turnnburn

My Feedback: (49)

Im told by no less of an authority than Buck (yeahbaby) that with the proper lawn/leaf blower I should be able to start my AMT Mercury with one.

So my question is is there a hands down best of the best blower that will get me the RPM required to get a successful start ? My personal home blower would get it to a bit over 7k. Buck says we need 9k or better. In Buck I trust ! !

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

I don't think you need 9k, but I could be wrong. I seem to recall AMT-180's starting at 5k RPM. You can check it by trying it and seeing if the fuel pump starts after the gas is lit. If the temperature goes up when the gas is lit but the pump doesn't start, then you didn't get the RPM high enough. Also, when you light the gas, it helps turn the turbine faster, so if you checked the RPM with just the blower, you might be OK when you light the gas.

Bottom line is, I'd try starting it with your current blower before I bought a new one - it can't do any harm.

Bob

sysiek

My Feedback: (176)

Hi once I did 90mm edf starter 6s power with 100 amp esc and servo tester ,I try some blowers and was just ok with the edf and rpm control the starts was very fast .

FenderBean

B1bob uses an air tank to start his I am sure he can help you with what ever you need

causeitflies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Svsw810G5UU#!

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

We know about starting AMTs with compressed air. I have started AMT-180's, 280's, and 450's with compressed air hundreds of times. I have also done it with a leaf blower, just like the video above. He wants to use a leaf blower because scuba tanks and high pressure air compressors are a PITA to maintain and carry to the field.

The question was how big of a blower was required and how many RPMs you needed before the ECU will start the fuel pump.

I seriously think that if your blower will spin the turbine at 7k RPM without the gas on, it will start the engine. Its worth trying before you spend additional $'s on a bigger blower...

Bob

FenderBean

Oops miss that part, interesting if a leaf blower can be used thats pretty cool.

yeahbaby

My Feedback: (21)

Hopefully, someone can dust off their manual and confirm the min rpm / temp setting for us.

Ultimately, the key to turning this motor over with a leaf blower, battery or gas powered, is the angle at which the directed air hits the compressor face. If you are off even a little bit you will never get it spun over fast enough to meet the minimum rpm / temperature requirements to turn on the fuel pump.

I think the below information has a typo regarding the 88 dC as you won't get start clearance til you get to 138 dC on the airstart motors but the below excerpt is for their E-start Olympus HP. I'm purrty sure all their motors, air or electric, need 9K / 138 dC but I don't have any experience with their Auto Electric start sequence. I can confirm any differences when I return as I have an E-start Peggy HP.

{{The ECU will automatically start the fuel pump and open the fuel solenoid valve
when the RPM reaches 9,000 RPM and the EGT exceeds 88 °C.
If using an external gas container, keep the starting gas regulator fully open until
the ECU is passing idle RPM (36,000 RPM).}}

I think a good fresh off the charger Makita blower with the narrow nozzle will work amigo. I know a gas powered leaf blower will work if the air is directed at the optimum angle.

glad to see you haven't given up on the iron lung, they are great motors even if they are a little overweight by todays standards. :-)

cheers

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Sorry, I don't have a manual anymore.

If its the Gen3 ECU from AMT USA, then you could call Andy Low at Electrodynamics - I'm pretty sure he made those.

Bob

AndyAndrews

For a Mercury from the manual:

Starting:
EGT is over 138 C and RPM exceeds 14,000 RPM. The fuel Pump starts pumping.

Over 138C Engine too hot must cool down.

MAX RPM: 152,600
Idle RPM: 47,600
Normal EGT 650 degrees C
Maximum EGT 750 degrees C
fuel consumption: 9.8 oz min. at Max RPM

rcjetsaok

My Feedback: (7)

Brian,

I have a Scuba set up I'm not using anymore.. It's really the best way to go, no hot starts, good air flow. It might come in handy also when it's time to go get it. [X(] [X(]


Sorry dude, I tried real hard.. But I couldn't.


Danno

Dieselman1220

My Feedback: (25)

OMG!!!!!Epic

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

GEEZZZZZZZZZZ....


Didn't anyone look at the vid posted by Causeitflies?? It's easy to "Blower" start an AMT. (why did I bother to make it ) It's the only way I've started my AMT for the past 2~3 years.


Here's the deal.


1) Blowing air into the front of the engine won't get you very high RPM's because the way the front of the compressor blades are shaped. But... you need a MINIMUM of 2000 RPM to get the ECU to acknowledge that the turbine is spinning. Below that RPM... you will get beeps. I know that sounds low... but remember... you are still moving a large volume of air though the engine, so turbine RPM is irreverent at this point. (Wheel RPM is only important when the wheel is what is moving the starting air)

2) Once you get the minimum RPM's... you can can turn the propane on a little, and move the air away to get it to ignite.

3) Once it pops... put the air on, and slowly turn up the propane. This is what will accelerate the turbine wheels. BUT... force feeding it air with the blower will keep the "Burn" going in the right direction until the wheels are at an RPM where the ECU will take over. (basically once the ECU starts feeding it liquid fuel)




OK... as far as "Air Volume"... that's a hard question to answer. I'm using a generic Bosch 12v heater blower, that I rigged with a momentary switch. On a 3 cell LiPo... it's marginal as far as volume. On a 4 cell... it will start it every time. On your HotSpot... you have better access to the front of the engine... so I'd say you can have ANY cordless leaf blower, and it should work. On my Falcon... since I'm not putting the blower close/straight to the front... I'm loosing a lot of my volume out the other side. I know when the starting gets marginal (when the battery is weak) I put my hand on the other side, to force more air in.

With all that said... if you don't have enough air volume... it simply won't accelerate to the "Liquid Fuel" stage. If that happens... turn off your propane, and keep the air on to cool the engine.

As said above... dragging the ASU and scuba bottles to the field is a TOTAL pain in the butt. Not to mention... if you have an air leak... and your tank is flat... you aren't flying. If I have a prob... I just charge my battery. I've never even given the bottle method a second thought after being able to start it with a blower.

If you have any more questions... I'm sure I'm the last person in the world who actually starts an older engine this way.

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

Here's the 180 manual for the guys who may need it. It's an older version... but my new version is a much larger file size.

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

He has a Gen 1 ECU. So... it's a good reliable ECU. (lol)

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

the manual that Tony posted said 11,300 RPM to start the pump. The point is though, as Tony stated, the propane will help spin the turbine up with the air, so you don't need a blower that can spin it at 11,300 RPM by itself...

Bob

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

Right


I just went down into the garage and gave my engine a blast... and it's only getting to 3500~4500 RPM with just the blower. (never really looked at that too much) But, once the propane ignites... even at the first click on the regulator I got from DreamWorks... it will ramp about to the "Fuel Pump" stage. (then I remove the glow driver) Once I hear the RPM's coming up... I click it about the the third "Click"... and wait. Once the RPM's get above 11,500... and the fuel is introduced... I click it up to the last position, and pull the blower away.


Now... this is the important part........


Once the RPM's ramp up to 65,000 RPM... TURN OFF THE PROPANE !!!!! this is the RPM where the ECU learns the stable pump voltage. If the propane is still on... and it goes past the calibration... the engine wont' run right, and it won't idle. If this happens... it's not a big deal... shut down the engine... cool it down with the blower... and restart.


Good luck

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

anyone have a rpm sensor for a mercury 180?

jackjet

yeahbaby

My Feedback: (21)

Great stuff fellas!! I'd like to add that once the propane lights pull the glow plug igniter and once you get a good solid light off with JetA or K1 you can turn off the propane. You can follow the prompts on the edt but it has a bit of a delay.

Additionally, True the leaf blower doesn't have to get it to 11,300 rpm but its been my experience that it needs to get it to 9000 rpm and 138 degree C before the ecu will even turn on the fuel pump. The ignition of propane will aid in the acceleration but a weak blower won't crank it over by itself and the risk of a hot start increases rapidly.

come on Brian jump into the stone age... The water feels great!!

You can also try an air mattress aka inflate a mate blower. It works great also.......whaaaaat?

AMTdude

All great info...except for " it can't hurt to try try it " ~ In fact, running the turbine on a propane fire exclusively without fuel being pumped will shorten the bearing life by the SECOND. Charge the leaf blower and hopefully get enough rpm as monitoring with an EDT. If temp gets over 180^ and the pump does not start - Immediately STOP - and close off propane source. As mentioned above you MAY get a start if the blower takes you close to 8k rpm and the propane provides the final 1-2k necessary. On my compressor in the shop i could get in excess of 12k rpm on all 180's - AIR ONLY...some even more rpm. It depends on bearing pre-load and bearing quality. Finally if you have missed two consecutive starts which have increased the temperature of the turbine to 180^C or more, oil can be introduced to the lubrication system by removing the the "L" fitting and moving the now "unused" air nipple to the "L" fitting and squirt in 2cc of pure turbine oil to prevent damage to the bearings via excess heat during missed starts.


8k rpm and excess of 124^C

PS: I'm looking for a job if anyone is hiring in the Jet Turbine Field. :-)

yeahbaby

My Feedback: (21)

Yup!! Thanks for the reminder about prolonged running w/o fuel.

cbooth1979

My Feedback: (22)

Hi,

You may be able to start with a blower but why not just do the correct thing and get a scuba tank? As AMTdude said, the longer you have to sit there trying to get your engine to RPM the longer your bearings are going without lube. I have a 280/Pegasus and I use 2 tanks...1 large tank and then a small pony tank that I can get 3-4 starts from. I also have a line so I can fill the little tank from the big tank. The key is to get good at starting the engine...once you get the sequence down you can get a lot of starts off your tanks.

-Carl

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

Becasue SCUBA tanks are a pain in the butt. They are large, heavy, and you have to take them somewhere to be filled.

Did you watch my vid above? I'm pumping liquid fuel just as fast as if I was using a scuba tank.


Anyway guys... do what you want. All I can do is put the info out there.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

...and they have to be hydro tested every 5 years, which costs about a hundred bucks...

I'm with you Tony, I think starting them with a blower is fine - if you do it right as in your video, it starts as fast as with the compressed air. All gas-start engines run dry during the starting phase and its worked fine for years. If you're worried about the bearings, why not inject a bit of lube between flights as AMTdude suggested?...

Bob

cbooth1979

My Feedback: (22)

Just had both my tanks hydo tested and filled for $84. Im not saying it cant be done just saying that its probably the safest bet for someone just starting out with an airstart engine.