To Use A Power Distribution Panel or Not
11-20-2013, 06:48 PM
#26
Wow, a very interesting and informative discussion with a consensus being two 2300/2500 batteries, a dual connector power safe type receiver, and two very good switches. Guys, can't thank you enough. Going looking for a JR R922 receiver. Chic
11-20-2013, 07:34 PM
#27
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I've been flying jets for a long time. You said your having him build YOUR jet not have him fly it. Absolutely do not use a power panel. It's a complete waste of money and only creates multiple fail points.
Simply use 12 channel rx and direct feed your life or a123, with a smart fly badger switch as I/O to rx. This will be the most reliable, simple method.
In addition, most guys don't know the difference between life and a123! They are two completely different batts with different discharge characteristics. Life batts are by far more reliable!
Simply use 12 channel rx and direct feed your life or a123, with a smart fly badger switch as I/O to rx. This will be the most reliable, simple method.
In addition, most guys don't know the difference between life and a123! They are two completely different batts with different discharge characteristics. Life batts are by far more reliable!
Last edited by stoneenforcer; 11-20-2013 at 07:39 PM.
11-20-2013, 10:18 PM
#28
I've been flying jets for a long time. You said your having him build YOUR jet not have him fly it. Absolutely do not use a power panel. It's a complete waste of money and only creates multiple fail points.
Simply use 12 channel rx and direct feed your life or a123, with a smart fly badger switch as I/O to rx. This will be the most reliable, simple method.
In addition, most guys don't know the difference between life and a123! They are two completely different batts with different discharge characteristics. Life batts are by far more reliable!
Simply use 12 channel rx and direct feed your life or a123, with a smart fly badger switch as I/O to rx. This will be the most reliable, simple method.
In addition, most guys don't know the difference between life and a123! They are two completely different batts with different discharge characteristics. Life batts are by far more reliable!
I do understand there are differences between life's and a123s, but just curious why do you think life's are more reliable?
11-20-2013, 11:49 PM
#29
Super high quality product, super reliable.
Most Life batteries are designed and produced in China with poor quality standards.
I've already seen lots of Life batteries failing, even brand new ones.
Not later than last week we had a customer who came for the maiden of his jet to Scobee with one of its 2S Life Rx packs at 9 V. The whole battery system/ cables/ switch was burning hot due to power transfer between the two packs!!!
11-21-2013, 12:12 AM
#30
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In my view unless your model is very large most of that powerbox stuff and S bus nonsense is just electronic bling. I am another one who believes in the keep it simple idea
11-21-2013, 04:20 AM
#32
11-21-2013, 07:25 AM
#33
Q: What's the difference between A123 LiFe packs and LiFe PO4 packs like Hobbico's LiFeSource™ packs?
*
Two big differences. First, A123's patented 'Nano' plating technology.. at a molecular level the negative plate material stands like a shag carpet rather than laying 'end-to-end'. This produces an incredible amount of surface area gain for A123's negative plate and it's why A123 can tolerate immense current loading without voltage sag. Another benefit to the nano plating technology is a huge increase in cell life. All stored energy systems consume negative plate over time.. with 100+ times the negative plate surface area generated by any competitors plating process the lifespan of the A123 cell is extended immensely. Next, A123's are aluminum cased cylindrical cells with welded alloy end plates and towers like a Nicad cell. This enables a rugged welded strap pack assembly system (like Nicads) that is exceptionally robust and very resistant to vibration and hard knocks. The LiFeSource™ packs are built with wafer stacked 'bag' prismatic cells.. like LiPoly. And, like LiPoly, they are fragile, the cell link tabs are very thin alloy strips and the entire assembly is as a result susceptible to rough handling and vibration. Further, the prismatic cells and their tabbing system are unable to handle anywhere near the current loading the A123 system can tolerate with ease.
*
Two big differences. First, A123's patented 'Nano' plating technology.. at a molecular level the negative plate material stands like a shag carpet rather than laying 'end-to-end'. This produces an incredible amount of surface area gain for A123's negative plate and it's why A123 can tolerate immense current loading without voltage sag. Another benefit to the nano plating technology is a huge increase in cell life. All stored energy systems consume negative plate over time.. with 100+ times the negative plate surface area generated by any competitors plating process the lifespan of the A123 cell is extended immensely. Next, A123's are aluminum cased cylindrical cells with welded alloy end plates and towers like a Nicad cell. This enables a rugged welded strap pack assembly system (like Nicads) that is exceptionally robust and very resistant to vibration and hard knocks. The LiFeSource™ packs are built with wafer stacked 'bag' prismatic cells.. like LiPoly. And, like LiPoly, they are fragile, the cell link tabs are very thin alloy strips and the entire assembly is as a result susceptible to rough handling and vibration. Further, the prismatic cells and their tabbing system are unable to handle anywhere near the current loading the A123 system can tolerate with ease.
11-21-2013, 07:35 AM
#34
Q: What's the difference between A123 LiFe packs and LiFe PO4 packs like Hobbico's LiFeSource™ packs?
*
Two big differences. First, A123's patented 'Nano' plating technology.. at a molecular level the negative plate material stands like a shag carpet rather than laying 'end-to-end'. This produces an incredible amount of surface area gain for A123's negative plate and it's why A123 can tolerate immense current loading without voltage sag. Another benefit to the nano plating technology is a huge increase in cell life. All stored energy systems consume negative plate over time.. with 100+ times the negative plate surface area generated by any competitors plating process the lifespan of the A123 cell is extended immensely. Next, A123's are aluminum cased cylindrical cells with welded alloy end plates and towers like a Nicad cell. This enables a rugged welded strap pack assembly system (like Nicads) that is exceptionally robust and very resistant to vibration and hard knocks. The LiFeSource™ packs are built with wafer stacked 'bag' prismatic cells.. like LiPoly. And, like LiPoly, they are fragile, the cell link tabs are very thin alloy strips and the entire assembly is as a result susceptible to rough handling and vibration. Further, the prismatic cells and their tabbing system are unable to handle anywhere near the current loading the A123 system can tolerate with ease.
*
Two big differences. First, A123's patented 'Nano' plating technology.. at a molecular level the negative plate material stands like a shag carpet rather than laying 'end-to-end'. This produces an incredible amount of surface area gain for A123's negative plate and it's why A123 can tolerate immense current loading without voltage sag. Another benefit to the nano plating technology is a huge increase in cell life. All stored energy systems consume negative plate over time.. with 100+ times the negative plate surface area generated by any competitors plating process the lifespan of the A123 cell is extended immensely. Next, A123's are aluminum cased cylindrical cells with welded alloy end plates and towers like a Nicad cell. This enables a rugged welded strap pack assembly system (like Nicads) that is exceptionally robust and very resistant to vibration and hard knocks. The LiFeSource™ packs are built with wafer stacked 'bag' prismatic cells.. like LiPoly. And, like LiPoly, they are fragile, the cell link tabs are very thin alloy strips and the entire assembly is as a result susceptible to rough handling and vibration. Further, the prismatic cells and their tabbing system are unable to handle anywhere near the current loading the A123 system can tolerate with ease.
My point is that A123 are LiFePo4 batteries.
So A123 and LiFe are not two completely different batteries as Stoneenforcer suggests.
A123 are in fact LiFePo4 with a super anode. Same technology but improved!
The discharge characteristics are not massively different, just a bit flatter for the A123. What makes a huge difference is the current capacity, reliability and longevity of the A123 packs.
11-21-2013, 10:37 AM
#35
Hey Raf! Glad you liked the MAN article. That's a nice kit.
Missed you at BitW.
I stay away from Deans because I've had some trouble with them. (Yes they were the real Ultra Deans connectors and not knock-offs) The connection between the two contacts in a mating pair of Deans connectors is reliant on the red plastic housing on the female end, and the spring on the male end for proper contact. If you aren't careful when soldering your wires to the connectors, you can distort the housing on the female end just enough so that contact is intermittent. I take great care when soldering up Deans connectors and still have experienced this problem. I've also used the trick of inserting male and female connectors together when soldering to help preserve proper alignment, and have still had the problem...in fact it seems to happen more often when doing so. I've had many more instances where these connectors work flawlessly, but for a power to RX connection I want as close to 100% reliability as I can get.
I use the EC3 connectors now because the bullet/socket connection isn't affected by the housing, or wear, or a single leaf spring with varying tension, or poor soldering technique. I used to be less than excited about EC3s because they were difficult to unplug, but a recent redesign to them seems to have cured that problem.
Oli....
Can you say the brand name for the LiFe packs that have given you trouble? I've used A123 cell packs and also a variety of prismatic (flat) LiFe packs and haven't had any failures in any of them yet. I've had a few of the prismatic cells puff, but even then they still worked...even in very high vibration environments. I prefer the A123 can-type cell construction because it is obviously very robust. It sounds like the incident where your customer had a 9V LiFe pack was a charging error, and points to how much safer LiFe cells are over other Lithium chemistries.
KennyMac
Missed you at BitW.
I stay away from Deans because I've had some trouble with them. (Yes they were the real Ultra Deans connectors and not knock-offs) The connection between the two contacts in a mating pair of Deans connectors is reliant on the red plastic housing on the female end, and the spring on the male end for proper contact. If you aren't careful when soldering your wires to the connectors, you can distort the housing on the female end just enough so that contact is intermittent. I take great care when soldering up Deans connectors and still have experienced this problem. I've also used the trick of inserting male and female connectors together when soldering to help preserve proper alignment, and have still had the problem...in fact it seems to happen more often when doing so. I've had many more instances where these connectors work flawlessly, but for a power to RX connection I want as close to 100% reliability as I can get.
I use the EC3 connectors now because the bullet/socket connection isn't affected by the housing, or wear, or a single leaf spring with varying tension, or poor soldering technique. I used to be less than excited about EC3s because they were difficult to unplug, but a recent redesign to them seems to have cured that problem.
Oli....
Can you say the brand name for the LiFe packs that have given you trouble? I've used A123 cell packs and also a variety of prismatic (flat) LiFe packs and haven't had any failures in any of them yet. I've had a few of the prismatic cells puff, but even then they still worked...even in very high vibration environments. I prefer the A123 can-type cell construction because it is obviously very robust. It sounds like the incident where your customer had a 9V LiFe pack was a charging error, and points to how much safer LiFe cells are over other Lithium chemistries.
KennyMac
11-21-2013, 12:04 PM
#36
My Feedback: (1)
I think it depends on the type of flying you are going to do. I am not a Jet guy I was a ducted fan person in the early 80's
Now I fly 80CC 3D planes. I bought a hanger 9 Sukhoi that came with JR servos and wiring installed by the factory and all I had to do is install the Engine and RX and Batt. and fly. And that is that I did. It flew well but did not do aerobatics with "crisp" control movments
After 12 or so flights I installed a Smart Fly and found a great improvement. As I see it if you can pay for a Turbine you should do your best to have the best power for your controls. after all I am only doing 60 to 100 and your going to be twice as fast.
Remember A Rx is only rated about 1 amp of load through the plugs and RX board Add up the servo max amps if all is in use at the same time add a safety factor of 1.5 and that is what you should have in the plane
Gary S
Now I fly 80CC 3D planes. I bought a hanger 9 Sukhoi that came with JR servos and wiring installed by the factory and all I had to do is install the Engine and RX and Batt. and fly. And that is that I did. It flew well but did not do aerobatics with "crisp" control movments
After 12 or so flights I installed a Smart Fly and found a great improvement. As I see it if you can pay for a Turbine you should do your best to have the best power for your controls. after all I am only doing 60 to 100 and your going to be twice as fast.
Remember A Rx is only rated about 1 amp of load through the plugs and RX board Add up the servo max amps if all is in use at the same time add a safety factor of 1.5 and that is what you should have in the plane
Gary S
11-21-2013, 08:17 PM
#38
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I am not a Jet owner but can add to this conversation. I have been building a large Pitts and with the number of high torque servos I thought a power expander would be in order. I did lots of research on issues such as Rx amp ability, servo amp loads, etc. etc. In the end I thought a P.E. was a good idea and I liked what it offered. But two days ago when I finishing making and installing all of the linkage I thought to put a power meter in line, between the P.E. and battery. After having everything hooked up I commenced to thrashing the sticks and much to my surprise the amount of amp draw was ridiculously low. There are 10, 260oz, digital servos in total, and the max amp draw only hit a little over 3 amp. I was told (by Futaba) a Futaba Rx can handle up to 8amp and I thought it would be exceeded easily. I even bound a servo by holding it during the thrashing and barely got an increase in amps. This really surprised me.
11-22-2013, 03:58 AM
#40
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The only thing that can be tricky with a dual A123 configuration ( which I completely love ) is to monitor consumption and capacity available as voltage essentially tells you nothing on this system. For this purpose I use the Emcotec BIC V2 which is not overly expensive and gives you a readout of the used capacity.
http://www.ultimate-jets.net/collect...ts/dpsi-bic-v2
http://www.ultimate-jets.net/collect...ts/dpsi-bic-v2
John
11-22-2013, 09:30 AM
#41
No need for fancy power boxes. In my Hotspot, Super Reaper, and 33% Yak I run two parallel packs. Each pack has its own Maxx Products charge/switch harness. One pack is plugged into the battery receptacle in your receiver and the other plugged into a spare channel. Use any kind of pack you want, but I like good old fashioned NiMhs because they are easily topped off after every flight and are easily monitored with a volt meter. The packs can be of mixed capacity, as in one 2000 mah pack and a 2400 mah pack, but they must be of the same cell count. I use high output 10C capable NiMhs. You charge them separately through their respective charge harnesses. As explained in the article, they cannot "draw" off each other nor can one pack "charge" the other. I find the parallel pack concept to be the easiest, simplest, most cost effective, and in my opinion, safest way to go. But that's just me!
Here the authority on batteries, Red Schofield, explains it: http://www.hangtimes.com/parallel_packs.html
Here the authority on batteries, Red Schofield, explains it: http://www.hangtimes.com/parallel_packs.html
11-22-2013, 02:24 PM
#42
Jet flyers tend to be (as the Beatles sang) dedicated followers of fashion.
There's also the line from manufacturers & distributors 'you have thousands invested in
your jet, how could you take the risk NOT fitting your model with our (insert new gadget here).'
The classic example of this thinking was this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...ver-mount.html
I'm sure there's situations where a power distribution system would be necessary but
for the other 99% of cases it's just more expense, more complication, more weight,
one more thing the average Joe can't understand
& one more thing to fail.
Me? 2 batteries through 2 switches. - John.
There's also the line from manufacturers & distributors 'you have thousands invested in
your jet, how could you take the risk NOT fitting your model with our (insert new gadget here).'
The classic example of this thinking was this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...ver-mount.html
I'm sure there's situations where a power distribution system would be necessary but
for the other 99% of cases it's just more expense, more complication, more weight,
one more thing the average Joe can't understand
& one more thing to fail.Me? 2 batteries through 2 switches. - John.
11-22-2013, 04:30 PM
#45
I am not a Jet owner but can add to this conversation. I have been building a large Pitts and with the number of high torque servos I thought a power expander would be in order. I did lots of research on issues such as Rx amp ability, servo amp loads, etc. etc. In the end I thought a P.E. was a good idea and I liked what it offered. But two days ago when I finishing making and installing all of the linkage I thought to put a power meter in line, between the P.E. and battery. After having everything hooked up I commenced to thrashing the sticks and much to my surprise the amount of amp draw was ridiculously low. There are 10, 260oz, digital servos in total, and the max amp draw only hit a little over 3 amp. I was told (by Futaba) a Futaba Rx can handle up to 8amp and I thought it would be exceeded easily. I even bound a servo by holding it during the thrashing and barely got an increase in amps. This really surprised me.
11-23-2013, 12:51 AM
#46
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Jet flyers tend to be (as the Beatles sang) dedicated followers of fashion.
There's also the line from manufacturers & distributors 'you have thousands invested in
your jet, how could you take the risk NOT fitting your model with our (insert new gadget here).'
The classic example of this thinking was this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...ver-mount.html
I'm sure there's situations where a power distribution system would be necessary but
for the other 99% of cases it's just more expense, more complication, more weight,
one more thing the average Joe can't understand & one more thing to fail.
Me? 2 batteries through 2 switches. - John.
There's also the line from manufacturers & distributors 'you have thousands invested in
your jet, how could you take the risk NOT fitting your model with our (insert new gadget here).'
The classic example of this thinking was this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...ver-mount.html
I'm sure there's situations where a power distribution system would be necessary but
for the other 99% of cases it's just more expense, more complication, more weight,
one more thing the average Joe can't understand
& one more thing to fail.Me? 2 batteries through 2 switches. - John.
11-23-2013, 12:56 AM
#47
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