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BMFA Jet 'C' Test

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Old 01-28-2013, 06:19 AM
  #1
siclick33
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Default BMFA Jet 'C' Test

I have just been shown the schedule for the new BMFA Jet 'C' achievement scheme certificate.

I have my own views (which I have fed back to the BMFA) but wondered who else in the UK had seen it and what they thought. Good thing or bad thing?

Quote:
(a) Carry out pre-flight checks as required by BMFA Safety Codes.

(b) Start up and Taxi out

(c) Take off and join the circuit in appropriate direction for conditions

(d) Perform a procedure turn to either left or right appropriate for conditions

(e) Fly a figure of eight

(f) Fly a rectangular or race track low level circuit - below 40 feet – in opposite direction to landing circuit

(g) Fly a slow dirty pass, flaps extended and undercarriage deployed where appropriate, height below 30 feet

(h) Fly one Inside loop into wind

(i) Fly a landing circuit appropriate to type, the site and prevailing conditions, and go-round from below 10 feet, this is an aborted landing, not a low pass

(j) Select and perform seven manoeuvres from the list below

[ul][*] Two Derry turns, one from each direction
[*] Reversal/Split S
[*] Cuban 8
[*] Inverted pass
[*] Wingover
[*] Knife edge pass, canopy towards pilot
[*] 4 point roll
[*] Slow roll
[*] Two consecutive rolls
[*]Immelmann turn
[/ul]

(k) Perform a landing circuit appropriate to type, the site and prevailing conditions

(l) Perform a landing, wheels to touch within 25m of a pre-set point

(m) Taxi back, stop and shutdown engine

(n) Complete post flight checks as required by BMFA Safety Codes

(o) Answer satisfactorily during the Interview, showing a depth of knowledge about model gas turbine flying and safety matters
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:41 AM
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Jamie C
 
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

There are three 'Jet-C' examiner workshops programmed for this year http://www.jmajets.co.uk/events.php the JMA is on board with it and Duncan McClure who is running with it as the BMFA Achievement scheme coordinator is our liaison to the full council. It has been around for sometime and has had many changes to it, it is certainly much more realistic than the first draft i saw!
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:42 AM
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Rob Howarth
 
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Interesting. I wholly endorse this on a mandatory UK wide basis. However, are the BMFA going to make this mandatory to all individuals wishing to operate and fly RC jets, or will it just be a 'recommended' requirement at public/show gatherings?

Interesting to know how they plan to select and implement the examiners as well as standardisation of this.

The proposed criteria looks like a good plan. Part (o) will be interesting.

Having reflected upon this I feel that the 'C test' should be more based around ones knowledge and understanding of how to operate an RC jet in a safe manner and environment, rather than whether the pilot can perform certain aerobatic figures. This way it will flatten the gap between scale and aerobatic jets, enabling all pilots to obtain such qualification.



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Old 01-28-2013, 06:43 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

I think all the maneuvers are realistic but why do we need a C certificate?




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Old 01-28-2013, 06:50 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Quote:
Quote; Rob Howarth

Interesting. I wholly endorse this on a mandatory UK wide basis. However, are the BMFA going to make this mandatory to all individuals wishing to operate and fly RC jets, or will it just be a 'recommended' requirement at public/show gatherings?
Rob, from the accompanying literature:

Quote:
The ‘C’ Certificate (Gas Turbine) is not a ‘show licence’ but is a way to encourage the development of more advanced personal flying skills by meeting, and being tested to, a recognised national standard.
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Old 01-28-2013, 06:57 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Quote:
Quote: Rob Howarth.

Part (o) will be interesting.
From the literature:

Quote:
‘The applicant will be interviewed by the Examiners and must display a satisfactory depth of knowledge of model flying in general and, in particular, of safety matters based on the BMFA Safety Codes for Gas Turbines, General Flying and Model Flying Displays.’
Quote:
The whole point here is that a short list of questions such as you might have in mind for a ‘B’ certificate test is not sufficient. You can ask questions if you wish but the emphasis should be on a longer, more informal and deeper interview so that you can satisfy yourself that the candidate does have the required ‘satisfactory depth of knowledge’.
There is more but I won't labour the point here. If anyone wants to see the documents then PM me with your email address and I'll send them to you.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:26 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

John

Plain and simple 'we don't' need a 'C' once we have a 'C' then they will want a 'D'..... This was supposed to be a hobby for fun. We have enough regulation in every day life as it is and you know about that

You know as well as I do the high standard of flying at our Classic Jet meets and all 'B' holders!

Certain people just want to make Jets out to be a special case and some clubs will just use this as an excuse to ban people flying jets.

Also the BMFA achievement scheme was introduced as a way of getting ones flying to a higher level but certain club/people are misinterpreting the original idea and using simply as a test!

Take some average club members that hold a 'B' certificate and flying your average everyday aircraft. Some of these 'pilots' are just down right dangerous in the way they fly, also some of them passed their 'B' years ago! Some could well do with retaking them, wonder how many would pass it again?

Alan
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:52 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Well said Alan I totally agree with you
Regards
Mark
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

I do not see how any of this could be applied to Turbine Helicopters ?

We now have a reasonable number of operators established in the UK now but the proposed C cert would not work ?

Just my thoughts.

modtron
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:34 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Jamie,
All looks very sensible and I guess is as the Aerobatic C, ie take if you want to. Will the JMA provide a consolidated view or set of comments, or is this now set?

Only point I'd make is that i'd rather do the go round after the 7 manoeuvres so as not to be too heavy.

David
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:40 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Rob Howarth

Interesting. I wholly endorse this on a mandatory UK wide basis. However, are the BMFA going to make this mandatory to all individuals wishing to operate and fly RC jets, or will it just be a 'recommended' requirement at public/show gatherings?

Interesting to know how they plan to select and implement the examiners as well as standardisation of this.

The proposed criteria looks like a good plan. Part (o) will be interesting.



Really? Why?
Rob if the BMFA made this or any other examination mandatory the exodus would require the parting of the Red Sea in order to cope.
Those that want to do it on the other hand, then why not?
John
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:07 AM
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PHIL GREENO
 
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Nothing beyond most good jet pilots there but one point worth taking in to account is the flight time. With 8 (including the inside loop) manouvers plus circuits,plus fig 8,plus low fly bys, plus everything down low pass you are going to be pushed to get all that in in about 8 minutes which is the safe fly time for most sports jets like the U Flash or Bandit. My CARF Hawk would be fine as 12 minutes is safe.You will also need to be well practiced so all your manouvers flow from one to the other and our jets do eat up a lot of sky and take time to get into postion for each manouver.You cant just chuck them around the sky like a Extra 300.You dont want to be hurried through this test as that could be dangerous and end up in tears. Just a point worth noting.

Phil.
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:17 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

If it was mandatory then there would only be a handful of pilots flying jets.

At a typical Classic Jets meeting there are 4 or 5 jets in the air at a time all day and it is extremely rare to see an incident even a minor one. The standard of flying is I think excellent. In my view there absolutely no need for the new scheme. I thought it was only going to be undertaken by those who want bragging rights but the danger is always that it will be applied as a general requirement.

I own several planes that couldn't perform the manoeuvres. Try a knife edge with the Horten for example. Or try extending the landing gear and doing a dirty pass and see what happens. The glider I have cannot be taxied once it has landed. The schedule assumes that the pilot owns a fully aerobatic plane.

Dave Wilde and I went to the German Masters once and flew in the semi scale competition. The manoeuvres that are being suggested are almost the same as for the Masters. I thought this was a fun hobby.

John
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:22 AM
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siclick33
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

NB the quote below is NOT the BMFA test (no prizes for guessing where it comes from ).

Does anyone think that something like this would be better or worse, as a demonstration of competency to fly turbines?

Quote:
Objective: The purpose of the flight test for the turbine applicant to demonstrate their skills, knowledge, and understanding of how to safely operate and fly a turbine model aircraft.

Key Elements: The following elements are to be demonstrated through action along with verbal discussion of the element were appropriate.

1. Demonstration of proper turbine ground operations
[ul][*]a. Discuss the need to keep the tailpipe area clear of people and flammable items during start, shutdown, and all ground operations.[*]b. Explain the response plan for dealing with an aircraft fire similar to one resulting from a hot start. Fire extinguisher to be present per BMFA safety regulations.[*]c. Explain the potential for a post crash fire and the response plan to deal with the situation. Explanation to include local fire department contact number and fire fighting equipment immediately available for the modeler to respond to the fire.[*]d. Explain and demonstrate typical turbine startup and shutdown procedures.
[/ul]
2. Flight Skills
[ul][*]a. Takeoff, to be held within 10 feet either direction of centerline, with smooth, controlled corrections as necessary.[*]b. Horizontal Figure 8. Pilot to hold altitude to within +/- 50 feet during the Figure 8. This demonstrates skills at both left and right hand patterns and the ability to control the models flight path.[*]c. Perform two aerobatic maneuvers with combined looping and rolling elements to be selected by the turbine applicant. Examples include Cuban 8, Humpty Bump with ½ roll, or similar maneuvers. This demonstrates the general flying skills of the modeler.[*]d. High Speed Circuit of the field performed at a safe high rate of speed. This demonstrates the ability to control a model aircraft at speed.[*]e. Square Traffic Pattern including a missed approach go-around. This maneuver to be in the opposite direction of the takeoff and landing if conditions allow. This demonstrates the ability to control a model aircraft in the landing approach mode.[*]f. Landing to a complete stop. Again, smooth, controlled corrections to the aircraft’s path after touchdown are required. The landing must be completed on the runway.[/ul]
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:50 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

As far as I can see this is, as with the A and B, part of the BMFA achievement scheme and not compulsory, nor should it be compared to the current fixed wing aerobatic C certificate because it is testing a different skill set. It is designed to be as inclusive as possible and at the same level as the B certificate and is not a show license, rather a way to encourage the development of more advanced personal flying skills.

Much like the a driving test the examiners will be looking not only for the candidates ability to fly the schedule but the controlled, consistent and confident manner in which it is carried out....not flashy flying.

I see no reason why the test cannot be completed in a couple of flights if fuel duration is an issue.

Rob.
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:56 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

That sounds like a nice A certificate, maybe we ought to start out small and build on that, at least it would give competent pilots a chance to demonstrate to a non BMFA jet flying committee/flying field organisers that they are competent without having to show competition/show standards.

Mike
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Brit. Jet Pilots,
The process described was extracted from the AMA's Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver Application which is used issue a Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver for R/C turbine operations. A different process is used for Turbine Powered Rotary-Wing (helicopter) R/C models. These flight test maneuvers satisfythe AMA's Safety Committee and our insurance underwriters in the USA.
A similar flight test process is in effect by the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) for their Turbine Operator Certificate (TOC),and has just gone in effect for 2013. A TOC is required for Canadian MAACmembers who wish to fly turbine jets in the USA. The TOC also satsfies the insurance underwriters of both countries.
While it would be nice to standardize the processes, I recognize and accept differences across countries that permit R/C model turbine flying. Bring on your comments and or concerns.

Art ARRO, AMATurbine CD & Fixed Wing Waiver holder
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:11 AM
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siclick33
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

I don't really know what the C 'jet' is trying to achieve. The reasoning given in the literature for the test is to improve flying standards (or something like that). However, the schedule is no more difficult than the normal B(FW). I am not really sure why it isn't called the B 'Jet'. You already have to have a B(FW) to take the test and I am not convinced that flying any of the manoeuvres with a Boomerang is any harder than with a sports prop model, so it shouldn't be too much of a challenge. I would prefer to fly that schedule with my Boomerang Nano than I would trying to repeat my B with the OS61 powered Staudacher I used.

In my opinion, if they want to improve flying standards then the schedule needs to be harder (rolling circles, spins, high speed flight, outside loops etc). If the BMFA are trying to promote safety and professionalism (which is where I think their priority should be) then they should concentrate more on operating procedures and safety aspects and maybe just a simple flight to prove that an individual can operate a jet model safely.

Quote:
Quote: Robrow

I see no reason why the test cannot be completed in a couple of flights if fuel duration is an issue.
That is allowed within the rules.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:35 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

I learnt a lot training for my B certificate, as I'm sure everyone else does.
Insisting on a B improves standards and maybe helps weed out those who maybe don't have the discipline to learn the in/outs of turbine operations.
I'm struggling to see what additional benefit, beyond a B, the C test will provide.
What is the test mitigating against that the B doesn't provide?

I'm concerned that clubs could put another barrier in place to prevent jet flying.

Is there any way, now that the BMFA have come up with this test, that they can state induvidual clubs cannot make it mandatory??

Thought not.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

When I did my B test, I could fly the routine. It was not the test that taught me anything or raised my standards it only sufficed to prove I could do it on that day. I have found the hard way that flying standards improve by lots of flying and mistakes are punished by crashing in many cases. This adds to the desire to get it right or give up. A 'C' test will not improve my standard of flying, a flying 'workshop' might. By this I mean that those that are more experienced have the opportunity to help those that have a desire to learn. I believe Geoff White and Dick Spreadbury used to do a similar thing with Paul Heccles, many years ago.


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Old 01-28-2013, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Rob Howarth

Interesting. I wholly endorse this on a mandatory UK wide basis. However, are the BMFA going to make this mandatory to all individuals wishing to operate and fly RC jets, or will it just be a 'recommended' requirement at public/show gatherings?

Interesting to know how they plan to select and implement the examiners as well as standardisation of this.

The proposed criteria looks like a good plan. Part (o) will be interesting.



The BMFA do not have the power to make anything mandatory. They can only recommend. If you dont believe me phone them and ask to speak to Manny Williamson
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test



In my view certificates like this merely serve to push people beyond what they feel comfortable with and that is when accidents happen

I know many very safe jet pilots who cannot fly knife edge to save their life. Are they  worse pilot for that or are they safe because they remain within their limits

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Old 01-28-2013, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test

Looks like Dennis has a new name.

Mike
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:51 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Art ARRO

Brit. Jet Pilots,
The process described was extracted from the AMA's Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver Application which is used issue a Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver for R/C turbine operations. A different process is used for Turbine Powered Rotary-Wing (helicopter) R/C models. These flight test maneuvers satisfy the AMA's Safety Committee and our insurance underwriters in the USA.
A similar flight test process is in effect by the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) for their Turbine Operator Certificate (TOC), and has just gone in effect for 2013. A TOC is required for Canadian MAAC members who wish to fly turbine jets in the USA. The TOC also satsfies the insurance underwriters of both countries.
While it would be nice to standardize the processes, I recognize and accept differences across countries that permit R/C model turbine flying. Bring on your comments and or concerns.

Art ARRO, AMA Turbine CD & Fixed Wing Waiver holder
Art, In the UK we already have an acheivement scheme. It is a voluntary scheme but many clubs (such as mine) use the "B" certificate as the yardstick by which pilots are measured, particularly when it comes to flying jets. So in my club you cannot be the lead pilot if you only have an A certificate, you must have a B certificate pilot with you and on the same mode in order to fly a jet. In order to fly at a public show with any model type in the UK, you need to hold a B certificate. The C certificate is intended as a aerobatic excellence certificate for jet pilots, that is all.
Our club will, be hosting one of these events on behalf of the BMFA. Personally I am not too interested in it as I do not fly "aerobatic" jets, but scale ones which are somewhat limited in their aerobatic capabilty. However, I am happy to support anyone who does want to go for this certificate, but I am not convinced that the take up will be that high. We shall see.
John
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:34 AM
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Default RE: BMFA Jet 'C' Test


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnMac


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Art ARRO

Brit. Jet Pilots,
The process described was extracted from the AMA's Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver Application which is used issue a Fixed-Wing Turbine Waiver for R/C turbine operations. A different process is used for Turbine Powered Rotary-Wing (helicopter) R/C models. These flight test maneuvers satisfythe AMA's Safety Committee and our insurance underwriters in the USA.
A similar flight test process is in effect by the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) for their Turbine Operator Certificate (TOC),and has just gone in effect for 2013. A TOC is required for Canadian MAACmembers who wish to fly turbine jets in the USA. The TOC also satsfies the insurance underwriters of both countries.
While it would be nice to standardize the processes, I recognize and accept differences across countries that permit R/C model turbine flying. Bring on your comments and or concerns.

Art ARRO, AMATurbine CD & Fixed Wing Waiver holder
Art, In the UK we already have an acheivement scheme. It is a voluntary scheme but many clubs (such as mine) use the "B" certificate as the yardstick by which pilots are measured, particularly when it comes to flying jets. So in my club you cannot be the lead pilot if you only have an A certificate, you must have a B certificate pilot with you and on the same mode in order to fly a jet. In order to fly at a public show with any model type in the UK, you need to hold a B certificate. The C certificate is intended as a aerobatic excellence certificate for jet pilots, that is all.
Our club will, be hosting one of these events on behalf of the BMFA. Personally I am not too interested in it as I do not fly "aerobatic" jets, but scale ones which are somewhat limited in their aerobatic capabilty. However, I am happy to support anyone who does want to go for this certificate, but I am not convinced that the take up will be that high. We shall see.
John
Depending on what you mean by a Public Show you are incorrect I think. If a Club organises a show as we have and do and the public come and attend, the club can deem that 'A' pilots can fly. We believed that you had to Have a B cert but then had a club visit from Manny Williamson of the BMFA and he informed us that we could allow A pilots or indeed Pilots with no cert at all to fly. We have generally decided in our club that A cert pilots can fly at our open events to which some members of the public do attend

We have the same rule for turbine jets as for other models, we see no reason to distinguish between them

Many very good pilots have never taken any certs and that does not make them dangerous pilots, Some B and indeed C cert pilots are on the contary quite dangerous
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