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DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

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Old 05-18-2013, 12:43 PM
  #1
Chris Pyrah
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Default DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Looking at posts on here regarding Airframes for the P20 ,Why is it that the P20 has been around for 3 years or more now but it seems has there never been a decent airframe built specifically for this turbine.Ok the Gbr jets Stinger , but I am thinking about an airframe around the 52" (2400mm) wingspan range with all composite construction, turbine rails fitted with a pipe and tank, electric trailing link retracts similar in shape to the Gryphon/Ultra Flash etc ,a jet that will fit in the car built up ready to go ,not another ruddy ducted fan conversion, I have tried to ask Chinese factories to build something but not had much luck,How many P20 have been sold worldwide ?, (jetcat wouldn't tell me ! )Surely there would be a good market out there for a jet of this type,I know six in our club who would buy one if available.Reckon whoever manufactured something like this would have a winner, I have built /converted six different airframes now for my P20 all flew well, but a compromise at the end of the day,I would hope a dedicated airframe will be available sometime COME ON MANUFACTURERS GET SOMETHING BUILT
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:07 PM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

2.4 metre span Chris, wadya want, a glider lol?
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:25 PM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

This topic has been up before. I still think the market is too small, and we need to share airframes with the EDF guys. With more powerful EDF options this is not a big problem. Now days we need only a 80-90mm EDF to power a fairly large plane, this makes the inlets closer to scale. Well, not 100% scale but good enough to not look like a beluga.

I'm involved in developing convertion kits for popular EDF airframes and they do very well with turbine power. The ARF's are not dedicated, but they are still very good and with the convertion kit they are still "ARF" not needing any custom solutions. (I've engineeerd dedicated kits for about 10 electric airframes)

I can not see what a dedicated airframe would have that a convertion don't, except the label on the box. But I guess in the future the boxes will say turbine 15-30N too :-)

If we are too trust the gossip the future holds small turbines with lower priceing, but with less performance (thrust to weight ratio) So the choice of airframe is more critical. A 35-40N turbine would be awsome, but weighing in at 1lb it's still useless for alot of airframes.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:48 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

From what I've seen at UK jet meetings, the P20 craze came and went very quickly. IMO the problem with the P20 is it's a very expensive little motor, which goes into an expensive little jet that frankly just doesn't have any 'presence'. Most people have gone back to the bigger turbines (80 and up), so I reckon if you want an airframe for a P20 it will be a DIY job. The GBR Stinger is about it when it comes to nice looking little jets.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:02 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Chicken and egg??

Are people going away from P20s through choice, or because they can't find many decent airframes to put them in?

A P20 isn't any more expensive than many other engines and if you calculate a 'cost per flight' basis then my P20s are probably the best value engines I own.

I would be interested in dedicated P20 airframes or professional conversion kits (such as those made by Marc for the Habu 32) but there just doesn't seem to be much around. Unless you want to convert something from the likes of HobbyKing or Nitroplanes you are pretty much stumped.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:42 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

chris that L59 is nice not many airframes around for p20s i wish ther was a small boeing 727 for a single p20. eflite need to bring out more edf 90mm fan jets as they have some good flying planes like the habu which flys nice on a p20"
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:16 PM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

You cant say this little L59 is not a pretty little Jet, it flies very well too, and strangely does have presence in the air ,but it took a lot of effort to convert.my point is a nice 1400 mm jet that fits in the car ready to go for that quick jet fix down at the club, we are fortunate to have a field with unlimited accessso to be able to get a couple of hours in (with a couple of litres of fuel !) without loading up the car with gear is a good thing and to have a quick build jet available would be brilliant.yes and have the bigger jets for best.We Don't need anymore versions of Extras or Yaks etc we need a P20 jet ! lol
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:31 PM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Chris,have you taken a look at what Russ Delaney is doing over on RCMF? total redesigns of the old thorpe bros kits and well worth a look
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:27 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Hi Jetster,Thanks for that, a very interesting link. http://www.rcmf.co.uk/4um/index.php/topic,94424.0.html It is great to see that Russ is taking the time, effort and expense to develop / produce a British product ,I will be making enquiries about his models that look to be coming available very soon.Thanks Chris
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Old 05-23-2013, 03:12 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

I've sold more P-20's in the last 2 months than any other size of JetCat...four in the last 2 weeks, so don't dream about it being dead.
When I had dinner with JetCat and convinced them to do this project back in 2007 they couldn't see it and said the P-20 would cost the same as the P120...I said fine, here is an order for 10 units. For many its not the cost, its the logistics, small car/workshop/flying site. The P-20 gave the average modeller a chance to have a turbine. The reason manufactures have not taken it on is "proper" kits need to be nearly as much as a bigger (120 size) turbine as the material is a tiny part of the cost and like assembling a P-20 its much more time consuming. Modellers don't live in the real "business" world and think because its small it should be cheap. Small means expensive in so many things, unless Volume comes in.
Some conversions are perfect, the Habu 32 works so well (I've sold 3 conversion sets in the last week) and its only the difficulty getting kits that's slowed it down. I'm getting people to buy kits from mainland Europe where they are still in stock.

Airworld did my 2004-5 conversion to the EDF Cougar as a dedicated turbine model. AW also have the Skyrunner 300 (not that they are capable of delivering )

We don't see them at Jetmeetings as people don't need an airfield to fly them...the whole point

Anyway, there are things being worked on...

Dw
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:18 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Just to compliment Dave's above points, the P20 is pretty economical on fuel usage also, so for those of us that have smaller cars you only need carry a lawn mower sized jerry can and still get many flights out of it.
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:27 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Quandry

Just to compliment Dave's above points, the P20 is pretty economical on fuel usage also, so for those of us that have smaller cars you only need carry a lawn mower sized jerry can and still get many flights out of it.
When my fuel station felt "empty" (for big jets) I'd grab it and go flying with one of my P-20 models. 650ml a flight against 4ltrs!

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Old 05-23-2013, 06:12 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Dave,it would be brilliant if you could convince the likes of CARF that we would love a 1300mm size Ultraflash (or similar).for the P20 Brigade..cheers ,Chris
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:15 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

The El Bandito is a perfect airframe for this motor to bad it is out of production.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:46 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Chris Pyrah

Dave,it would be brilliant if you could convince the likes of CARF that we would love a 1300mm size Ultraflash (or similar).for the P20 Brigade..cheers ,Chris
What would you gain over the Stinger more then a larger variety? As I see it if you were to make a dedicated plane for the P20 it would have to be Schübeler quality to keep it light, to gain anything over a EDF convertion such as the Habu32. It still flies, but it would not harm to shave 1lb off or so. Making anything high quality usually brings the price up and you loose customers. Not because you have a bad product but as $1500 is alot more money then the L59 above costs. Even spending money on a p20 most people are cheap when it comes to the airframe, holding the HK ARFs very high just because they are cheap.







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Old 05-23-2013, 08:48 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Bob_B

The El Bandito is a perfect airframe for this motor to bad it is out of production.
The El Bandito is a rocket even with 3kW of EDF power. I would say from my experience that a P20 in the Elbandito would equal a 4.5kW EDF setup or so.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:49 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Aerobertics.be situated near Brugge Belgium has the Habu 32 in stock at 229 euros if that would work for you, ps not the foamie but he has that one also.

Ps, it's probably the best shop you have ever seen.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:52 AM
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....
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN


I had done quite a few already.
P-20 is about same power to EDF at 2kw.
I even had my Habu 32 wit 4.3kw power doing over 200 down wind.
So P-20 is good engine for most common 70-90mm EDF jets.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:27 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

Do so much agree with Dave's statement!!!

Looking at myself, unfortunately to less time to play cause of being abroad a lot work wise.
So the ease of the small sise jet is so superb in this case on all aspects, Easy build, Easy storage, Easy carriage to field ect. etc.
Kinde of plug and play size i would say.
I really think there would be a great market for nice looking jets P20 size cause i know already al lot of guy's just don't want to jump in to the turbine thing cause of it's complexity on the mentioned items above.

So put me on the list for the "mini Ultra flash" i would say
Put it in an other way, I would without any problem be more than happy to order 10 of them if this would pull certain developers over the edge to start producing.

The only other rising item would be the P20 itself , quite a thing to get your hands on one.............. Taught we where in crisis

But never the less, thanks Dave, looking really forward to next week coming home and opening my box waiting for me


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Old 05-23-2013, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Henke Torphammar


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Chris Pyrah

Dave,it would be brilliant if you could convince the likes of CARF that we would love a 1300mm size Ultraflash (or similar).for the P20 Brigade..cheers ,Chris
What would you gain over the Stinger more then a larger variety? As I see it if you were to make a dedicated plane for the P20 it would have to be Schübeler quality to keep it light, to gain anything over a EDF convertion such as the Habu32. It still flies, but it would not harm to shave 1lb off or so. Making anything high quality usually brings the price up and you loose customers. Not because you have a bad product but as $1500 is alot more money then the L59 above costs. Even spending money on a p20 most people are cheap when it comes to the airframe, holding the HK ARFs very high just because they are cheap.







Henke.I personally never liked the Habu much as it was too small and hard to see, I had 2 of them , I built a 52"Bobcat which was much better for my taste, its that small increase in size that makes it for me, easier too see and a bit better on the wing loading, I would expect a decent airframe only, to be made available at around the £500 mark. (it only needs to be boomerang quality)lol
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:53 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

CARF will never do it...Makes no commercial sense. Even with the good P-20 sales, overall the market is P-120-140 driven and there are a lot of choice...and historic sales. Lambert and JetCat are the only players at the table in this size and I think I need to sell another 100 P-20's before any of my big kit manufacturers would have a look.
Schubeler Hawk is a great combo, but way about the £500 price mark. Wood ARF's are a possible, though the Chinese are moving up the price point on manufactured kits, so less likely. Small models need constant/consistent supervision in manufacture.
The new Graupner/Ready2fly Viper looks like a possible airframe.

Dw
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:39 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

I've looked at the Stinger a few times and came very close to ordering one when Marc was selling them. I decided to hold back to see what customer reviews surfaced and nothing really appeared. This might be a great jet for the P20 but for those of us that stuggle to get to big meets like Jetpower and see it for ourselves, it's really hard to get enough information to tell.

I agree with both sides of the fence about the Habu 32. It is a good flying model on the P20 but, for me at least, it isn't exactly relaxing and you have to be a little careful with it. I think the wing loading is just a touch on the marginal side (although the ease of landing does seem to go against this). I think the Stinger is marginally bigger and this may be enough to make the difference between a good model and a great one but I'd like to see someone else go for it first

At 620 Euros for the basic white airframe (£530) it's not cheap but also not extortionate. If more info (pictures/videos/reviews etc) were available then maybe it would be more popular. Even the Tomahawk website has only very limited info.


One of the big joys of a P20 model is the ability to take it to the local field and have a relaxing flying session from a not-so-perfect field. The problem with swept wing models like the Habu and the Stinger is that they are small and fast, which is great if you like that sort of thing but not so good if you're starting to feel the effects of age and your eyesight/reactions aren't what they used to be. This is one reason why i like the Ducty so much as it is just so easy to see and fly. If CARF (or someone of equal quality) would make a slightly bigger, straight(ish) wing sport jet (maybe something like a mini Classic Flash) then I would certainly buy one. I can understand why manufacturers might not want to produce a model that may only sell in limited numbers but I think that there would still be enough sales to make a profit.

I may temporarily retire my Habu and move the P20 into a Jet Teng Hawk to see if it is any better but I have my doubts. At the same time I'll also be searching to see if I can find anything else that might be suitable.

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Old 05-23-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Chris Pyrah

Henke.I personally never liked the Habu much as it was too small and hard to see, I had 2 of them , I built a 52''Bobcat which was much better for my taste, its that small increase in size that makes it for me, easier too see and a bit better on the wing loading, I would expect a decent airframe only, to be made available at around the £500 mark. (it only needs to be boomerang quality)lol
I know this was not in the origin question, but check the foam airframes too. There are new ones that do very well. I currently fly a Viperjet of 57" wingspan which is incredible. There are also a big 63" Epic Victory that I think would do great, although not a rocket with a P20. The new EPO kits are very good and I se alot of new ones comeing. Yak 130 60"-ish, J10 Fighter etc.

I like them, not because they are better then a composite airframe in terms of flying characteristics, but as they completly relaxes you making the flying super fun.

Me and a friend toying with our turbine powerd Hobby Topgun Mig15's


My EPO Viperjet
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Old 05-23-2013, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: DEDICATED JET FOR P20,WHEN

I've just had a look for the Graupner Viperjet that Dave mentioned and have found it on the Graupner website. I'm liking the look of this

http://www.graupner.de/en/products/a...3/product.aspx
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