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lithium batteries

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Old 07-18-2013, 01:23 PM
  #1  
David Gladwin
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Default lithium batteries

I have raised the issue of lithium battery safety before and, of course, got the usual retorts from the usual keyboard warriors.

Well, there was a serious fire on a new Boeing 787 (of Ethiopian Airlines, which was seriously damaged) parked at LHR last week which seems to have been caused by an unattended lithium manganese battery powering the ELT, the Emergency Locator Transmitter.

This, the initial report by the UK AAIB, might be worth reading if YOU use lithium batteries.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...3%20ET-AOP.pdf

Take it for what its worth.

David Gladwin.
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:35 PM
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Edgar Perez
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Link not working for me
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Interesting. The link didn't work for me either but I thought lithium manganese were supposed to be the safer alternative to lipos back when they first came out. I remember videos of them being drilled through with no issues.

Marty
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Guys try this

Alan
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
Ec88918.pdf (126.3 KB, 18 views)
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Old 07-18-2013, 06:05 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

That worked thanks.
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:41 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries



For all you guys useing Jet Fuel all fuels and batteries have dangers.... but there is a real hypersensitivity to lithium batteries which I understand. I have stacks of lipos in my shop... in ammo cans and fire bags. Only charge outside with a balance charge... made my switch to electric in 2006 and have had no fires. You have to treat them with great respect. I have never seen a lipo burn for no reason at all. They have all been from charging or crash damage

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUPIDVMl8XM[/youtube]
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries


ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

I have raised the issue of lithium battery safety before and, of course, got the usual retorts from the usual keyboard warriors.

Well, there was a serious fire on a new Boeing 787 (of Ethiopian Airlines, which was seriously damaged) parked at LHR last week which seems to have been caused by an unattended lithium manganese battery powering the ELT, the Emergency Locator Transmitter.

This, the initial report by the UK AAIB, might be worth reading if YOU use lithium batteries.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...3%20ET-AOP.pdf

Take it for what its worth.

David Gladwin.
And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:37 PM
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David Gladwin
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Absolutely nothing. However, I had a vague notion that with so much use of lithium s, of various types, in jet models it might just be of some interest and provide useful information from a highly credible source, however slight, to those users in possibly preventing a lithium "incident".
I for one, thought that lithium manganese (such as Duralite sell) was less hazardous than lithium polymer, but one of mine recently "ballooned" for no obvious reason.

This sort of comment is why I really don't bother much with RCU these days.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:44 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

"This sort of comment is why I really don't bother much with RCU these days"

Just ignore them David.

Gary.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:46 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Hi Dave,
Please keep your comments and articles coming some of us appreciate a decent read.

Thank you.

Ivan
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:11 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Don't be put off David.

What this episode with Boeings has shown is how far behind the current practice the full size planes are. I guess this is because of the very long gestation period between being designed and gaining airworthy certificates. This is an area where we could have helped them as we identified Lipos catching fire regularly some years ago, and that they cannot easily be extinguished. I like others have seen them catch fire for no apparent reason even when they are not being used or charged. I thought the manganese ones were 'safer', but it appears the term is relative. The great mystery is why Boeing did not opt for A123 batteries which many of us now use as these have been proved much safer and give better discharge characteristics. Also I have not seen any reports of spontaneous combustion with A123 batteries.

John


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Old 07-19-2013, 01:47 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

David, always nice to hear what you have to say.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:07 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

OP,
I read the article with interest. I don't take much away from it because I do not use the manganese type lithium battery. I however am aware of the dense smoke produced when one of these lithium batteries ignites. It is of real concern that in this situation the batteries ignited without direct cause. There is likely more to the story because 6000 units have been produced without problem.

I have ammo boxes to transport and store my lipo batteries. I try to keep them in a cool environment 70-85 degrees. I never charge unattended. I always balance charge. I have a serious investment in charging equipment. I do not fly my batteries long and hard. I try to leave the batteries at 3.6v/s or more during use. What more would you have me do?

If you are trying to get me to stop using lithium-polymer batteries, then provide an alternative that is in a comparable price range and produces similar power. Until I see that, I will continue to carefully use the Li-po technology.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:39 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries


ORIGINAL: Justflying1

Hi Dave,
Please keep your comments and articles coming some of us appreciate a decent read.

Thank you.

Ivan
Ditto, thanks for the info David. BTW, your enthusiasm and knowlege regarding the Weatronic system is what got me interested in it on here about 3 years ago. I have now converted my entire fleet. Probably would have never known about it otherwise.

Ignore the naysayers. You can state " the sky is blue" on RCU and someone will argue with you, call you names, maybe even call you and your countrymen communists LOL, yes, I've had it happen!

Mike

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Old 07-19-2013, 03:47 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

I am also one person that doesn´t understand why use LiPo´s in turbine jets. We don´t need such energy density or endurance as our wing loadings aren´t affected by this negligible gain in weight and our flights aren´t longer than 10 minutes.


And for those who enjoy doing 20 flights a day, there are excellent quick charging batts and field chargers that allows doing it safely. (and likely with as little weight)


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Old 07-19-2013, 04:36 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries


ORIGINAL: on_your_six
I have ammo boxes to transport and store my lipo batteries.
Do the boxes have vent holes? If a lipo did fire off it will release a lot of gas, turning a sealed box into a potential bomb.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:38 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

David,
Your comments are always of interest. Seems the RCU jet forum attracts more and more adolescents these days. Not much about jets anymore.

Battery safety remains a viable topic.
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:38 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

The article said that if there was a short is unknown.... so we can't say it was the battery at fault at this time

If you short any battery you will have a fire

Watch this genius short out a Nimh pack....lol... I was at california jets in 2007 someone was fast charging a nicad in there jet. It exploded with the sound of a shot gun, lit on fire and almost took out the whole plane. They acted fast and got it out in time

accidents will happen.... I personally believe lithum packs are as safe as any other battery when used right. For an electric pilot like myself they are on of the biggest advancements in the hobby. Human error is going to be the biggest danger, set charger wrong, short of leads, damage packs.... and then the rare fluke accident

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDwyA45IZck[/youtube]

or set your charger wrong with an A123

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-RPhqkg5z0[/youtube]
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Old 07-19-2013, 07:38 AM
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ORIGINAL: on_your_six

OP,
I read the article with interest. I don't take much away from it because I do not use the manganese type lithium battery. I however am aware of the dense smoke produced when one of these lithium batteries ignites. It is of real concern that in this situation the batteries ignited without direct cause. There is likely more to the story because 6000 units have been produced without problem.

I have ammo boxes to transport and store my lipo batteries. I try to keep them in a cool environment 70-85 degrees. I never charge unattended. I always balance charge. I have a serious investment in charging equipment. I do not fly my batteries long and hard. I try to leave the batteries at 3.6v/s or more during use. What more would you have me do?

If you are trying to get me to stop using lithium-polymer batteries, then provide an alternative that is in a comparable price range and produces similar power. Until I see that, I will continue to carefully use the Li-po technology.
I really do not think that David was trying to preach, merely to inform of an occurance. With posts like that I'm not surprised he does'nt come on here often.

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Old 07-19-2013, 07:48 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Where in that article does it actually come out and say the batteries were to blame?
I read there was some battery issues BUT they DO NOT KNOW if it was due to an external short or the actual batteries. They say that the batteries could have provided the energy for a short to cause the fire.
If it was an external short you cannot hold the batteries responsible, ANY chemistry of battery can provide the energy for the short to cause a fire.
Sorry to say this is nothing but fear mongering as the linked article itself doesn't even come to a positive conclusion to the cause of the fire.
They say could have been a short, could have been the batteries.....
Also nowhere in the article do they state the batteries burned, ceiling tiles and insulation yes but not the batteries

"Detailed examination of the ELT has shown some indications of disruption to the battery cells"

Some indications of disruption does not sound like burning batteries to me.....

Lotta people stretching to blame this one on lithium batteries!
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Old 07-19-2013, 09:21 AM
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:58 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Oh yes... I have drilled 1/4" holes in the upper corner of the box..so much for water proof... I think that you need the hole to prevent pressure from building inside the box when they are out in the sun (try not to be). The pressure really puffs them. I also leave the batteries that I don't intend to use at home...

I am not sure if the pressure would reach bomb proportions without oxygen to fuel the lipo fire.

You have to be aware of the dangers of these batteries. I teach battery safety to students too!

ORIGINAL: HarryC


ORIGINAL: on_your_six
I have ammo boxes to transport and store my lipo batteries.
Do the boxes have vent holes? If a lipo did fire off it will release a lot of gas, turning a sealed box into a potential bomb.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:08 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

I don't think that you took me quite right. I just don't see an alternative to LiPo technology. You can see all the precautions I take with Lipos. I hope some people got something out of that. Yes they can be dangerous and we are dealing with a lot of current in larger batteries. 5000mAhr 65-130c is a big battery with huge fire/smoke potential.

You have to make a decision... do nothing or try to use a product responsibly and carefully. I really don't know of anyone using lithium Manganese. I think that there has been a lot of scare tactics being thrown about against Boeing and their new technology. I don't know what the OP is trying to accomplish with his notice. I appreciated the detailed explanation. Yes, I will fly the 787 anytime I possibly can. Airbus has their own can of worms to worry about.

ORIGINAL: jetster81
ORIGINAL: on_your_six

OP,
I read the article with interest. I don't take much away from it because I do not use the manganese type lithium battery. I however am aware of the dense smoke produced when one of these lithium batteries ignites. It is of real concern that in this situation the batteries ignited without direct cause. There is likely more to the story because 6000 units have been produced without problem.

I have ammo boxes to transport and store my lipo batteries. I try to keep them in a cool environment 70-85 degrees. I never charge unattended. I always balance charge. I have a serious investment in charging equipment. I do not fly my batteries long and hard. I try to leave the batteries at 3.6v/s or more during use. What more would you have me do?

If you are trying to get me to stop using lithium-polymer batteries, then provide an alternative that is in a comparable price range and produces similar power. Until I see that, I will continue to carefully use the Li-po technology.
I really do not think that David was trying to preach, merely to inform of an occurance. With posts like that I'm not surprised he does'nt come on here often.

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Old 07-19-2013, 11:49 AM
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Default RE: lithium batteries

Yea you all are missing the point,, the industry is years behind, ignorant and will not listen...
these fires will continue until "they understand them" yes A123 are better "but" not on their buy list so can not use
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: lithium batteries


ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

........ safety before and, of course, got the usual retorts from the usual keyboard warriors.
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