Vettster

So guys.. I have an older P-60 NON-SE with a vrs5 ECU. Gas Start. The ecu is very large and therefor takes up much room and weight in the smaller airframes I would like to install the P-60 in.

If you purchase the ECU they say you must program it to your engine type. How difficult is it to do this? Im not to computer savvy. OR... Is it just a matter of inputting the data with the GSU since I have all the info on the original ECU.... or is there hidden info in the original ECU that is not accessible?

http://www.xicoy.com/catalog/product...roducts_id=201

EDIT.......................................... Since the time of this post I have got the engine up and running! Here are my current settings

Xicoy setting for JC P-60

Max RPM 165,000
Min 50,00
Pump start auto-3
Start Ramp 7
plug v 2.2
gas 100%
Low voltage cut off 6.v
Start power at ignition 68
Ignition max rpm 6000
min.....................6000
preheat 2 seconds
gas off 45,000 (I dont use a gas solenoid. I feed direct from bottle)
starter at fuel ramp 96
RPM 100% starter power.. 22,000 rpm
RPM OFF Starter 27,000
reconnect 25,000

RUN Menu

Max temp 800c
Start min temp 100c
Stop Speed rpm 40,000
pump limit 812
accel delay 025
decel delay 025 Im going to drop this to 23 I think, but its pretty good now
stability delay 050

To enter these parameters you must turn on the ecu and the hit Negative key first and then Down Arrow before the main screen changes.

Parameter 026 Value 018
Parameter 027 Value 028
Parameter 028 Value 002
Parameter 029 Value 002
Parameter 030 Value 000

These are the settings that work for me. Also be sure to check out the settings in post #65 by Felix that has programmed 2 P-60's already.

smitty1001

My Feedback: (29)

Interesting!

Setting up a blank xicoy ecu is very easy to do, especially for gas start. Done it many times for various brands (but never jetcat) and would be happy to help via phone. Most of the setting from the jc Gsu would be useless because the xicoy uses different units and slightly different names but you could easily get in the ballpark of all parameters even on the first run and go from there. Your biggest issue is going to be mounting the Hall effect rpm sensor under the cowling because jc uses different method. Also you would prob want to use xicoy thermocouples as well.

Vettster

Thanks Smitty! Your help would be great. Setting up the Hall sensor.... Do you think it can be done? How do they differ..

Kelly W

My Feedback: (2)

These ECUs are completely different. The jetcat ECU has its own integrated hall sensor (as far as I know) on and integrated circuit board under the front cover. You'll need to remove all the JetCat electronics, and hopefully substitute an RPM sensor that happens to line up with the diffuser cover's screw pattern. Following that, you'll need to figure out and match up the starter motor and glow circuits. Just because they use multiplex plugs doesn't mean the circuits are the same, and there's a high probability of damaging something if not wired correctly...

On the software side, the easy part will be programming the min / max RPM limits. The far tougher part will be finding appropriate values for the many acceleration parameters and autostart parameters. These will not be a copy past from one ECU to the other, as they are entirely different algorithms.

Sorry if i'm coming off a s a pessimist. The Fadec's are great ECU's, as is the JetCat ECU, but the jetcat is far more evolved and characterized to that engine. Do yourself a favor and read Fadec's user manual + ask a lotta questions before jumping in with both feet. This could get very tricky. It can surely be done, but I'm not aware of anyone who's converted a jetcat engine to run on a FADEC...

If you choose to do it, please post your process and results for the rest of us to learn from...


Good luck.
Kelly

Vettster

Thanks Kelly for pointing out some interesting things needed to know. This is why Im posting.. To learn as much as possible before ordering.

Excellent point to make sure the wires all match up.

So the hall sensor needs to be replaced with the xicoy one in the exact same location. I take it the compressor nut has a magnet in it, in a particular location.

Just a CRAZY thought here on the software.... What if I bought the xicoy fadec from Kingtech, thats used on their K60? If anything.. that would for sure get me in the ball park.

But then again if Smitty thinks he can get me close right out the hole.. I would save about $100

Any thoughts on that Smitty, Kelly?

Vettster

Me thinks its time to clear off the workbench again... Looks like I have a new project.

I'll begin to disassemble the P-60 shortly and confirm the location of this and that.

Pictures to follow

juanjulian

My Feedback: (9)

I don´t see why can´t be done .You will learn a lot in doing so.

Most of todays turbines evolved from the KJ66 turbine. Gaspar was pioneer in developing first fadec for turbines. His fadec are very adaptable to different turbines.

If you google FADEC you will finds several of gaspar old manuals of fadecs with very good instructions in how to set fadec parameters. The old manuals have more technical information than the new ones, since in the old day you had to build your own turbine to have one.

I have learned a lot playing with my old wren 44 manual start.

Assuming that rpm sensor and thermocouple work, recommend to start test:

1. IN MANUAL START MODE: You manage gas and starter. Connect starter to work when pressing a switch. In this configurations you have only to set the very basic parameters.
2. Gas auto start: Once your turbine runs fine in manual start can jump into this part. Probably since you know how to start it manually can replicate it by playing with the starting paramemters.

Search the FADEC manual in GOOGLE lots of good information.

juanjulian

My Feedback: (9)

Forgot:

Xicoy electronica sells the hall magnet that goes below the nut in case the jetcat magnet is not compatible. If you have to take out the nut for new hall mangnet almost certain that you will need to balance turbine.

cheer

Juan

dave.windymiller

The thermocouple for the xicoy is a standard k type thermocouple. You will just need to attach a servo type plug to the wire to fit it into the fadec. I got my hall effect sensor from wren. If you are struggling for a magnet I have some spare magnets with 1/4inch dia hole (many are 6mm!)

Vettster

Thanks Guys... I'll be digging in to her today.

Your right Juan.. A simple search came up with this... http://www.espiell.com/FAD06.pdf and its highly detailed unlike todays version.

Thanks dave for the info on the thermalcouple.. I was thinking along the same lines.

Vettster

So is this over just as It got started? I noticed that the JC hall sensor is lined up directly across from two grub screws that are near the tip of the compressor nut. They are both magnetic. To me this says that the JC hall sensor is picking up 2 pulses per revolution. What if the xicoy fadec is only expecting 1 pulse per rev.?

Vettster

also you can see that the JC Hall sensor sits much higher where as the xicoy one is flat. Though Im sure I could just unsolder the JC one and install it into the xicoy board. maybe.. perhaps..

Why cant I just use the JC hall sensor that is already set up?

The info received from the hall sensor is sent via the phone jack thing. The thermocuopler info is also sent via the same jack. Correct? This is the same for the xicoy fadec on how it receives the info is it not? The EC3 connector just tells the starter motor to work and the glow to work. If I determine that they are wired the same... then should that not need to be messed with and is just a matter of plug and play once the FADEC is programmed?

Anxiously awaiting your replys

Vettster

Still thinking... Could I not just plug the wires in and using the TEST function on the xicoy GSU test each circuit. If I test GLOW and the starter motor spins.. then obviously something is wired different.

Im only changing the Brain(ECU) Not the nerv system(the hardwire circuit assuming all is the same)

Vettster

My letter to Gasper from xicoy

Good day Sir. I would like to make my Jetcat P-60 gas start engine run on
your FADEC. Do you know if your Magnetic RPM sensor will work with the JC
engine as they have two magnetic grub screws at the tip of the compressor
nut, and their Hall sensor sits much higher(about 1cm above the circuit
board) to align with the magnetic grub screws. I am more concerned that
since there is 2 magnetic grub screws... that YOUR FADEC will get a false
reading, thinking that there was 2 revolutions when really there was only 1
rev

His response..

I think that it will work OK, but never tested myself in a P60. It does workon a P70. The magnets on the P70 are installed opposed, so act like a single one. If you get 2 pulses, always you can program the rpm doubled.


Gaspar

I think he means I can cut the RPMs in half. But the fact that it has already been done on a P-70 is promising

bri6672

My Feedback: (6)

Awesome to see you paving the way for this on the forum, keep up the info and updates!

causeitflies

If your assumption is right you would have to double the max RPM, as Gasper says, so the ECU may think the engine is turning 320k but actually it will be turning 160k.

Vettster

Thanks! I hope it works.. Im sure it will.. but something tells me it would be much easier if someone else was doing it lol
Yeah.. I think your right. Thats a bit of a brain teaser

Vettster

Ok.... the FADEC has been ordered with the wires etc.. Will be about a week before I get it. I picked up the airframe for the P-60

Vettster

I asked Gasper at xicoy about the JC circuit board. His response was...

No, you cannot use the JC board, the signals are very different, plus that JC connect the positive of the battery to the engine case, and we use negative ground, you can make a short and burn the fadec.

Gaspar

All my stuff arrived from xicoy a few days ago.. FAST SHIPPING. but I noticed a crack in the starter motor housing on the P-60 so I ordered another from JC. Waiting on that

Vettster

Thanks for the offer on the magnets Dave.. But Gasper says his hall sensor will work with the JC magnets installed.

While I have you here.. you say that I only need to attach a servo wire lead to the thermocouple. But what side is neg and pos? or does it matter. You can see that JC uses all 3 wires.. But on the xicoy there is only 2 wires being used.

Could you please explain this to me.. Im doing this project step by step and can use all the help I can get as electronics is not my strong point.

I have installed the xicoy hall sensor board.

roger.alli

Hi Vettster.

This is an interesting project you have taken on. I am confident you will be successful, especially if Gasper is advising it to be feasible.. (Gasper knows more about model turbine electronics than anyone else on the planet.)

I will answer your question on the Thermocouple. Thermocouples only have two wires. They are a simple device that uses two dissimilar metals which induces a voltage into a circuit when heat is applied. The higher the temp, the more voltage is produced and the ECU reads voltage increase as a temp increase. The three wire JC thermocouple lead probably has an unused cable.

They do need to be connected with the polarity correct.. You cant damage them by reversing the polarity, but if you plug them in reversed, the temperature will display as a fall when you heat the thermocouple. The very tip of the thermocouple wire is the business part. Treat this with care.

You are going to be an ECU expert when this is done.

Roger

Vettster

Thanks very much for your reply Roger... But is there a way I can determine which wire is which.? Perhaps a volt meter and a heat source?

roger.alli

Not really. I think it would be easiest to just plug thermocouple into the the correct port of the ECU, power it up, and connect the GDU (display box).. The temperature should display, and, should increase as you heat the tip of the thermocouple.. (Put the tip in some warm water) Reverse the connection if it goes down

As an aside, the thermocouple does not need to be terribly accurate.. So long as it displays close to room temp, and rises as you heat it..

Roger

Vettster

Thanks Roger. Will wire it up tomorrow.

Vettster

Got the hard wiring done. Sure aint as pretty as the plug an play turbines of today.. but I can cut the wires down for the install after it has been bench run.

I had a bit of extra work to do since I had to install the starter motor in its new housing. First I had to confirm the little red dot on the motor was actually positive and that the motor was spinning in the right direction. Then I had to install it making sure the alignment was bang on. The new housing does not come with pre-drilled holes. Just as Gasper mentioned in his manual.. the starter wires come VERY close to the case and I had to make sure there was no chance of arcing. The rest was easy as pie. Just follow the manual and also every lead is marked on the ECU so its hard to screw up. Just need to solder on a battery plug and then I can mount to the test bench for the part that scares me the most.... Programming the ECU for start up Hey Smitty!!... you still following??

Im going to hook up the old JC ECU first just so that I can record as much info as possible... then transfer the data.