ModellbauUK

Be interested in your experience of flying jets in your UK based club?

Also, what's the general consensus on noise issues within your clubs relating to jets? Has the noise generated by jets resulted in complaints from the general public? Or is the noise generated by jets generally deemed to be acceptable.

Most clubs in our area, Hampshire, have an 82dB at 7m maximum permissible noise level so clearly jets fall well above this. But is the higher noise level generally accepted as ok.

Ian

siclick33

The 'standard' noise limit test is misleading for jets and isn't appropriate. The BMFA agree and it is specifically stated in their handbook.

Si_B

Jets are a no go at my local club. Risk of fire in crops etc (not sure if that is much worse than a big petro going in or a lipo going up in flames?). Glad the jet meetings are available as this is the time I've managed to squeeze in a lot of flying time. Real lack of clubs in the south west area for jet flying which is a shame.

Regards,
Simon

ModellbauUK

Simon

Fire risk is the issue our club has just pulled as a reason to ban jets. Fire risk isn't an issue this time of year I feel. Need to build a reasonable case to reinstate jets under strict controls.

Any clubs in the south which allow jets?

Think a lot of the time those in control of clubs don't fully understand the operation of jets so build a wall against them. Perhaps we need to educate these people that jets aren't that bad provided they are managed & controlled by knowledgeable and experienced jet pilots. Provided the appropriate control measures are implemented I can see no reason why jets should be any more dangerous than an ic or electric model with a finger cutting blade on the front or 6000mah lipo battery incendiary device.

Ian

JohnMac

There is no question that jets are a greater potential fire risk than other models. However there are things you can do. Assign a vehicle that has the keys left in during flight operations. Fill the boot with Foam fire extinguishers. These are the only type that we have found will put out a fuel fire. Co2 in useless in this situation. The trick is to get to the fire quickly as, in many cases the fire starts small and slowly in a crash on soft ground.
If your club wants to eradicate all risk they should only allow chuck gliders to be flown at the site (with suitable eye protection of course). If they want the risk managed, then the above is a start, but do a proper risk assement for the site. Are you completly surrounded by inflammable crops 12 months a year? So perhaps limit the places you fly to avoid the crops, or the months you fly to avoid the fire hazard months.
Good luck
John

ModellbauUK

Thanks John for your feedback. This is what the chaps at Classic Jets & JMA meets do.

As there is very few clubs in the south who allow jets I looking to get a field local to us to do just that. We have a few members who want to get together to do this as well fly larger models. Now we just need to find a nice remore field with easy access. Oh to live in a country with excess land!!!

JohnMac

I fly at Elvington near York. We are a jet only club. We have members who come great distances to fly with us as we are the only place in the north of England that can have a reasonably large membership and has hard runways. However, our tenure at the site is not assured and we have to have eagle eyes to prevent certain members from loosing the site for us. We enforce strict no fly zones, have standing NOTAMS, and operate in a mannerm that is close to full size practice.
We only get on 18-20 times PA and it is expensive. I can see the situation becoming worse for UK jet modellers, not better.

ModellbauUK

The nearest strip to us is Wroughton and then Merryfield

We are actively looking for a jet strip in the south which hopefully will accommodate the jet fliers in our area. Not confident but we will keep trying

Ian

jetster81

You can still fly Jets at Weston Zoyland (Sedgemoor club)

J.F

Have you looked into wisley aifield? not far from you, tarmac runway, nothing nearby, and not sure if it ever got developed on.
for a suitable fee, i'm sure the farmer would oblige!

Jetflyer3000

In my view it is a red herring about jets being a greater fire hazard. I have been flying them now with several friends at 2 clubs (about 8 Jet flyers) for over 7 years and have actually seen hardly any go in and not a single fire. Now I feel that this s proof enough to dispel the fire risk argument.

As for the noise. e all know the 84 db is a nonsense and wont work with jets. Generally the noise is very different and does not seem to give concern

ModellbauUK

Yes Wisley is a very good option. Has a farmer right next door who fires a shot gun if you fly over his sheep. Plus the strip is earmarked for a waste recycling plant.

ModellbauUK

I agree. We have serious politics in our club at the moment. Any one know of a good website we can register our interest in leasing farmland to set up a new strip for our club. Am told farmers are keen to let the land as they get more per acre from model clubs than they can make elsewhere. We have a few top flyers who would be prepared to put up a good share to secure a new strip. If spaces are available once we've secured a strip I'll advertise memberships here. The key is it have somewhere well maintained to offer to jet pilots

Jet noise is not what I would call a nuisance and most non fliers are amazed by them. The fire risk is minimal. Any IC or electric model loaded with fuel or a fuel cell poses just as much a risk.

siclick33

Have you seen a model jet catch fire after a crash?

I don't want to scaremonger but a turbine fire is not the same as a IC fire (if there has ever been one?). All I can say to Jetflyer3000 is that if you haven't seen a post-crash fire then I hope you never do. I've been flying turbines for a fair while but don't fly that frequently (maybe 1 once or twice a month) and I've witnessed more than 1. None of the post-crash fires that I have seen have caused any damage other than to the model, partly by good fortune and partly by having the right equipment to hand. The risk can be managed by having the right attitude and the right safety equipment, but it would be foolhardy to think that the risk is a 'red herring'. The best way to deal with this issue is not to pretend the risk isn't there in the hope that you can mislead a club into letting you fly turbines, but to admit that it is a possibility, prepare for it, show everyone that you are prepared for it and educate those that don't fly turbines as to how professional you are.

Geoff White

Ian,

Have you considered advertising in a farming periodical? About 5 years ago when I thought we were going to lose our local flying field, I put an advert in Farmers Weekly saying that I wanted to lease a field for a leisure activity(was deliberately vague) in either Wiltshire/Oxfordshire or Gloucestershire. I was surprised as I got between 5-7 phone calls asking for more details such as costs. Never took it any further before anyone asks.

Worth a try?

Geoff.

ModellbauUK

Good idea Geoff. Think I may try some of the farming forums too

Geoff White

Yeah, worth a try but i don't associate most farmers with using modern technology such as forums

ModellbauUK

Registered with a couple of forum. Both have threads for this. Not many responses. Plus more north England based where there is a lot more farm land I guess. I'll keep you posted of how it goes. They have sections for Rural Diversification which this comes under. I suppose as ad in the most popular farmers mag may be a could idea. I could turn start a register of interested farmers to tie up with needy clubs.

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

Unfortunately... when you get a group of guys, who just don't want turbines... they will make every excuse to ban them. I just went though this with my old club about 2 years ago... and I simply said... "By!" I showed proof that fires were minimal, and the noise in general wasn't bad. AND, actually... it's less than a typical 50cc gasser. Don't get me wrong... I generally liked the people there, and it felt like I was loosing a friend... but I had to be true to myself, and go to a club that allowed turbines to fly.

Luck for me... the new club is only 25 mi away.



I agree.

The JPO had a document showing that very few crashes resulted in a fire. As I recall... they recorded over 7000 flights, and around 20 (hard) crashes. And, in those crashes, 2 ended a a fire. AND... I seem to remember that one was from the LiPo battery, and not the fuel. SO... that fire could have been in any model.

I'll try to find it, and post it later.

ModellbauUK

Although not completely indestructible the modern Kevlar tanks go some way to reducing fuel spillage when a crash occurs. This costs us quite a bit as we rightly recognise the risk and use these to minimise the risks.

It's always the people in power that like to use this power at the detriment of clubs and members who want to fly something that they are not interested in. Helicopters are another good example if this. We lost full use of our last field as certain members were flying blade slap manoeuvres on Sunday mornings. These were those in control of the club and felt they could do what they want. The club voted them out, we moved fields and didn't renew their membership.

We are again going through a transition as we want to reintroduce helicopters and continue to fly jets. Only trouble is those in power are again digging their heels in. For no good reason other than a like it or lump it attitude.

Time me for a move again. Our current field has issues with sun position and wind direction so if we find a more suitable strip where we can fly what we want under controlled conditions that will be perfect.

Now to get into the heads of local farmers.

Dave Wilshere

The design of the tank has more to do with the resistance to rupture than just Kevlar as a material. Many plastic tanks are better than composite. I actually think a tank that fails in a big way often reduces the consequences of fire as you get a "flash" burn rather than a slow fed blaze. 10 crashes, 10 different ideal scenarios.
We continue to operate turbines at our grass site, surrounded by crops on four sides. We take sensible precautions, stopping turbine flying in the summer months if we have a "brown" crop in the fields. We are just updating our turbine operation requirements to ensure continued use of the site. It also requires members to be sensible and consider whether a safe flight can be completed (as legally required under our BMFA/CAA rules) this is not just looking at the surrounding risks, but whether as a pilot you are capable of completing the flight safely allowing for the model type, weather conditions and site restrictions. Our committee use the JMA resources available to them to inform what is safe and what is not.
Correct equipment is a biggy, beaters, foam extinguishers, plain water all on site when ever a turbine is flown. That and the statistics that fires are rare should allow a club to show just precaution,after all there are more fires in farmers fields caused by smokers, BBQ's and "youths" than there has ever been from model turbines.

ash 26

Fellow club members are worse than anything that is one reason that I won't join a club again been there done that now 4 years out never enjoyed the hobby as much on my own site with my like minded friends never a problem since

cheers

Andy

ModellbauUK

So has there been any records of jets causing noise complaints?

Dave Wilshere

I know of a club that stopped certain turbines flying as they were much noiser than all the others being flown. That and a Bifo pipe made it really carry and have a pitch that hurt!

Jetflyer3000

I know of one club that had an alleged noise complaint regarding jets. The members and committee I think assumed that it was about turbines but when the situation was investigated I understand that it turned out to be those little foam EDF F16s that used to scream about the sky with out of balance fans