National 747 crash
04-30-2013, 04:41 PM
#51
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RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
This statement assumes the cargo was aft loaded prior to takeoff. As described by witnesses, the airplane took off, was climbing out, and then abruptly pulled the nose up sharply. Now, knowing how inaccurate witness accounts can be, I still get the feeling this is something that happened during the takeoff phase, and not some preexisting condition on the ground. Nobody really knows real factual data yet. That's what the NTSB investigations are for.
For you full scale guys on heavy iron, is there any way to tell the load is off while on the ground besides doing the math? AND how far aft can the CG go before the jet is either light on its nose wheel or just tips on its tail?
Its amazing to me that will the sensors and technology employed in aerospace that there isnt a scale built into the landing gear, maybe through the hydraulics in the struts, to get some accurate read on the CG of the aircraft prior to flight.
Its amazing to me that will the sensors and technology employed in aerospace that there isnt a scale built into the landing gear, maybe through the hydraulics in the struts, to get some accurate read on the CG of the aircraft prior to flight.
This leads me to the thought that something diverted their attention just after rotation and before the "positive rate - gear up" call out. Not much time between the two......
04-30-2013, 04:52 PM
#52
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RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: speed is life
well the video shows it impacting with the gear still down.
This leads me to the thought that something diverted their attention just after rotation and before the ''positive rate - gear up'' call out. Not much time between the two......
ORIGINAL: Doug Cronkhite
This statement assumes the cargo was aft loaded prior to takeoff. As described by witnesses, the airplane took off, was climbing out, and then abruptly pulled the nose up sharply. Now, knowing how inaccurate witness accounts can be, I still get the feeling this is something that happened during the takeoff phase, and not some preexisting condition on the ground. Nobody really knows real factual data yet. That's what the NTSB investigations are for.
For you full scale guys on heavy iron, is there any way to tell the load is off while on the ground besides doing the math? AND how far aft can the CG go before the jet is either light on its nose wheel or just tips on its tail?
Its amazing to me that will the sensors and technology employed in aerospace that there isnt a scale built into the landing gear, maybe through the hydraulics in the struts, to get some accurate read on the CG of the aircraft prior to flight.
Its amazing to me that will the sensors and technology employed in aerospace that there isnt a scale built into the landing gear, maybe through the hydraulics in the struts, to get some accurate read on the CG of the aircraft prior to flight.
This leads me to the thought that something diverted their attention just after rotation and before the ''positive rate - gear up'' call out. Not much time between the two......
04-30-2013, 04:52 PM
#53
RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: jdrd
Having flown 747 freighters for Northwest and being familiar with the hazard of load shift, I suspect that the truck shifted during the take off roll. A heavy take off takes about 45 seconds of roll from start to rotation. The full shift was probably complete right at or near rotation speed causing the unrecoverable pitch up with full power. All numbers in the FMC were probably correct for take off. There is a warning message during taxi if there is a CG problem. The nosewheel strut is part of the system. The accident aircraft appears to be a B-747-800 or 747-400.
My heart goes out to the crew and families. A nightmare scenario that could not be controlled once deep into the take off roll. There is not enough time/elevator or trim to recover controlled flight once that much weight shifts to the rear.
Joe Grice
Having flown 747 freighters for Northwest and being familiar with the hazard of load shift, I suspect that the truck shifted during the take off roll. A heavy take off takes about 45 seconds of roll from start to rotation. The full shift was probably complete right at or near rotation speed causing the unrecoverable pitch up with full power. All numbers in the FMC were probably correct for take off. There is a warning message during taxi if there is a CG problem. The nosewheel strut is part of the system. The accident aircraft appears to be a B-747-800 or 747-400.
My heart goes out to the crew and families. A nightmare scenario that could not be controlled once deep into the take off roll. There is not enough time/elevator or trim to recover controlled flight once that much weight shifts to the rear.
Joe Grice
04-30-2013, 05:01 PM
#54
RE: National 747 crash
On the C-5, We didnt have any way of knowing if the load was off prior to takeoff. However, if the loadmaster didnt engage the pallet locks, or tie down the rolling stock correctly, when the rotate call was called, the cargo will roll aft.
04-30-2013, 06:24 PM
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RE: National 747 crash
Tragic to watch this. Flew into Bagram many times on C17 and Blackhawks. There some temporary living quarteres on that end of the field near the perimeter road. We would run it for PT daily. Haven't heard if it hit any ground casualties.
Some of the post here are clearly from some who have never been in harms way or have stood a watch. Clowns. 3D really?
Some of the post here are clearly from some who have never been in harms way or have stood a watch. Clowns. 3D really?
04-30-2013, 06:29 PM
#61
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RE: National 747 crash
There was an anti mine personell vehicle on board, large and heavy. It is suspected that it came loose and shifted to the rear of the aircraft. A lot heavier than normal pallat footprint.
Joe Grice
Joe Grice
04-30-2013, 06:30 PM
#62
RE: National 747 crash
There were some questions about weather the crew would have had backup knowledge of CG before takeoff, by way of sensor, to back up what the load sheet and load master said. (Was there a loading error?)
The aircraft was a B-747-400BCF. The BCF means Boeing Converted Freighter. It was an Air France passenger jet delivered in the 1990s and then changed to a Freighter in 2007. The BCF was sold to Icelandic "Air Atlanta" in 2010. I've flown B-747-400 passenger jets, -400F's, -400BCF's, etc. As far as I know, I believe all BCF's have two "gross error check" computers that would pick up CG errors and stab trim errors based on the nose wheel weight sensor. Now, these being electronic and mechanical systems, the hardware, people and procedures all have to work in concert for the system to work. I can't say I know anything about this company or the crew, I just assume that they had the procedures and hardware to a level that would prevent against a raw gross error in loading or stab trim settings. But you never know.
As far as pallets go, the BCF's have a pretty robust pallet locking mechanism thast consists of many redundant metal locking pins and clamps. They are pretty easy to see if they are clamped or not. Now there can be a cascade of failures from clamps to pallets themselves, so that can be full of areas. A load shift, once it happens, causes immediate CG problems and not all are catastrophic. But a load shift "can" potentially result in damage that might tear out the flight control cables in the back of the jet depending on what shifted and how much.
I'm not making guesses on the crash, it could be anything from the mundanely shocking to something more sinister, I haven't a clue. Just shedding a little bit of light on the load/CG/stab trim monitoring capability of this type of jet.
The aircraft was a B-747-400BCF. The BCF means Boeing Converted Freighter. It was an Air France passenger jet delivered in the 1990s and then changed to a Freighter in 2007. The BCF was sold to Icelandic "Air Atlanta" in 2010. I've flown B-747-400 passenger jets, -400F's, -400BCF's, etc. As far as I know, I believe all BCF's have two "gross error check" computers that would pick up CG errors and stab trim errors based on the nose wheel weight sensor. Now, these being electronic and mechanical systems, the hardware, people and procedures all have to work in concert for the system to work. I can't say I know anything about this company or the crew, I just assume that they had the procedures and hardware to a level that would prevent against a raw gross error in loading or stab trim settings. But you never know.
As far as pallets go, the BCF's have a pretty robust pallet locking mechanism thast consists of many redundant metal locking pins and clamps. They are pretty easy to see if they are clamped or not. Now there can be a cascade of failures from clamps to pallets themselves, so that can be full of areas. A load shift, once it happens, causes immediate CG problems and not all are catastrophic. But a load shift "can" potentially result in damage that might tear out the flight control cables in the back of the jet depending on what shifted and how much.
I'm not making guesses on the crash, it could be anything from the mundanely shocking to something more sinister, I haven't a clue. Just shedding a little bit of light on the load/CG/stab trim monitoring capability of this type of jet.
04-30-2013, 07:10 PM
#63
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RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: rcjetsaok
This may be a silly question, but what cargo would they be airlifting out of Afghanistan ? I could only imagine freight going in not out...
Curious Dan..
This may be a silly question, but what cargo would they be airlifting out of Afghanistan ? I could only imagine freight going in not out...
Curious Dan..
04-30-2013, 07:19 PM
#64
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RE: National 747 crash
aircraft dont need a big shift to become unflyable. just enough to get them out a bit does it. this was probably way more that a small weight shift. back in 1965 i was slated for loadmaster school in the AF,,for c 141 s,,,,i nevr got out of basic becaquse of a messed up knee that sent me home with a medical discharge. weight and balance can be critical in many ways. i witnessed a crash of a J-3 because it took of 40 lbs over grose weight . this was due to the weight of the 2 guys in it. there were no injurys but the cub was a mess.
04-30-2013, 07:20 PM
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RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: DiscoWings
Would like to see more video, why was the jet pointing striaght up, was the pilot knocked out? What was he trying to do? Hover the jet?
Sad but seriously PILOT Error!
Would like to see more video, why was the jet pointing striaght up, was the pilot knocked out? What was he trying to do? Hover the jet?
Sad but seriously PILOT Error!
04-30-2013, 07:34 PM
#67
RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: Whistling Death
Douche.
ORIGINAL: DiscoWings
Would like to see more video, why was the jet pointing striaght up, was the pilot knocked out? What was he trying to do? Hover the jet?
Sad but seriously PILOT Error!
Would like to see more video, why was the jet pointing striaght up, was the pilot knocked out? What was he trying to do? Hover the jet?
Sad but seriously PILOT Error!
04-30-2013, 08:55 PM
#69
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RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: pandissix
Tragic to watch this. Flew into Bagram many times on C17 and Blackhawks. There some temporary living quarteres on that end of the field near the perimeter road. We would run it for PT daily. Haven't heard if it hit any ground casualties.
Some of the post here are clearly from some who have never been in harms way or have stood a watch. Clowns. 3D really?
Tragic to watch this. Flew into Bagram many times on C17 and Blackhawks. There some temporary living quarteres on that end of the field near the perimeter road. We would run it for PT daily. Haven't heard if it hit any ground casualties.
Some of the post here are clearly from some who have never been in harms way or have stood a watch. Clowns. 3D really?
Thanks for your service brother.
Agreed on multiple issues and a main one is: CLOWNS, STAY OFF THIS THREAD. Not the time to display your ignorance. Take your hat off like the rest of us and pray for the lost lives and their families.
Shaz
04-30-2013, 09:04 PM
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RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: sskianpour
pandissix,
Thanks for your service brother.
Agreed on multiple issues and a main one is: CLOWNS, STAY OFF THIS THREAD. Not the time to display your ignorance. Take your hat off like the rest of us and pray for the lost lives and their families.
Shaz
ORIGINAL: pandissix
Tragic to watch this. Flew into Bagram many times on C17 and Blackhawks. There some temporary living quarteres on that end of the field near the perimeter road. We would run it for PT daily. Haven't heard if it hit any ground casualties.
Some of the post here are clearly from some who have never been in harms way or have stood a watch. Clowns. 3D really?
Tragic to watch this. Flew into Bagram many times on C17 and Blackhawks. There some temporary living quarteres on that end of the field near the perimeter road. We would run it for PT daily. Haven't heard if it hit any ground casualties.
Some of the post here are clearly from some who have never been in harms way or have stood a watch. Clowns. 3D really?
Thanks for your service brother.
Agreed on multiple issues and a main one is: CLOWNS, STAY OFF THIS THREAD. Not the time to display your ignorance. Take your hat off like the rest of us and pray for the lost lives and their families.
Shaz
Z
05-01-2013, 02:50 AM
#72
RE: National 747 crash
I used to be a Capt of a Boeing 727 flying freight. Gross weight at around 175,000 pound take off weight. We always worried about shifting freight, especially if there weren't any containers behind those over the wings. As pilots, even though the Engineer would watch, we couldn't get behind to make sure all of the locks were locked. Most of the guy's loading the jets were that of lower education, and didn't totally understand the consequences. I have had a few flights, where the cargo wasn't weighed, but guessed!! Each container could weigh up to 8-10K pounds, depending on the location. They knew at rotation, but it is too late by then, and actually, I bet the freight shifted on accelleration, the jet rotated premature, and they couldn't stop it. On one of my take off, beside pulling the yoke with both hands, I had to be on the high speed trim just to get the jet off of the ground. Fortunately, we were nose heavy. By this time, you are past the go-no go point, and have no choice. I had the container weighed again at the hub, and every one of them were a couple thousand pounds off. Truly ashamed, and most of the time, you don't hear about cargo wrecks, because it is only 3 pilots and no passengers. Rest in peace.
05-01-2013, 02:53 AM
#73
RE: National 747 crash
ORIGINAL: speed is life
YGBSM.....I guess you are the investigator, judge, and executioner all in one expert package? Shoot, then who needs the NTSB with you here to declare the findings. You HAVE graduated from an accredited accident investigation course? Sheesh.......
ORIGINAL: DiscoWings
Would like to see more video, why was the jet pointing striaght up, was the pilot knocked out? What was he trying to do? Hover the jet?
Sad but seriously PILOT Error!
Would like to see more video, why was the jet pointing striaght up, was the pilot knocked out? What was he trying to do? Hover the jet?
Sad but seriously PILOT Error!
05-01-2013, 02:59 AM
#74
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RE: National 747 crash
Here's a couple of stories on what's being removed from Afghanistan..
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/3...ast-5-billion/
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...wal/56138058/1
Lots of stuff to take home so the bad guys don't eventually get it when we leave
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/3...ast-5-billion/
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...wal/56138058/1
Lots of stuff to take home so the bad guys don't eventually get it when we leave
05-01-2013, 03:37 AM
#75
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RE: National 747 crash
Looks like one of the crewmembers was a modeler, according to a brief description on the web-news this morning. Said his passion was "building model planes and working on real ones". While it is such a tragic loss of life and my heart is heavy for the families, we have lost one of our own. God be with them and us.
Respectfully
Loopman
Respectfully
Loopman