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Need Help with JC Rhino

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Old 01-05-2013, 04:10 PM
  #1
advent996
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Default Need Help with JC Rhino

I fired up my JC Rhino today and was only able to get 100K RPM out of it. I went back and checked all parameters, re-programmed the I.C.S. and fired up again. Picked up 1K RPM. I shot off an E-Mail to Eric but thought I'd tap into the RCU knowledge base as well. I purchased the low time turbine second hand from a very well known and reputable member of the Jet Turbine brotherhood !!! I'm sure that there is something I am missing. This is turbine #4 for me but my 1st Jet Central.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated..

Thx...

Bill
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:15 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

propane or kero start? battery source?

we'll get you going, some small gremlin
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Smity,

Propane, 2C A123

i agree, I'm sure it's something I've mised...

Bill
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:25 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

2C 123 may be your problem - do you have a 2C lipo to try?
The older ECU doesn't have the option of 123 and even if it did - it would be for 9.9v (3C)
Also, verify that you are using the festo gas solenoid for gas and not kero
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:25 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

You may check first for a clogged fuel filter, pinched lines, bad kero solenoid or any restriction on the fuel system.


Enrique.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:28 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Is this the battery that came from the seller for this turbine? Is it possible that you do not have enough voltage or that the ECU is not set up for an A123 power sorce.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:36 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

OK, More info...

The turbine was allready installed in a F15 that I purchased on RCU. Well known, reputable individual. Batteries were not included in the sale.
I run A123 in all of my jets and installed new A123 in the F15. I verified with Eric Clapp that the 2C A123 would be fine. He confirmed that it is. The turbine was last run by previous owner at a setting of about 113K RPM. There does not appear to be any kinks or tight bends in the fuel lines. I'm making the assumption that the solenods are proper for the turbine due to the background of the previous owner. It is possible that the filter could be a problem. Have not excluded that yet.

Bill
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

I had a similiar problem with a Jet Cat P160SX one time. I went back and went through the "Learn RC" process and problem solved. I'm thinking this could be along the same line...

Bill
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:46 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

While the 2C 123 may work, it may take longer for the ECU to "learn" the new battery/pump relationship. How long did you leave the throttle at full? It will ever so slightly gain rpm to full when it is "re-writing" tables. (it's a watchdog feature of the ECU to keep it from rapidly overspeeding the turbine) So, if you're sure the solenoids aren't reversed, (you're not running kero through the one made for gas - seen it several times and does exactly this because of throughput capability) I would run it again, giving it at least 30 sec at full throttle to see if the RPM slowly comes up (You will only have to do this once) and report back.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:52 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Smitty,

It sounds like you may be on to something. I definitely did not leave it at full throttle once it "APPEARED" to top out. As I previously stated I did get 101K RPM the second time from the initial 10K. May have just needed to leave the stick pinned for a longer period of time. I'll give it another shot tomorrow and post the results.

Thx to all for your thoughts !!!!!

Bill
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:53 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

I meant initial 100K not 10K !!!
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Sounds good Bill, glad to help and look forward to your results. Have a good one.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

I received a response back from Eric, (Extremely Timely I might Add) that verified that I had everything correctly set up. His comments were to start her back up, push up fully on the stick and give the system 2 to 3 minutes at full throttle to fully train the ECU.

Thx again for all comments by all !!!

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Old 01-05-2013, 07:16 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Hey Bill,

When I first started reading this I was convinced that the A123's wouldn't have enough voltage to get your pump up to speed. I'll be really interested to hear if the long run at full throttle will fix it. Also check your pump pw reading but I'm sure if you've talked to Eric he's covered all that.

Lemme know when you're ready to head to the filed with that thing. If we get a break in the weather and have access to OLF I'd love to head down to maiden the Elan.

PaulD

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Old 01-05-2013, 07:38 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

My first question would be what is your Pump PW readings and temperature readings.

If the PW is high, then check the fuel filter and also temporally remove the fuel solenoid to see if the PW numbers go down and the RPM's go up....

Also check the diameter of the fuel line from the tank to the UAT and from UAT to the Pump. How long are the fuel lines?

Also make sure you have sufficient venting to the tank.

Don't worry, it will run fine once you find the gremlin

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Old 01-05-2013, 07:49 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Hey Paul,

Yea, I talked with Eric before installing the A123's. He said that a lot of people are running them with 2C A123's with no problem. The E-Mail
Eric sent me sounds like it's just a matter of leaving the throttle at full for 2 or 3 minutes to allow the "Training of the ECU" to complete. I should have looked at the pump PW but I did not. Hopefully I'll be able to fire it up tomorrow and see if this takes care of the problem. I'll tell you one thing, that Rhino puts out some serious DB's !!!

Look forward to seeing you some time at the OLF. My Bandit is ready for it's maiden and the Kingcat is itching to get out of the garage !!!

Bill
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:11 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

I had this problem with my rhino, I even did the throttle learning as stated but first run it takes a few minutes for the RPMs to max. Something I did notice even after it was *****g out like it should, it would take awhile when flying, the last few k of rpms seem to inch up.
Quote:
ORIGINAL: advent996

Hey Paul,

Yea, I talked with Eric before installing the A123's. He said that a lot of people are running them with 2C A123's with no problem. The E-Mail
Eric sent me sounds like it's just a matter of leaving the throttle at full for 2 or 3 minutes to allow the ''Training of the ECU'' to complete. I should have looked at the pump PW but I did not. Hopefully I'll be able to fire it up tomorrow and see if this takes care of the problem. I'll tell you one thing, that Rhino puts out some serious DB's !!!

Look forward to seeing you some time at the OLF. My Bandit is ready for it's maiden and the Kingcat is itching to get out of the garage !!!

Bill
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:35 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Rich,

Thx for the input. I'll be looking into some of your points more after my next run if RPM's are still lacking...

Fenderbean,

I'm really just verifying that the turbine will make the max RPM. It is in a YA F15 and I plan to turn it down to 112K which will give me 32# of thrust. Hopefully the spool up time will be decent limited to 112K...

thx...

Bill
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:13 AM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Is your throttle trim all the way up?

Regards, Bart.
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Old 01-06-2013, 04:20 AM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino


Quote:
ORIGINAL: advent996

I received a response back from Eric, (Extremely Timely I might Add) that verified that I had everything correctly set up. His comments were to start her back up, push up fully on the stick and give the system 2 to 3 minutes at full throttle to fully train the ECU.

Thx again for all comments by all !!!


Yep... Eric is great about getting back to his customers... even over the holiday's.

I'm sure you problem is just to let the ECU learn what "Full Pump PW" is, since you are running an A123. If the last owner had a 2c LiPo... you are running less input voltage.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:35 AM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

My throttle trim is al the way up...

The last owner was running lipo.

I went back and re-read the manual. Last step under STARTING on page 29:

"Always accelerate to full power. Slowly the first time you start the engine, to allow the I.C.S. learn the full power and idle limits. Do this every time you recharge your batteries."


This step should probably include leaving the throttle at full power until the turbine reaches max and that this could take 2 to 3 minutes...

Hopefully I can make it to the field today and give this another try... I'm sure this will resolve the problem...

Bill

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Old 01-06-2013, 03:24 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

O.K. Latest Info...

Made some progress but not quite there...

Burned a bit of Kero going through the learning process. Did it 3 tanks worth which yielded me an additional 10K RPM. I'm now *****g out at 110K RPM. My PW was at 458 and temperature was at 494C, Version 5.49. I haven't a clue as to whether the PW 458 seems high, low, or just right !!!

Eric has stayed in contact to work out issue. I'm sure we will get there...

Will try running a 7.4 LIPO next but really want to stay with A123 !!!

Bill
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:49 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

I have the propane Rhino in my Boomerang XL and here is what I look for.

Idle throttle 31K at PW 60 and temp of 475.
Max throttle is 116.5K at PW 380 and temp of 560.

I had a similar problem last year, low RPM, high PW. The way I checked for fuel restriction was to bypass my onboard fuel system by taking 6mm line from kero can straight to the pump, bypassing the solenoid and then look at the numbers. My problem was the fuel pump. Eric sent me a new one. As soon as I did the install and run, my numbers came back to normal.

With the new pump now broke in, my numbers are running
Idle PW 55, Max PW 370.

My LiIon runs 7.94v after a full charge and there is no problem. I found that if my LiIon drops between 7.4 to 7.5v, then starts are not reliable. So make sure your batts are fully charged.

Roy
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:23 PM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino

Hey Roy,

I sent you a PM

Bill Rietzel
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:42 AM
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Default RE: Need Help with JC Rhino


Quote:
ORIGINAL: advent996

........

Will try running a 7.4 LIPO next but really want to stay with A123 !!!

Bill

Why stay with the 123 on the ECU? I understand with an RX battery... but Gaspar's ECU's were designed for 2c lipos. Yes... it will work on a 2c 123 battery... but you are going from 7.4v (actually 8.2v on a full charge) down to 6.6v.


As far as comparing to MolarMender's PW... unless he is also running a LiFe battery... you can't compare to his numbers. The PW isn't a fixed voltage... it's just the amount of time that the transistors are allowing power to flow. So... if you have more input voltage (of the LiPo) then the output will be proportionaly higher also.

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