have had good luck with National Balsa.

    http://www.nationalbalsa.com/Aero_Light_Balsa_s/20.htm

  4. #4
    cactusflyer's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Eddie,

    The obvious answer is to use 1/20 balsa! I did a search and found these guys who sell 1/20 sheets:

    http://www.specializedbalsa.com/prod...lsa_sheets.php

    The free flight guys use 1/20 stuff. Honestly, I would just use 1/16 Sig Contest Balsa and sand it really smooth after its glued on the foam. You may be surprised at how much you take off with just sanding to get a smooth hull line.

    Tailwinds,

    John
    Proud to be a rookie!

  5. #5
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    See, I knew you guys would be all over this stuff. I'm glad I bothered to snarf about the balsa... because both of you are right about the width and the source for the 1/20 sheet and 1/16" sheet is also very decent. I like their prices on the wider sheets too, that will cut down on my edge glue work. Always a good thing!
    Freedom is Flying

  6. #6
    NickC5FE's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Alright Eddie! I am subscribed!
    I Fly FREDex
    The C-5M Super Galaxy project

  7. #7

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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    I have been building the 727 for years, I start and stop, and go back and forth, but finally have something that looks like an airliner. I used the 1/16 balsa to sheet mine. I sheeted the foam tube (fuse) with two large sheets which I had built using 4" wide planks. which I had sanded. I wet them with ammonia and held them in place with giant rubber bands while the glue set up. The fuse is very rigid and strong. I glassed this and then attached the tail and nose sections. Where they joined I layed up a few layers of fiberglass cloth to reinforce the joint. A little filler and lots of sanding made a very nice transition and you cannot tell where the two meet.
    The rauch plans leave a lot to the imagination and requires some building skills, and it is not for the someone who is not interested in complexity. At this point I am happy with the results and one day soon I plan on getting the paint on her and getting her in the air. The scale and size of these planes is just right. I can't wait to see how you progress I am sure yours will go much faster than mine. I am tuned in and watching,

  8. #8
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Doc:Please pose some pix.. Im sure Eddie wouldn't care. If I were to break down and do one, My favorite is the 727.I like the old TWA scheme.
    AMA #70046 Jet Junkie!

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  9. #9

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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Hi Eddie, I purchased some 1/20 balsa from Lonestar-Balsa for my Rauch project (the MD-11). I hope to start working on it after the holidays. I think (for me) the biggest challenge with this project will be deciding on how (or which method to use) for attaching the wings .... and the associated support structure for the wing tubes.

    I think I (and perhaps you) will be spending more time pondering the various construction options/methods and infrastructure options ..... than the actual building of the airframe. I ran into a few build threads on Rauch projects from some modelers in Germany. I will find them and post them ..... as they will give you some ideas .... (more options to ponder ....).

    Bob
    \" This plan is way too ingenious to fail for the fourth time ..... \"

  10. #10
    invertmast's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    I've been debating on purchasing the DC-10 parts to do a KC-10.. so you guys have my attention!
    Thomas W.
    Euro-sport Evo, Scratch built 1/7 F-14D Tomcat, 26.5% Gee Bee R2

  11. #11
    mr_matt's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    I just sheeted a rocket glider wing with 1/32, it is surprisingly strong. I glued the edges together the same way I would 1/16, sanded, it worked out fine. Of course I did vacuum bag to the cores, and it was just a simple wing but it is plenty strong.
    Matt

  12. #12
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    This is great guys! Any and all ideas and other projects that you guys would like to post about these airliners, PLEASE DO SO. I don't want anyone to think this is a specific build thread. I will post my build pics here, but maybe we can all keep ourselves motivated to not only start these projects but to maiden them.

    As far as wing mounting systems, I agree it's one of the big questions. There are many options. My thoughts run the gamut from a simple 2 piece wing that detaches at the center and mounts to the fuselage like any simple large model... to a 2 piece wing that detaches at the fuselage sides. I've also considered and looked closely at a 2 piece wing that detaches at the main landing gear mounts (the inboard wing is fixed to the fuse and is no wider than the aft stabilizers - this option makes for easy assembly at the field). But I think I'm favoring a 2 piece plug in wing where the wing panels start at the fuselage sides. Wing tubes - a root rib and a false rib at the end of the tubes is a good option with backup spars over the top and bottom of the tube. Attachment options can be simple clamp fittings mounted in the fuselage on a couple equipment formers. Those would clamp onto the carbon fiber tubes like on a lot of the ARF's.

    The other question is 2 or 1 piece fuselage, and removable stabs or not. It can get pretty complex and each mounting system is going to add weight. I like the idea of a smaller vehicle required to transport the model though. A 1 piece fuselage at 142" would be great during the build but I doubt I would ever be happy with that after the build!


    ORIGINAL: mr_matt

    I just sheeted a rocket glider wing with 1/32, it is surprisingly strong. I glued the edges together the same way I would 1/16, sanded, it worked out fine. Of course I did vacuum bag to the cores, and it was just a simple wing but it is plenty strong.
    I scratch built a 60" Convair 580 and later a P-3 Orion using 1/32 balsa laminate over foam core about 10 - 12 years ago and they were incredibly strong and light. 1/32" is great and provides plenty of tensile strength. But I was pretty careful about sanding transitions and was using 400 grit! The old article for the Convair 580: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ht=Convair+580
    Freedom is Flying

  13. #13
    YellowAircraft's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Matt,

    Have you ever vacuumed a big wing, like something the size of a Y/A big Hornet?
    Yellow Aircraft, JetCat Engines and Turn Key Jets
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  14. #14
    mr_matt's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft

    Matt,

    Have you ever vacuumed a big wing, like something the size of a Y/A big Hornet?

    Yes but only to put balsa wing skins on, I have not done a glass layup that big yet (no balsa skins but an engineered fabric layup right over the core)

    EDIT I am not sure that you get anything stronger by gluing skins on in a bag, but you can use a lot less glue and still get good adhesion, so it is lighter, because of the reduced amount of glue.
    Matt

  15. #15
    YellowAircraft's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Hi,

    I am contemplating using a plastic peel for a smooth finish.
    Yellow Aircraft, JetCat Engines and Turn Key Jets
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  16. #16

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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft

    Hi,

    I am contemplating using a plastic peel for a smooth finish.
    Did you mean Peel Ply.

    It works great leaves a great finish and helps remove the waste resin.

    I found 10 yards for 40.00 shipped 6 months ago on Ebay.


  17. #17
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    I've heard of this too. Works best for flat surfaces. I'm thinking airliner fuselage center sections and wings would be really good candidates. The second link describes the difference between peel ply types.

    http://www.clcboats.com/shoptips/epo...se-fabric.html

    http://www.cstsales.com/peel-plies.html

    http://www.cramerfabrics.com/products/peel-ply
    Freedom is Flying

  18. #18
    invertmast's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013


    ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft

    Hi,

    I am contemplating using a plastic peel for a smooth finish.

    I've done it before and it works AWESOME!

    You have to use a .014" mylar film though. Depending on the sharpness of the Leading edge, it may or may not wrap around it nicely. I had this issue on a speed 400 style pylon racer I vac. bagged some 1K spread tow carbon fiber onto. I cut the mylars to the shape of the wing panels, then edge'd the LE's together and ran some clear packing tape down it. the mylars were then waxed with some Partall #7 paste wax. I then painted the mylars.

    The some wax paper was sprayed with 3m77 spray adhesive VERY lightly. This wax paper was a little longer than the wing panel. this was placed onto the CF cloth (3m sprayed side touching the CF). Then this "stack" of wax paper/CF was cut so it was one piece of CF that went from the TE of the wing panel, wrapped around the LE and then back to the TE of the wing panel (again, once continuous piece!). Then the bare CF side was covered in mixed epoxy and fully wetted out (i intentionally let the resin build up on the CF cloth more than necessary). After it was wet out, I took some paper towel and blotted up the excess resin.

    Then the wet CF side was placed down onto the painted mylars and the edges all aligned. Then the wax paper was removed. Then the wing pas placed onto the mylar/CF stack with the TE's aligned. The other (top) part of the mylar was folded over onto the top of the wing. The whole thing then had 3 layers of paper towels put on top and bottom of the wing mylars. It was then placed in a vacuum bag and the entire "stack' of stuff placed in the foam shucks and the shucks weighted down. then about 5-6" of vacuum was applied to the vacuum bag.

    What I ended up was this:


    The Horizontal stab (solid 3/32" balsa) was done the same way:


    And the completed project. Does around 165mph on a 3s 1300mah lipo (2 1/2 minutes of blister fun!) and is only 30 1/2" wingspan..
    Thomas W.
    Euro-sport Evo, Scratch built 1/7 F-14D Tomcat, 26.5% Gee Bee R2

  19. #19
    Warbirdguy's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Sounds like someone could make a mold to do the fuse instead of foam.

    WBG
    Spitfire Brotherhood member #23

  20. #20

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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Eddie,

    Why not just apply 4oz fiberglass cloth on forward and aft fuselage foamcore sections and 6oz on the center fuselage section as i did on my Super Constellation model. If you want, you can double layer also without any weight penalty at all. It has worked for mt model that weighs only 25 lbs RTT at this time!....think about it. I couldn't be bothered by adding balsa skins on both forward and aft cone sections of fuselage of my Connie, so this layup worked out very nice n super light. My wings are directly glassed over foam also.......

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD3g-Y9m5UY


    You can then burn out foam also if you like just the fiberglass shells as this is one off model i imagine....
    I do believe in KISS (Keep it simple silly), but doesn\'\'t mean my models fall in this category!
    CUB BROTHERHOOD# 173

  21. #21
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013


    ORIGINAL: Props4ever
    Eddie,
    Why not just apply 4oz fiberglass cloth...
    WOW. Sameer! This is an amazing effort, I absolutely love what you have done on your Connie! Not only did you build an amazing machine but you saved your friends coffee before the engine run up Your excitement in the video is shared by all of us I am certain.

    I have glassed directly over bare foam for the fuselages of my CV-580 and my P-3. I first filled the voids with filler, then used light glass cloth however, and simply "painted on" the resin in the typical modeling fashion. Followed that process up by filling weave and painting and many eons of sanding in between.

    How exactly did you go from bare foam to glass? Did you apply any sort of vacuum bagging techniques? Did you fill the voids of the foam with light spakle filler first, before glassing? I really like the idea of saving the weight of the balsa and glue; and the expense of the balsa. But I wonder, can you tell me is the finished surface of the Connie as durable as you would like or is it still a bit fragile with 4 oz cloth? What is the size of your Connie again for the weight? You say the weight includes your power system and batteries?

    PS, your nose gear work is truly epic on that Connie. Well done Sam! And you have me thinking a lot again about the basics of my project. This is good, thank you. PPS - please attach a link to your build thread for others to see.


    ORIGINAL: invertmast
    I've done it before and it works AWESOME!
    Very good information, thank you. I can see using these techniques to fabricate a lot of components!!
    Freedom is Flying

  22. #22
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Wow - very nice and thanks for sharing. The nicest flight I ever had on an airliner was in July 1969 aboard a PIA jet from Rome to London. I think it was a 707. I remember a smooth flight on a sunny day, sweet attractive stewardesses, good food............very nice.

    Are those Rimfire electric motors? How many Lipos? I assume they're Lipos.
    "We’re retrieving the seed — then we’re done defending the humans."

  23. #23
    Countryboy's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Eddie,

    Another possible option would be Obeche veener....

    http://www.rcaerotowing.com/forum/sh...-Wing-Sheeting

    or brown paper as done on my friends scratch built 757-200 fuselage center section.
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  24. #24
    Eddie P's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    I used to use 1/64" Obeechee sheet all the time in my glider slope soaring days. It's an outstanding way to cover a foam core especially for aggressive sport flying!! It might be too much $$ for me though to do it for such a big model

    I've used Japanese tissue directly over bare polystyrene hot wired foam "tube-like" fuselages, using water based polyurethane as the resin. The brown paper method you mention would probably be like a heavy grade Japanese tissue (did he use epoxy as the resin for the paper?) and that would be perfect for a large model like this. Japanese tissue shrinks quite a bit when drying- so while it's a great stressed skin on a fuselage, it can be a possible issue for airfoils in warping unevenly unless done right. I liked it well enough in that there was a lot less of an issue for filling weave, unlike glass. I did not fill the foam voids - just laid down the tissue on the foam and the resin was painted on directly. The one thing I didn't like about it was the surface was not as strong as a proper glass surface but it was very light weight as an advantage.

    Thanks for mentioning the paper option. The more I think about it, the more paper seems like it might be a possible option too. Again - a money savings over glass and balsa!! How has your friend's 757 held up over time? Can you share his paper application technique? Did he use paper over bare foam or did he also use paper over balsa sheeting? I'm curious as to how his wings were covered and if he had any issues with warping. Does he use multiple layers of paper, like we would with glass, to build up surface strength?
    Freedom is Flying

  25. #25
    mr_matt's Avatar
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    RE: Norbert Rauch Airliners for 2013

    Hi Eddie,

    Chirs Golds made a lot of planes using foam and brown paper, here is a write up I found.

    I heard he is one of the fastest builder around, so if the brown paper helps speed things up I am all for it, low toxicity too, and water clean up. Cheap.

    http://varms.org.au/wp-content/uploa...ks%20-0006.pdf
    Matt


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