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Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

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Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Old 04-16-2013, 07:45 AM
  #451  
dubd
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

I posted a video of my linkage. There are pictures of it in the build thread. Those of you who feel that is what caused the crash please explain. If nothing else other people can learn from it.
Old 04-16-2013, 07:55 AM
  #452  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Guys, dont forget this plane flew many(20+) times in a flight regime with uplines and downlines. I'm telling you, something changed during that final flight to cause its demise! Think in terms of what could have changed. We will never know for sure, but the most likely cause is structural based on what's been exposed throughout this thread.
Old 04-16-2013, 07:56 AM
  #453  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

I am going to chime in again in regards to the incorrect design of honey comb. I attached a link early on in the thread. As an engineer I will give my assessment which correlates to the university profs that provided expert opinions. Flutter can be caused by several things. Loose control surfaces which this did not have. The other is a soft flimsy airframe. When we fly our models the air is not perfectly smooth. We can feel the bumps when we fly in full size as turbulance. When an airframe moves thru the air there are bumps in that air. A certain amount of flexing will occur an will transfer the stresses in the airframe. When well designed there will be no problem. If the airframe is too flexible and has week areas like bulkheads that can't transfer and absorb the energy a system breakdown will occur. The airframe started to twist transferring to the bulkhead and stab. This occurred over several flights. The material experienced fatigue because the use of materials is not correct. This fatigue will get worse more flexing occurs and than system breakdown.

Dubd hold your ground and keep this thread civilized so it will stay open. If this was a US based business they would have much to answer for. This is a problem with over seas. They need to fix this.
Old 04-16-2013, 08:04 AM
  #454  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

This is getting really sad to read because dub lost a plane and this thread is suppose to help fine a possible solution instead we have great builders, pilots and other getting upset at each other just because of there opionons. Very sad that a wonderful community appears to being torn apart over one crash.

I hope that this will come to end soon and that everyone can go back to helping each other instead of putting each other down. If this keeps up KY jet will be slug fest.

Oh we'll I guess maybe fishing would be a better hobby...just kidding
Old 04-16-2013, 08:06 AM
  #455  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Heres a question, but since payment was through a broker more or less, at what point (if any) does the broker become inflicted in this entire case? Granted i dont think legal matters need to be brought up, but if this crash were to of inflicted personal or property damage, the victims could bring in legal matters to all those involved if they learned of a possible design/manufacturing defect that was ignored.
Old 04-16-2013, 08:09 AM
  #456  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Ok guys, let me step in here again for a brief moment and clarify a few things. First, I have received a few PM's already this morning "informing" me that the the thread should be shut down for various reasons. Let me address this for a sec. We AREN'T going to close down a thread simply because some people think that the issue has been solved and doesn't need to be discussed any longer. If there are individuals that think this issue is resolved and shouldn't be discussed any longer I would simply recommend that you simply quit participating in the thread. But we aren't going to close a thread because some think it should be closed. Our policy is to allow a thread to run it's natural course whenever possible, and that's what we plan on here.

Now let me address the other concern that has been raised here, some are concerned that some members will cause a stink in the thread in hopes that it will be closed down. Let me put this out for anybody who thinks they can get the thread closed by causing trouble here in this thread, this isn't going to happen. We will instead deal with the troublemakers on an individual basis and not punish the entire thread for the actions of a few. So if you feel like you want to spend some time on MS, then by all means go ahead and try to stir up trouble. The choice is entirely up to you, but please know that I won't hesitate to back up what I say with actions.

So why am I making such a big issue about this?? Simple, this is a valid and IMPORTANT issue that needs to be addressed. If it's proven that there are issues with a particular model then the RC Jet community needs to know that so they can act accordingly. But on the other hand if it's proven that it's not an issue with the model and maybe something else instead the Jet Community also needs to know this information. But either way this matter DOES need to be discussed and we are going to do everything within our power to make sure that discussion happens. This is the core base of what RCU is here for, to share information within the RC Community.

Hopefully this lets everybody know what's going to, and not going to, happen now.

Ken
Old 04-16-2013, 08:11 AM
  #457  
mario tavarez14
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

ORIGINAL: jws_aces

This is getting really sad to read because dub lost a plane and this thread is suppose to help fine a possible solution instead we have great builders, pilots and other getting upset at each other just because of there opionons. Very sad that a wonderful community appears to being torn apart over one crash.

I hope that this will come to end soon and that everyone can go back to helping each other instead of putting each other down. If this keeps up KY jet will be slug fest.

Oh we'll I guess maybe fishing would be a better hobby...just kidding

Yes i am 100% plus with you I hope that this will come to end soon and that everyone can go back to helping each other instead of putting each other down ,( enough is enough)
Old 04-16-2013, 08:24 AM
  #458  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

B1 Bobs plane did flutter and it survived, but what is the real reason it survived?? What's the reason Bob? I'll tell you, its because your rear bulkhead is plywood, NOT honeycomb!! That's the only reason your plane is still in one piece. What about when your rudders fluttered at the Willow? What about your gear that looked like a pigeon toed teenager that would barely allow you to push the jet back to the pits. I know, I was there helping you push. These were all just things that needed to be massaged out and now you have the perfect jet right? You fly that Black Bunny hammer down ever time huh? Its tough to give credit to your statements Bob cause you are not building your jets with honeycomb bulkheads and having successful flights. If you were then maybe you have something to bring to the table. The level of ignorance is overwhelming in this hobby, especially when Phd's are pointing out obvious issues. Just blows my mind.

You guys (FEJ band wagon) can fly whatever you like, but don't come into a thread that has overwhelming evidence showing structural issues in a large plane and say there is nothing wrong. All it does is destroy your credibility. I just hope your conscious is clear when something bad happens because one of those great pieces of engineering fails and the plane goes in. I just hope no one gets hurt when it happens. Good luck to you guys.
Old 04-16-2013, 08:24 AM
  #459  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Don't really want to get into this but i will make this my last post in this thread, I think

Invertmast- if this was a legal issue and someone got hurt, regardless if it was a fej or bvm jet flying 250mph or 1 mph.  The manufacturer, Pilot and builder would be sued.   All 3 parties will have different attorneys and all point the finger at each other.  FEJ & Dubd would probably have little to no liability.  "known defect"  - will not explain,  read thread.   Remember the McDonald's coffee case?  Lady spilled coffee in her lap and file suit against mcd's for the coffee being to hot.  2mil verdict against mcd's later appealed and she walked away with $200k i believe.  Things happen in court.
Old 04-16-2013, 08:27 AM
  #460  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)


ORIGINAL: jlmaviation

If this was a US based business they would have much to answer for. .

He bought the plane from a business based in California.
Old 04-16-2013, 08:30 AM
  #461  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

ORIGINAL: invertmast

Heres a question, but since payment was through a broker more or less, at what point (if any) does the broker become inflicted in this entire case? Granted i dont think legal matters need to be brought up, but if this crash were to of inflicted personal or property damage, the victims could bring in legal matters to all those involved if they learned of a possible design/manufacturing defect that was ignored.
If someone gets hurt everyone asssociated with the sale will be sued. The lawyers will cast the net wide. If it happens at an event, the event organizer will also be sued.
Old 04-16-2013, 08:32 AM
  #462  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Dudb, I am sorry for your loss as I have lost a few jets also but not had the total loss of turbines and equipment that you have had. I have been following this thread since you started it and have taken note of the opinons and speculations that could have caused your jets problems. I am wondering what FEJ F-14's that have the honeycomb construction like dudb's have the most flights on it or are there others that have as many or more. And how many FEJ F-14's that have the plywood construction that are flying how many flights they have and what type of linkage they all have that has not had flutter yet. I have a FEJ F-14 that is one of the first generation ones and it has all plywood construction. It has not flown yet but hoping to have it ready to fly by this fall. It has had a taxi test . Upgrading the gear and putting some Kingtech G model turbines in it also. It is a heavy jet but it looks to be built well. I do hope that you can work something out with FEJ to help you with your loss and that they will address what design problems they may have had with your jets construction and also that FEJ will keep trying to improve their designs and construction techniques to improve the jets they sell and offer to the jet modelers in the future. I know the emotions and feelings you are dealing with as I have walked in your shoes also. Good luck in the future with the jets you chose to build and fly as I do enjoy seeing your posts and pictures and videos(not the crash ones) and I hope to meet you sometime at a jet rally in the near future to commend you for this thread and the others that you have done. Thanks !!
Old 04-16-2013, 08:35 AM
  #463  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

ORIGINAL: Wap4life

Don't really want to get into this but i will make this my last post in this thread, I think

Invertmast- if this was a legal issue and someone got hurt, regardless if it was a fej or bvm jet flying 250mph or 1 mph. The manufacturer, Pilot and builder would be sued. All 3 parties will have different attorneys and all point the finger at each other. FEJ & Dubd would probably have little to no liability. ''known defect'' - will not explain, read thread. Remember the McDonald's coffee case? Lady spilled coffee in her lap and file suit against mcd's for the coffee being to hot. 2mil verdict against mcd's later appealed and she walked away with $200k i believe. Things happen in court.
Which is exactly my point. In our sue happy society now, where everyone is out for a quick easy buck, they are going to go after EVERYONE that was involved, from the pilot/owner to the manufacturer and everyone in between.
Any decent lawyer is going to do his homework to get as much money as possible, which involves doing research. If this happens again and they research well enough and know where to go, they could find out that this model has a checkered past.
It wouldnt be hard to convince a jury full of people who see us as "rich guys with expensive toys" that the known issues of a particular manufacturers models have had a checkered past and that with some research from all defendants involved an incident could of been avoided.


I bring this up as we have to police ourselves and require higher standards from not just FEJ, but All manufacturers involved in this hobby. If even the "xx manufacturer" fanboi's cant see that scenarios like this could be bad for us all, then we are already doomed. At the end of the day, if someone gets their feelings hurt bc someone doesnt trust a particular model at an event, then the owner needs to suck it up and prove to them why it should be allowed

One instance could be just bc of a bad build, but when numerous models from the same manufacturer have the same problem, youve got to uncover your eyes and see the freight train coming at you at the end of the tunnel. Its not just a coincidence!
Old 04-16-2013, 09:28 AM
  #464  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Someone brought it up, wanted to emphasize again. If your jet goes past the allowable weight limit, and you do not have the AMA sign it off... you will not be insured.

There are a fair amount of people flying jets who have higher incomes than the average modeler. Do yourself a favor and get an umbrella policy, you can afford it. If I dump a jet from a company made in china, nobody is going to go after that company, they're going after me. AMA insurance and my 2 mill umbrella will hopefully be enough.


Old 04-16-2013, 09:31 AM
  #465  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Proper engineering...who needs it. Expert analysis...forget it. Responsible manufacturing with real quality control...fugetaboutit!

Just smear some of this stuff on the plane and you are good to go! See ya on the flight line, I'll be the guy in the hardened bunker!

Regards,

Jim
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:03 AM
  #466  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)


ORIGINAL: dubd

ORIGINAL: ddrake24

It’s a free country so I am going to put my two cents worth in. B1 Bob did experience flutter on his elevators and had to perform a modification to fix it. This has been stated. As I understand it the jet that crashed did not have this mod. The video showed flutter and flexing of the stabs. I think the possibility exists that flutter could have caused this entire chain of events. Flutter caused the stab to start flexing this caused the rear of the fuselage to start twisting and then we end up with a unfortunate crash. As with most plane crashes there is seldom just one cause usually several things contribute. I hope you guy’s stop cutting each other down over different opinions.
B1Bob's plane is very different from mine. Bob's plane is fiberglass with plywood bulkheads. Mine was honeycomb with honeycomb bulkheads. Before I bought my F-14 I asked the rep about Bob's flutter and was told it was caused by him using servo screws/incorrect. After my plane crashed I once again mentioned Bob's flutter to the rep and once again he said it was from Bob using servo screws/incorrect.

The real question is what caused the stabs to flutter or oscillate. FEJ says it was caused by my batteries or electronics. I am waiting for them to say how they came to that conclusion.
Batteries and electronics causing this failure is complete and utter BullSHiz!! that modal is classic LLCO!! It has to do with the pivot point, the CG of the surface, and the Center of PRessure/lift.. The tail design is the cause.. It did NOT have enough margin designed in due to a combination of several of the things discussed here... Often in an accident investigation, there is a combination of causes, however if one cause is mitigate, the chain reaction never starts...

the most common flying surface mitigation for lack of strength is to move the CG of the flying surface closer to the CP or Lift point both longitudinally and laterally.. the closer both are to the rotational point the better because it stresses the rotational assembly less in torque.. THen the LLCO highlights the fact that the tail section could not hold up to it..(twisting oscillation)..

FEJ's design is flawed and requires a rework and redesign, plain and simple.. . FEJ, Please own up to it, FIX IT, Correct the Damages to your customers, and put out the air worthiness changes!!... Thats what the other MFG's do... Either get with the program, or go away.. One of your customers uncovered a flaw!!, one that has been described for 2 years.. Just make it right plain and simple... that is what the other Manufacturers do.. Listen to your builder data base (US)... If you don't, you wont survive..

Old 04-16-2013, 10:10 AM
  #467  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

rcjets 63, that made me laugh im staying out the discussion but thats a funny picture
Old 04-16-2013, 10:15 AM
  #468  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)


ORIGINAL: 1/2 time show

ORIGINAL: Airplanes400

ORIGINAL: JimBrown

I have no idea if this will help or not, but here is the pertinent bits of the original video run through a video stabilizer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unwq7IpNLIQ

...jim
I'd like to say many thanks to this guy for his contribution of slowing down the video to capture what actually happened, and allowing the cause of the crash (design & structural flaws) to come to light. The stabs began flapping (fluttering). That resonated to the fuse, thus causing the fuse to twist. Whereby, breaking the aft bulkhead, and allowing more twisting on the fuse combined with further flutter leading to total loss of control.
Also, luckily, there was a video of the flight too.
FEJ can't wiggle out of this one.
Thanks!!
that video showed nothing more that a flutter that could of been prevented. I showed him what I did to my linkage before he ever flew his jet but he had a expert say that he did need to do this small mod. So how come no blame is being passed to this expert. all you guys are jest guessing that the bulkheads failed. in fact the flutter caused every thing that happend

B-1 Bob

when FEJ are outlawed only outlaws will fly FEJ
Bob, I understand that folks should apply mods to fix known issues to prevent them from happening. My question to you is why didn't FEJ apply that mod if it was a critical fix to their new jets? Moreover, why did they tell Dantley that it wasn't necessary? Your jet most likely survived because you had ply formers. Either way FEJ is at fault. Either they didn't correct the elevator flutter issues you reported needed modification or the honey comb formers gave way, causing the flutter (like the bulk of experienced pilots here believe). Pick your poison bud. Bottom line all fault, whether it's one or the other points to FEJ IMO. AND, they tried to bribe the owner into sweeping this issue under the carpet. It now also appears that they are trying to force the mods to take the OP thread down. Cudos to RCU for taking a stand against that.
Old 04-16-2013, 10:17 AM
  #469  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)


ORIGINAL: gooseF22


ORIGINAL: dubd

ORIGINAL: ddrake24

It’s a free country so I am going to put my two cents worth in. B1 Bob did experience flutter on his elevators and had to perform a modification to fix it. This has been stated. As I understand it the jet that crashed did not have this mod. The video showed flutter and flexing of the stabs. I think the possibility exists that flutter could have caused this entire chain of events. Flutter caused the stab to start flexing this caused the rear of the fuselage to start twisting and then we end up with a unfortunate crash. As with most plane crashes there is seldom just one cause usually several things contribute. I hope you guy’s stop cutting each other down over different opinions.
B1Bob's plane is very different from mine. Bob's plane is fiberglass with plywood bulkheads. Mine was honeycomb with honeycomb bulkheads. Before I bought my F-14 I asked the rep about Bob's flutter and was told it was caused by him using servo screws/incorrect. After my plane crashed I once again mentioned Bob's flutter to the rep and once again he said it was from Bob using servo screws/incorrect.

The real question is what caused the stabs to flutter or oscillate. FEJ says it was caused by my batteries or electronics. I am waiting for them to say how they came to that conclusion.
Batteries and electronics causing this failure is complete and utter BullSHiz!! that modal is classic LLCO!! It has to do with the pivot point, the CG of the surface, and the Center of PRessure/lift.. The tail design is the cause.. It did NOT have enough margin designed in due to a combination of several of the things discussed here... Often in an accident investigation, there is a combination of causes, however if one cause is mitigate, the chain reaction never starts...

the most common flying surface mitigation for lack of strength is to move the CG of the flying surface closer to the CP or Lift point both longitudinally and laterally.. the closer both are to the rotational point the better because it stresses the rotational assembly less in torque.. THen the LLCO highlights the fact that the tail section could not hold up to it..(twisting oscillation)..

FEJ's design is flawed and requires a rework and redesign, plain and simple.. . FEJ, Please own up to it, FIX IT, Correct the Damages to your customers, and put out the air worthiness changes!!... Thats what the other MFG's do... Either get with the program, or go away.. One of your customers uncovered a flaw!!, one that has been described for 2 years.. Just make it right plain and simple... that is what the other Manufacturers do.. Listen to your builder data base (US)... If you don't, you wont survive..


+1
Old 04-16-2013, 10:20 AM
  #470  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Wap4life

Sicklick- if you read the all the entire thread it's there. I lost control pilot error.
Apologies. For some reason Internet Explorer isn't allowing me to see all of the posts so I missed that bit. Bloody RCU[:@]
Old 04-16-2013, 10:26 AM
  #471  
gunradd
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Flyeagle....... You Mod the crap out of everything and don't follow directions if it even has them to make it fly for a little while.

BVM He strongly urges you NOT to mod anything and follow the manual and you will have success and a plane that will last a long time.

If it needs mods to be airworthy then they need the instructions to do so on their website. They should not rely on peoples build threads over the internet to fix the problems they never addressed at the factory.

Did this plane have instructions?

If so how do they say to do the servo install?

These basic things need to be corrected. They are quick to make new planes but they still don't have the basic things that need corrected on the models they already produce.
Old 04-16-2013, 10:31 AM
  #472  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

Where is the factory response to this issue
I have owned 3 DCU F-14's back in the day, anytime I called DCU I always got a response
The lack of factory response , EVEN to counter what DUB is saying is ALL telling
THEY obviously don't care they got your dollars and will sell a lot more no matter what
Old 04-16-2013, 10:48 AM
  #473  
Reinol
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)


ORIGINAL: gunradd

Flyeagle....... You Mod the crap out of everything and don't follow directions if it even has them to make it fly for a little while.

BVM He strongly urges you NOT to mod anything and follow the manual and you will have success and a plane that will last a long time.

If it needs mods to be airworthy then they need the instructions to do so on their website. They should not rely on peoples build threads over the internet to fix the problems they never addressed at the factory.

Did this plane have instructions?

If so how do they say to do the servo install?

These basic things need to be corrected. They are quick to make new planes but they still don't have the basic things that need corrected on the models they already produce.

gunradd, this is exactly why I have decided to no longer fly these Chinese ARFs. They are tempting but with the amount of flying I do they will not last. I recently sold a BVM E Bandit that had over 450 flights in about 15 months and it looked brand new. I currently have a 14 year old BVM F4 that has over 1000 flights. I put about 300 of those just last year. This is why I stick to BVM.

I am sure we would all be willing to pay just a little more for the chinese companies to build things right. It really will not cost them that much more. I would love to have all those beautiful jets but just will not deal with the problems. I'll stick to tried and true.

Dantley, really sorry for your loss. Go out and enjoy your F100!!!!!!

Rei Gonzalez
Team Jet Central
Very Happy BVM Customer
Old 04-16-2013, 10:52 AM
  #474  
erh7771
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

The second former, not the first, indicates why they should NOT use honeycomb as a former without a load distribution plate...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23.../IMG953854.jpg

Look at the white around the nuts....

My experience the honeycomb cell walls aren't "etched" enough for glue to bond mechanically....torque a nut down real good and you get those white markets around them...those are tears... little ones...but tears none of the less...

My experience is the cell walls go first like in the pic with the xray...to the left of the bottom left nut earlier in the thread

FEJ....

Better safe than sorry, just send out some plates (wood etc) to distribute the compression load throughout the cells of models that are still flying....

Here's what I wrote about my experience with HC in RCG.... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=221

Not that it'll get a loved model back...hope it informs someone in the future

Sorry for your loss D....

You have a lot of patience
Old 04-16-2013, 10:54 AM
  #475  
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Default RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)

ORIGINAL: gunradd

Flyeagle....... You Mod the crap out of everything and don't follow directions if it even has them to make it fly for a little while.

BVM He strongly urges you NOT to mod anything and follow the manual and you will have success and a plane that will last a long time.

If it needs mods to be airworthy then they need the instructions to do so on their website. They should not rely on peoples build threads over the internet to fix the problems they never addressed at the factory.

Did this plane have instructions?

If so how do they say to do the servo install?

These basic things need to be corrected. They are quick to make new planes but they still don't have the basic things that need corrected on the models they already produce.

No instructions at all. They have pictures on their website, that's the instruction manual. Not even good pictures at that.

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