Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
04-17-2013, 06:47 AM
#527
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RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
i was going to buy fej a-10 but because of thier lack of response to this issue with the honeycomb i will buy sm now. sorry for your loss.
04-17-2013, 06:54 AM
#528
Thread Starter
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: lenhard2007
i was going to buy fej a-10 but because of thier lack of response to this issue with the honeycomb i will buy sm now. sorry for your loss.
i was going to buy fej a-10 but because of thier lack of response to this issue with the honeycomb i will buy sm now. sorry for your loss.
04-17-2013, 06:58 AM
#529
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
Sorry in advance for not going back through the thread but did anyone post the pivot position as percentage of stabilator MAC?
Sorry in advance for not going back through the thread but did anyone post the pivot position as percentage of stabilator MAC?
Is not hard to test this. You don't need wind tunnel to test.
Manufacture or anyone had the kit can come up simple electric fan blowing 100-180 mph velocity over the the stabs to see if it aerodynamics balance.
If the stabs are aerodynamics balance. It doesn't take much torque to hold the stabs neutral.
If it not at right position. It will show it take a lot of torque to hold it neutral.
04-17-2013, 07:06 AM
#530
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
Scott you basically reiterated my point to FEJ (albeit in a much better way). This is a turning point for FEJ. They are at the cusp of either walking away from this or doing the right thing. This could be HUGE for them based on how they decide to handle it.
ALL EYES ARE ON FEJ RIGHT NOW. The decision you make will determine your ultimate success in this hobby in the United States. I hope you guys do the right thing toward the future of your company. It's never the issue that NO ONE will EVER have problems. The issue is how well does a manufacturer take care of the problems when confronted with them. You will be measured by your response and right now you are falling WAY short in the eyes of the community at large and even some of your most ardent supporters.
Andy
ALL EYES ARE ON FEJ RIGHT NOW. The decision you make will determine your ultimate success in this hobby in the United States. I hope you guys do the right thing toward the future of your company. It's never the issue that NO ONE will EVER have problems. The issue is how well does a manufacturer take care of the problems when confronted with them. You will be measured by your response and right now you are falling WAY short in the eyes of the community at large and even some of your most ardent supporters.
Andy
04-17-2013, 07:15 AM
#531
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RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
Andy, I don't want to sound pessimist, but nothing is going to happen.
People will continue lining up to buy "pretty" airplanes.
Once you buy them, is human nature to defend them. Until something happens !!
Jack
People will continue lining up to buy "pretty" airplanes.
Once you buy them, is human nature to defend them. Until something happens !!
Jack
04-17-2013, 07:19 AM
#533
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: siclick33
I think that we have to take things in perspective and remember that, at the end of the day, these are still toys. There are many people who post on these forums who are highly qualified and talented aerospace professionals, with expert knowledge on design, materials, stress analysis, accident investigation etc etc. However, I don't think it follows that the people working for these model companies making these 'toys' are similarly qualified. If the boss of FEJ was a top aerospace engineer then he wouldn't be building models, he would be working in industry making much more money.
Look at the price of a bolt in your local DIY store and compare that to the cost of an approved bolt used on a full size aircraft. The difference is massive and if we want that level of regulation on our toys then you can expect a huge price hike, maybe ten times or more of the current prices.
Does that mean that we should accept models that might fall apart? Of course not. The TLAR (that looks about right) principle may be all that is required, provided that the model is comprehensively tested at and beyond its limits for a substantial amount of time and number of flights, before the model is released. If this is not good enough, where do we go next? Do we expect a full CFD analysis, wind tunnel testing, certification, approval etc etc. That all adds up to $$ and is way over the top and unrealistic to expect these companies to work to this sort of standard. If this was to happen then I believe that you will end up with 1 or 2 companies selling a couple of very simple models at extortionate prices.
What we do need though, is confidence that the models won't fall apart. As I mentioned above, I believe that this is achieved by manufacturers adopting a thorough flight testing programme and also by them listening to the customer when they uncover problems and working on fixing these issues as they arise. These 2 simple things may result in a huge improvement in the quality of the models and their safety, but these same 2 principles are the very ones that some of these companies seem completely uninterested in adopting.
I think that we have to take things in perspective and remember that, at the end of the day, these are still toys. There are many people who post on these forums who are highly qualified and talented aerospace professionals, with expert knowledge on design, materials, stress analysis, accident investigation etc etc. However, I don't think it follows that the people working for these model companies making these 'toys' are similarly qualified. If the boss of FEJ was a top aerospace engineer then he wouldn't be building models, he would be working in industry making much more money.
Look at the price of a bolt in your local DIY store and compare that to the cost of an approved bolt used on a full size aircraft. The difference is massive and if we want that level of regulation on our toys then you can expect a huge price hike, maybe ten times or more of the current prices.
Does that mean that we should accept models that might fall apart? Of course not. The TLAR (that looks about right) principle may be all that is required, provided that the model is comprehensively tested at and beyond its limits for a substantial amount of time and number of flights, before the model is released. If this is not good enough, where do we go next? Do we expect a full CFD analysis, wind tunnel testing, certification, approval etc etc. That all adds up to $$ and is way over the top and unrealistic to expect these companies to work to this sort of standard. If this was to happen then I believe that you will end up with 1 or 2 companies selling a couple of very simple models at extortionate prices.
What we do need though, is confidence that the models won't fall apart. As I mentioned above, I believe that this is achieved by manufacturers adopting a thorough flight testing programme and also by them listening to the customer when they uncover problems and working on fixing these issues as they arise. These 2 simple things may result in a huge improvement in the quality of the models and their safety, but these same 2 principles are the very ones that some of these companies seem completely uninterested in adopting.
04-17-2013, 07:23 AM
#534
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: Jack Diaz
Andy, I don't want to sound pessimist, but nothing is going to happen.
People will continue lining up to buy ''pretty'' airplanes.
Once you buy them, is human nature to defend them. Until something happens !!
Jack
Andy, I don't want to sound pessimist, but nothing is going to happen.
People will continue lining up to buy ''pretty'' airplanes.
Once you buy them, is human nature to defend them. Until something happens !!
Jack
04-17-2013, 07:34 AM
#536
Thread Starter
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: erh7771
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
04-17-2013, 07:38 AM
#537
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
Not to be too picky but your kinda contradicting yourself when you say that they shouldn't hire professional engineers in the development of their jets yet we should all expect that their models don't fall apart in the air.
I would be interested to know what NASA level engineer was involved in the design of something like the Boomerang Jets range of models and they seem to stay together ok (with the added caveat that I don't actually know Alan Cardash's credentials and who he had to help him so I might be barking up the wrong tree). They have, however, been thoroughly flight tested before you or I get to play with them. You might say that models like the Boomerangs are a different league to something like an F14 and I would agree. Maybe companies should know their limits and work up the complexity ladder, rather than jumping in at the deep end. I see that FEJ are already working on a bigger F14. God knows how that one will work out [X(]
04-17-2013, 07:42 AM
#538
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
Anton has in the past, and I know it first hand because it was my F-16 he replaced within days of being notified of the problem.
Furthermore, he replaced everything...gear, plane ETC with a bigger, better version.
The FEJ rep is wrong.
Beave
Furthermore, he replaced everything...gear, plane ETC with a bigger, better version.
The FEJ rep is wrong.
Beave
ORIGINAL: dubd
I know of a number of cases where other manufacturers have replaced airframes. I know these people personally! A FEJ rep told me that no manufacturer provides replacement airframes after a crash... The rep and I know the same people, so either he has a really bad memory, or he was....
ORIGINAL: erh7771
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
04-17-2013, 07:44 AM
#539
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
If they don't make it right for Dantley things will not go well for them. Mark my words. They have another thing coming to them if they expect to treat people like this and have a friendly welcome at Jet events. I will personally see that each and every person attending the event knows what they did if I am there.
If they don't make it right for Dantley things will not go well for them. Mark my words. They have another thing coming to them if they expect to treat people like this and have a friendly welcome at Jet events. I will personally see that each and every person attending the event knows what they did if I am there.
Regards,
Jim
04-17-2013, 07:45 AM
#540
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RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: David Searles
Sean,
I could be wrong, but think of this example: I balanced the stabs on my 1/7 F-18F, so well in fact that the JR 8711 servos had a hard time determining their ''center''. They would hunt back and forth until a load was placed on them, then they would lock in. I think he is saying the same thing. If the stabs are perfectly balanced there is no feel. Leave them just slightly out of balance and the feel returns. Overall they are balanced, just not completely neutral. I eventually took a little of the weight out of my stabs to create the same effect and the servos stopped the chatter.
David S
ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft
John,
Thanks for the explanation. It 'helps' in the sense that I now know that some people mean 'balanced on the pivot' when they say ''mass-balanced'', but it leaves me more confused because it seems to ignore everything I wrote after ''...does 'mass-balanced' mean...''
You're saying they're balanced on the pivot, then un-balanced to make it feel better for the pilot? Not only do I not get that, but it seems a demonstration that the surface is, in fact, not balanced on the pivot. Anyone who's ever pulled on the yoke of a piper aircraft knows that the stab is QUITE tail-heavy until the prop-wash aerodynamically balances it. In fact, that aero-balancing seems effective enough that they put a tab on it that resists your input and gives it some force-feel.
It may not seem like it, but I'm really trying to understand this.
John,
Thanks for the explanation. It 'helps' in the sense that I now know that some people mean 'balanced on the pivot' when they say ''mass-balanced'', but it leaves me more confused because it seems to ignore everything I wrote after ''...does 'mass-balanced' mean...''
You're saying they're balanced on the pivot, then un-balanced to make it feel better for the pilot? Not only do I not get that, but it seems a demonstration that the surface is, in fact, not balanced on the pivot. Anyone who's ever pulled on the yoke of a piper aircraft knows that the stab is QUITE tail-heavy until the prop-wash aerodynamically balances it. In fact, that aero-balancing seems effective enough that they put a tab on it that resists your input and gives it some force-feel.It may not seem like it, but I'm really trying to understand this.
I could be wrong, but think of this example: I balanced the stabs on my 1/7 F-18F, so well in fact that the JR 8711 servos had a hard time determining their ''center''. They would hunt back and forth until a load was placed on them, then they would lock in. I think he is saying the same thing. If the stabs are perfectly balanced there is no feel. Leave them just slightly out of balance and the feel returns. Overall they are balanced, just not completely neutral. I eventually took a little of the weight out of my stabs to create the same effect and the servos stopped the chatter.
David S
That is exactly what I was trying to say, thank you.
Shaun, like many thing with aeroplanes it is a compromise. If you completely statically balance your surface, (tailplane rudder or aileron). it will not suffer this mode of flutter, although there are other flutter modes. However the aircraft is not very nice to fly like this, so a compromise position is reached. Enough mass behind the pivot to provide the pilot with feel, but not enough to induce flutter below VNE. I statically balance all the surfaces that it is physically possible to balance.
John
04-17-2013, 07:56 AM
#541
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: rcjets_63
Wow Andy, that's pretty intense. I can understand why you feel that way what with you losing two FEJ jets due to shoddy design and workmanship. Did the tailpipe collapse on your F-18 result in a total loss? It sure was spectacular when the wing blew off on your F-16 at Kentucky during the high G turn.
Regards,
Jim
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
If they don't make it right for Dantley things will not go well for them. Mark my words. They have another thing coming to them if they expect to treat people like this and have a friendly welcome at Jet events. I will personally see that each and every person attending the event knows what they did if I am there.
If they don't make it right for Dantley things will not go well for them. Mark my words. They have another thing coming to them if they expect to treat people like this and have a friendly welcome at Jet events. I will personally see that each and every person attending the event knows what they did if I am there.
Regards,
Jim
04-17-2013, 08:09 AM
#542
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
To be fair, I have owned and flown several 1/8 F-16s. SM and FEJ included. I flew them harder than any other jets I've owned (including my Bandit). They were highly aerobatic and stable.
Given, these are smaller airframes with tiny wings....which is pretty hard to mess up the design. Besides, the FEJ F-16 was a carbon copy of the SM, even tanks and some of the hardware. The LG parts were fully interchangeable.
Ironically, when I lost my FEJ F-16 and tried to get a replacement airframe.... I quickly found out that the price had increased because the new version is honeycomb. I decided to go with the cheaper Skymaster model, trough BVM (who would have thought!).
04-17-2013, 08:13 AM
#543
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: dubd
I know of a number of cases where other manufacturers have replaced airframes. I know these people personally. A FEJ rep told me that no manufacturer provides replacement airframes after a crash... The rep and I know the same people, so either he has a really bad memory, or he was....
ORIGINAL: erh7771
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
CARF also replaced a crap load of F3A Impacts (?) as the fuselage would wiggle the tail like a happy puppy, to distruction!!
04-17-2013, 08:18 AM
#544
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
Yea, enough is enough!
Sorry Andy, but I had forgotten about your experiences! I'm sure there are many more horror storys. Ones we never heard of and also forgotten.
sorry bud!
Anton stands behind his products 100%!
I was one of the first big F86 owners that found the fin defect. He replaced jet 100%.
Stand up guy! Replied immediately and took care of it. Fixed all other F86 immediately.
The most reputable guy in the business!
Scott
Sorry Andy, but I had forgotten about your experiences! I'm sure there are many more horror storys. Ones we never heard of and also forgotten.
sorry bud!
Anton stands behind his products 100%!
I was one of the first big F86 owners that found the fin defect. He replaced jet 100%.
Stand up guy! Replied immediately and took care of it. Fixed all other F86 immediately.
The most reputable guy in the business!
Scott
04-17-2013, 08:21 AM
#545
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RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
If you want to make sure your plane is not going to come apart in midair I say build it yourself. Then you will know it will not come apart. If it does only one to blame is yourself.
04-17-2013, 08:25 AM
#546
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
Hi,
You gotta get out more. Y/A jets (which are Chinese) and the ARF's (when we made them) are airworthy and have been flown WOT on powerplants much larger than recommended. They've been doing this for decades.
04-17-2013, 08:26 AM
#547
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: henschel
If you want to make sure your plane is not going to come apart in midair I say build it yourself. Then you will know it will not come apart. If it does only one to blame is yourself.
If you want to make sure your plane is not going to come apart in midair I say build it yourself. Then you will know it will not come apart. If it does only one to blame is yourself.
04-17-2013, 08:28 AM
#548
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft
Hi,
You gotta get out more. Y/A jets (which are Chinese) and the ARF's (when we made them) are airworthy and have been flown WOT on powerplants much larger than recommended. They've been doing this for decades.
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
Hi,
You gotta get out more. Y/A jets (which are Chinese) and the ARF's (when we made them) are airworthy and have been flown WOT on powerplants much larger than recommended. They've been doing this for decades.
04-17-2013, 08:36 AM
#549
RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews
You have to consider who made the statement as to the validity of content..
ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft
Hi,
You gotta get out more. Y/A jets (which are Chinese) and the ARF's (when we made them) are airworthy and have been flown WOT on powerplants much larger than recommended. They've been doing this for decades.
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
I have yet to see a Chinese jet flight-demonstrated and flown like a BVM jet. It also appears that dubd flew his jet rather conservatively, yet it still failed. That's just poor engineering.
Hi,
You gotta get out more. Y/A jets (which are Chinese) and the ARF's (when we made them) are airworthy and have been flown WOT on powerplants much larger than recommended. They've been doing this for decades.
But I am on my 2nd yellow airframe and love them. Even stuffed a K180 inside my raptor and flew most of the flight at full throttle pulling the nuts out of it and it held up just fine.
04-17-2013, 08:37 AM
#550
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RE: Fly Eagle Jet F-14 Crash (video)
ORIGINAL: dubd
I know of a number of cases where other manufacturers have replaced airframes. I know these people personally. A FEJ rep told me that no manufacturer provides replacement airframes after a crash... The rep and I know the same people, so either he has a really bad memory, or he was....
ORIGINAL: erh7771
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
What have other model makers done in the past to make things right in these cases?
Thx in advance for any input
regards
Skymaster replaced a Hawk I lost at FJ last year. Anton himself came over and found something that was questionable and immediately offered to replace it.