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BMFA Jet 'C' Test

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Old 01-29-2013, 08:38 AM
  #26
Art ARRO
 
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

My Post # 17 and Siclick33's Post # 14 reference the process used to certify fixed-wing turbine pilots in the USA and has been adopted by MAAC in Canada for those pilots wishing to fly turbines in the USA. It was primarily developed to satisfyinsurance underwriters in our litigious societies. These underwriters initially forbid the operation of model gas turbinesfor R/C applications and a "waiver process" was instituted to permit turbine operations. An entire setof turbine safety regulations were developed to include a flight test examination which is documented in Post # 14 (with a change to BMFA rather than AMA). Thesesafety regulations are amended as required but the flight exam portion has remained pretty muchconstant since its outset a decade or more ago.The result is a safe operating environmentwith over 1200 turbine waivered pilots flying at numerous R/C club sites and jet events in the USA. The waiverprocess sets a level of competancy forturbine pilots and there is a lot of self-policing and mentoring of newand prospective pilots. We don't have a "A, B, or C" certificates for R/C flying,but if this works in the UK, then all the well.

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Old 01-29-2013, 11:08 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bilboB


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ORIGINAL: JohnMac


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ORIGINAL: Art ARRO

Brit. Jet Pilots,
The process described was extracted from the AMA's Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver Application which is used issue a Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver for R/C turbine operations. A different process is used for Turbine Powered Rotary-Wing (helicopter) R/C models. These flight test maneuvers satisfy the AMA's Safety Committee and our insurance underwriters in the USA.
A similar flight test process is in effect by the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) for their Turbine Operator Certificate (TOC), and has just gone in effect for 2013. A TOC is required for Canadian MAAC members who wish to fly turbine jets in the USA. The TOC also satsfies the insurance underwriters of both countries.
While it would be nice to standardize the processes, I recognize and accept differences across countries that permit R/C model turbine flying. Bring on your comments and or concerns.

Art ARRO, AMA Turbine CD & Fixed Wing Waiver holder
Art, In the UK we already have an acheivement scheme. It is a voluntary scheme but many clubs (such as mine) use the ''B'' certificate as the yardstick by which pilots are measured, particularly when it comes to flying jets. So in my club you cannot be the lead pilot if you only have an A certificate, you must have a B certificate pilot with you and on the same mode in order to fly a jet. In order to fly at a public show with any model type in the UK, you need to hold a B certificate. The C certificate is intended as a aerobatic excellence certificate for jet pilots, that is all.
Our club will, be hosting one of these events on behalf of the BMFA. Personally I am not too interested in it as I do not fly ''aerobatic'' jets, but scale ones which are somewhat limited in their aerobatic capabilty. However, I am happy to support anyone who does want to go for this certificate, but I am not convinced that the take up will be that high. We shall see.
John
Depending on what you mean by a Public Show you are incorrect I think. If a Club organises a show as we have and do and the public come and attend, the club can deem that 'A' pilots can fly. We believed that you had to Have a B cert but then had a club visit from Manny Williamson of the BMFA and he informed us that we could allow A pilots or indeed Pilots with no cert at all to fly. We have generally decided in our club that A cert pilots can fly at our open events to which some members of the public do attend

We have the same rule for turbine jets as for other models, we see no reason to distinguish between them

Many very good pilots have never taken any certs and that does not make them dangerous pilots, Some B and indeed C cert pilots are on the contary quite dangerous
Well until now I was of the same belief as you, that a B cert is required to fly at a public show. Certainly I have never flown at a public show were a B cert was not required. If Manny so it is so, then it is so. On your latter point, I completely concur. We had a jet pilot come to one of our open days who overflew a no fly zone on his landing approach because he performed a procedure turn. When I pulled him up about it he explained that he did not really like to land off a right hand circuit! I could not believe me erars or my eyes, as he did have a B cert. (mates test!).
I told him to demonstrate his ability to perform a right hand circuit and landing or cease flying, which he duly did. But for a jet pilot not to be "happy" about making a circuit one way or the other beggars belief.
This is why I am somewhat skeptical about certificates in general. My fellow commitee members and I know very well and very quickly who in the club need to be watched and or assisted. Often the best qualified pilots in terms of certificates and in terms of talent, are the ones you need to watch the most.
John
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:23 AM
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:30 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Having now read the Guidance for Candidates document I must admit to being somewhat, well, hacked off a little. Its really a cut and paste from the F/W Aerobatic "C" certificate and is very 'prop' or Boomer orientated. BUT I suspect our prop brethren on many Club committees will see this as 'requirement' to fly jets. I suggest it is renamed 'Aerobatic - Gas Turbine' to keep in the 'C ' certificate format, and show to all who may look, that it is in ADDITION to a 'B' Certificate not instead of and is a personal choice to take or not, just like the F/W C certificate.
As a Club Sec myself I and our committee are very happy that a B is required to fly jets PLUS an assessment by our GT committee man.
A real test of aerobatic skills with a jet is F3S or F4J, funny no certificates with those.

David
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:43 PM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: David J Ruskin

Having now read the Guidance for Candidates document I must admit to being somewhat, well, hacked off a little. Its really a cut and paste from the F/W Aerobatic "C" certificate and is very 'prop' or Boomer orientated. BUT I suspect our prop brethren on many Club committees will see this as 'requirement' to fly jets. I suggest it is renamed 'Aerobatic - Gas Turbine' to keep in the 'C ' certificate format, and show to all who may look, that it is in ADDITION to a 'B' Certificate not instead of and is a personal choice to take or not, just like the F/W C certificate.
As a Club Sec myself I and our committee are very happy that a B is required to fly jets PLUS an assessment by our GT committee man.
A real test of aerobatic skills with a jet is F3S or F4J, funny no certificates with those.

David
David

If your club requires a B cert to fly jets that is fine. Are you however aware that this is not a requirement of the BMFA. Clubs are of course free to make their own rules and can adopt recommendations of the BMFA or not. It is the requirements of the CAA that have the backing of law in the uk

Looking at the test in terms of safety interests me as I cant quite understand how for example doing a low inverted pass can aid a pilots safe flying

You are correct I think in that many pilots who dont like Jets will jump on this and assume you need it to fly Jets

Why oh Why people have to keep singleing Jets out as being different to other large models in regard to safety is a mystry to me
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:40 AM
  #31
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Having the C cert cant be a bad thing gives pilots something to work towards, if it is not mandatory then do some prac-tise

Not many sites I fly from you could do a full circuit below 40ft, that rule was written for flying at flat WW2 Airfields
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:52 AM
  #32
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

I would rather not see the UK go the same way as North America, where jet flyers NEED a jet certificate to fly, as one does read in the Forum of some unfortunatewho is 'the only jetjock in the village'. His club won't let him fly without a waiver, and he can't practise to get the waiver with nowhere to fly jets.
The present BMFA system of "advising" a B rating (taken on a prop model) before moving on to jets seems adequate.
My club "advises" a B rating or equivalent before flying models with large engines (20 cc plus) as well.

I believe Manny Williamson is right that there is nothing in Law or BMFA Regulation so say you NEED a B to fly in a show. What you need is permission from the show organiser, and he is within his rights to authorise someone with no certificate to fly. If the show organiser takes that responsibility, he will need to have confidence that the pilot is very safe. If he knows the pilot and his abilities well, that is best. For pilots not known personallyto the organiser,the B is a guide (a poor one), the LMA Prof Cert is better, as it is public show specific.

The BMFA Jet C could maybe be used as a guide for organisers of public shows, but should never be used by clubs to control jet flying. A straightforward B with a bit of turbine safety handling knowledge added on should be enough for club flying.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:02 AM
  #33
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

I agree, also will we have to appoint C test examiners at club level or will we have to travel to be tested at an unfamiliar venue. The B certificate has proven to be a good enough regulator. As long as it is voluntary then it doesn't threaten but there will be some club committees up and down the country eager to adopt it as a club rule.
Turbines are not every body's cup of tea and you can often detect a little hostility at the flying field.
When something like this was first mentioned the JMA hadn't even been consulted. Is it different this time? Ron.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:28 AM
  #34
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

At one of the clubs I belong to the problem is the other way around, the chairman and most of the committee don't even have an A let alone a B, this brings different and in my opinion worse problems, the lack of flying discipline is appalling, I only fly a jet there when I can get in the air by myself, and before you ask its because its within five miles of my home, I think a minimum of an A certificate to fly anything solo that is capable of over 100mph or over 6Kgs may be in order, just figures to talk about, not carved in stone.

Mike
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:00 AM
  #35
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

At one of the clubs I belong to the problem is the other way around, the chairman and most of the committee don't even have an A let alone a B, this brings different and in my opinion worse problems, the lack of flying discipline is appalling, I only fly a jet there when I can get in the air by myself, and before you ask its because its within five miles of my home, I think a minimum of an A certificate to fly anything solo that is capable of over 100mph or over 6Kgs may be in order, just figures to talk about, not carved in stone.

Mike
Bad flying and lack of discipline in my view has little to do with what certificate you hold. Most of the people on our roads have driving licences but does that prevent bad driving and many accidents.

I dont know what the answer is to problems like this but I am certain certtificates will make little difference. Also the inclusion of aerobatic routines in these certificates in my view does very little to improve good flying.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:17 PM
  #36
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

The jet C is not in anyway as demanding as the aerobatic C! It's more like a jet B, the original jet C included manuvers such as a rolling circuit! The operation of turbine models is something of an issue if guidelines are not implemented, and reduce the chances of incidents caused by ignorance!
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:45 PM
  #37
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

But at least if you have a consistant checking regime a system of certification will give an indication of competence to be judged by this would give those that wish to know your level of competence prior to flying, isn't that what all this is all about?

Mike
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:51 PM
  #38
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bilboB


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

At one of the clubs I belong to the problem is the other way around, the chairman and most of the committee don't even have an A let alone a B, this brings different and in my opinion worse problems, the lack of flying discipline is appalling, I only fly a jet there when I can get in the air by myself, and before you ask its because its within five miles of my home, I think a minimum of an A certificate to fly anything solo that is capable of over 100mph or over 6Kgs may be in order, just figures to talk about, not carved in stone.

Mike
Bad flying and lack of discipline in my view has little to do with what certificate you hold. Most of the people on our roads have driving licences but does that prevent bad driving and many accidents.

I dont know what the answer is to problems like this but I am certain certtificates will make little difference. Also the inclusion of aerobatic routines in these certificates in my view does very little to improve good flying.
What utter rubbish, if everyone did not take a driving test the standard of driving would be whatever you wish, at least with a standard to obtain to pass a test you have a standard to subscribe to, and most of us subscribe to that standard, your constant negatives on this subject single you out as Dennis, give over for once.

Mike
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:55 PM
  #39
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

+1
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:16 PM
  #40
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bilboB


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

At one of the clubs I belong to the problem is the other way around, the chairman and most of the committee don't even have an A let alone a B, this brings different and in my opinion worse problems, the lack of flying discipline is appalling, I only fly a jet there when I can get in the air by myself, and before you ask its because its within five miles of my home, I think a minimum of an A certificate to fly anything solo that is capable of over 100mph or over 6Kgs may be in order, just figures to talk about, not carved in stone.

Mike
Bad flying and lack of discipline in my view has little to do with what certificate you hold. Most of the people on our roads have driving licences but does that prevent bad driving and many accidents.

I dont know what the answer is to problems like this but I am certain certtificates will make little difference. Also the inclusion of aerobatic routines in these certificates in my view does very little to improve good flying.
What utter rubbish, if everyone did not take a driving test the standard of driving would be whatever you wish, at least with a standard to obtain to pass a test you have a standard to subscribe to, and most of us subscribe to that standard, your constant negatives on this subject single you out as Dennis, give over for once.

Mike
Mike

Perhaps you should read my post again and you willpossibly understand that it was not negative. You seem to think that you own this forum with your constant uninformed drivel. You have made over 9000 posts very few of which are worth reading. Did you know that these forums are not the BaldEagle show.

Get out more and get a life.

Come and say Hi at the next event


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Old 01-30-2013, 03:17 PM
  #41
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Exactly what I would expect from you Dennis.

Mike
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: John Tancock

+1
Follow along like a good little boy
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:20 PM
  #43
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

Exactly what I would expect from you Dennis.

Mike
And who attacked who first
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:05 AM
  #44
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

The whole A,B,C cert thing really only applies if you are BMFA member and then fly at a BMFA registered club, now with so much RC stuff being sold on the internet there is lots of RC flying going on outside of club environments so who regulates that.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:13 AM
  #45
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Xairflyer

The whole A,B,C cert thing really only applies if you are BMFA member and then fly at a BMFA registered club, now with so much RC stuff being sold on the internet there is lots of RC flying going on outside of club environments so who regulates that.
Not only who regulates them, but who insures them, I don't think household insurance would cover it, especially if it was a child flying.

Mike
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:44 AM
  #46
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Xairflyer

The whole A,B,C cert thing really only applies if you are BMFA member and then fly at a BMFA registered club, now with so much RC stuff being sold on the internet there is lots of RC flying going on outside of club environments so who regulates that.
The law I guess...

In the UK all civil flying, including all model aircraft, is subject to the rules and regulations of the Air Navigation Order. See CAP658 as to how this applies to "Model Aircraft".

Best Regards,
=Adrian=
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:11 AM
  #47
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Quote:
ORIGINAL: John Tancock

The jet C is not in anyway as demanding as the aerobatic C! It's more like a jet B, the original jet C included manuvers such as a rolling circuit! The operation of turbine models is something of an issue if guidelines are not implemented, and reduce the chances of incidents caused by ignorance!
I am unsure that I understand your second sentence. I would argue that the operation of all models is something of an issue if guidelines are not implemented, not just jets. This test is not designed, as far as I can see, to deal with the issue of training people to safefely operate a jet, although some attempt appears to have been made to at least have some very basic questions regarding their operation. It is designed to set a standard against which individual jet pilots may measure their aerobatic prowess with a jet..
So far so good, and I wait with interest to see how many "jet" pilots take this up. I purposely put "jet" in parentheses because I wish to make the point that there are jet pilots and there are jet pilots. For me, a boomerang is a trainer. It is not, in my humble opinion, a "jet". It does not look like a jet, fly like a jet or handle like a jet, which is exactly why it exists. It is however a very fine model that happens to be powered by a "jet". It fills a very important important niche in the world of model "jets", it just isn't one.
I suspect though that this is the model ,that the majority of UK jet modellers that wish to take the C test, will use. Try taking it with an F104! Now that is a JET!

As an endevour in it's own right, I see that it something we should support ( and I will be doing with time and facilities).
However, as soon as I hear voices, particularly from the armchair pundits, that this new test is the very things to ensure the safe operation of jets, I want to tear out my hair. It might suprise some people but here in the UK, and I suspect elswhere in the world, we jet modellers have had the inteligence to organise ourselves in such away that our flying and operations are as safe ast they can be. That is the everyday reality. IF we did have a problem with safe jet operations at grass roots clubs level , then there may be a case for a new testing regime to help deal with this, set up by the BMFA. But there isn't, and in any case this test would not be it.
If it's not broken, shall we agree not to fix it?
John
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:51 AM
  #48
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

What hair?
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Old 02-01-2013, 01:06 AM
  #49
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Good reply!
The F104 would actually not be a bad model to do this routine with!
The Boomerang is more of a Wot 4, and while a good all rounder it would probably not be as smooth as such aircraft stated above!

I do wonder how the the "Examiners" will be chosen!

Probably with the help of the "JMA" (one would hope anyway)!

One observation which always makes me laugh at all jet events, is that you can fly a perfect routine, but you are only ever judged on your landing! LOL
Get that wrong and everybody seems to see it, and will always make sure that the victim of this "heinous crime" knows about it!

Get it right, and no one saw it![>:]

JT
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Old 02-01-2013, 02:04 AM
  #50
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:

I do wonder how the the ''Examiners'' will be chosen!

Probably with the help of the ''JMA'' (one would hope anyway)!
The "C" tests are taken by either an Area Chief Examiner and a club examiner or two A.C.E's one of whom must be qualified in that discipline.

The other question is whether the the Jet C will be conducted under the fixed wing banner or as a separate Jet discipline and that will require the ACE's that wish to do it being trained and or capable of overseeing the test.

I know of one A.C.E. who flies turbines and is a regular at the Classic Jets there may be some others.

Lets hope the JMA can have sufficient input to make the test work for those that wish to take it.

Rob
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