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My FEJ story

Old 04-08-2014, 08:13 PM
  #176  
invertmast
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Originally Posted by Erik R
Since we're off the subject, I've had engine failures on a Dash-8, A-320, and a 757. I think they all qualify as "real" airplanes. They all actually climbed very well, and the subsequent landings were uneventful. Your comparison is disingenuous, as I've heard here before. From the tiniest model, to a 747-400, engine out controllability is a function of excess asymmetrical thrust, versus airspeed, and rudder authority, period. Everything you just said is a categorically untrue generalization. Please don't pontificate with minimal beginners knowledge on the subject.
exactly what i was thinking, even the poor old 1960's vintage A90 kingairs im flying around do very well single engine.. Even at max gross and 5-6,000 density. Now at 10,000+ density, the climb isnt so good..
Old 04-08-2014, 08:23 PM
  #177  
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Look at how nice we are to one another when we're not talking about FEJ! Erik, you and I should crash more often. ;-)
Old 04-09-2014, 03:55 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by bevar
Dantley,

Sorry about the -10...but that is a different animal. Pod mounted engines...lots of drag...it gets ugly early with the -10. Sorry again.

As a humorous side...my statement about fighters still stands...because the only people who call the A-10 a fighter are other A-10 pilots...lol. It's a long story and funny too...

Cheers,

Boli
OK Boli.....now we're getting personal. Anything with a 7 barrel, 30mm cannon and single seat cockpit is a fighter. Trust me.

And look how sleek the A-10 is compared to this Dutch F-5:


Craig

PS: Erick is exactly correct about engine failures in full size jets and the inaccurate comparison to models. Most of our r/c jets are so grossly overpowered in comparison to their full scale counterparts that controllability issues are inevitable.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:52 AM
  #179  
Erik R
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Originally Posted by dubd
Look at how nice we are to one another when we're not talking about FEJ! Erik, you and I should crash more often. ;-)
Dantley,

This taking one for the team crap hurts. I just found out CARF won't have any Shui's for at least 6 weeks. Exploring a custom paint,since I have to wait. Took the Firebird out to the hangar yesterday to run and check it, in prep for this season,after a few mods. Starter slipping on the nut. Engine is buried. 6 hours to pull it,change the oring,and button it back up. My toys are just telling me to take up golf. LOL

Erik
Old 04-09-2014, 05:19 AM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Erik R
Since we're off the subject, I've had engine failures on a Dash-8, A-320, and a 757. I think they all qualify as "real" airplanes. They all actually climbed very well, and the subsequent landings were uneventful. Your comparison is disingenuous, as I've heard here before. From the tiniest model, to a 747-400, engine out controllability is a function of excess asymmetrical thrust, versus airspeed, and rudder authority, period. Everything you just said is a categorically untrue generalization. Please don't pontificate with minimal beginners knowledge on the subject.
Wrong again. The load of an aircraft has just as much to do with controlling an aircraft in engine-out emergencies. While I didn't directly address asymmetrical thrust vs. rudder authority in my statement, I was simply pointing out that not every twin engine aircraft can maintain level flight with one engine out. Sad that you missed that point.

I can also find fault with your statement because you didn't address the use of ailerons during an engine-out situation. But I'm not going to pick on that, I can pretty much figure out you know your stuff and don't need to include every aspect when writing. Nor am I going to write a book on it here just to cover every detail for those like you who look to criticize anyone. Secondly, your statement of "minimal beginners knowledge on the subject" is just another example of your hostility. You don't know me. But seeing as how you like to make it a point that you fly heavy metal and are now an authority on every subject. Here's a few fun facts about me ... ATP (121), 13,000+ hours, Typed in the following A/C: Lear 36A, Falcon 20, Citation V, Merlin, KingAir 250, Sabreliner 65. I was at American several years ago where I was offered a pilot position. I turned it down.

PS
Learn to have some respect for others. Even one's you don't know.

Last edited by Airplanes400; 04-09-2014 at 05:43 AM.
Old 04-09-2014, 05:48 AM
  #181  
Erik R
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Originally Posted by Airplanes400
Wrong again. The load of an aircraft has just as much to do with controlling an aircraft in engine-out emergencies. While I didn't directly address asymmetrical thrust vs. rudder authority in my statement, I was simply pointing out that not every twin engine aircraft can maintain level flight with one engine out. Sad that you missed that point.

I can also find fault with your statement because you didn't address the use of ailerons during an engine-out situation. But I'm not going to pick on that, I can pretty much figure out you know your stuff and don't need to include every aspect when writing. Nor am I going to write a book on it here just to cover every detail for those like you who look to critisize anyone. Secondly, your statement of "minimal beginners knowledge on the subject" is just another example of your hostility. You don't know me. But seeing as how you like to make it a point that you fly heavy metal and are now an authority on every subject. Here's a few fun facts about me ... ATP (121), 13,000+ hours, Typed in the following A/C: Lear 36A, Falcon 20, Citation V, Merlin, KingAir 250, Sabreliner 65. I was at American several years ago where I was offered a pilot position. I turned it down.

PS
Learn to have some respect for others. Even one's you don't know.
Ok. I'm not going down this road with you. I don't post on here much, and I try to treat everyone with respect. You on the other hand, inject your opinion on almost every thread here. I don't think I'm all that. I'm a regular Joe, who likes airplanes, and enjoys hanging around other's who feel the same way. I learn new things about airplanes, and aviation every day.

Almost every time I read one of your posts, I get heartburn, because you pontificate as if you know more than everyone else here. You fight with venom, and fail to ever consider that an opinion that contradicts yours may be right, or at least have merit. I'm not that smart, and have been wrong many times, and will be again.

I usually just ignore your posts, because I don't want to feed into the negativity. I don't want to live like that. I've had a bad week, so I responded in a condescending manner to you. I apologize for that. Not cool, and I regret it. I don't want to fight with you. I'm sorry. All the best,


Erik
Old 04-09-2014, 06:22 AM
  #182  
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Actually...AP does have a point.

I took my multi back in the '80s in a 150 HP Piper Apache. If I recall, critical engine out...all the other engine did was drag you to the scene of the crash because the S/E rate of clime was -50FPM.

That being said, any professional pilot who flys Transport Catagory Swept Wing Aircraft know that you do not use ailerons to help offset engine out performance like you do in recips/ straight wing aircraft. None of the 1/2 ball out, 5 degrees into the operating engine nonsense...that stuff is for girls...lol.

Lastly, American Airlines had 4,000 some odd pilots furloughed from 2001 until about 3 months ago and did not offer pilot positions nor were there even pilot recruitment operations going on from the fall of 2001 until the first new hires were welcome aboard at the end of 2013.

Beave
Old 04-09-2014, 06:38 AM
  #183  
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Craig,

I was hoping you would see my post...lol.

Cheers!

Boli

Originally Posted by CraigG
OK Boli.....now we're getting personal. Anything with a 7 barrel, 30mm cannon and single seat cockpit is a fighter. Trust me.

And look how sleek the A-10 is compared to this Dutch F-5:


Craig

PS: Erick is exactly correct about engine failures in full size jets and the inaccurate comparison to models. Most of our r/c jets are so grossly overpowered in comparison to their full scale counterparts that controllability issues are inevitable.
Old 04-09-2014, 08:38 AM
  #184  
ravill
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Originally Posted by Airplanes400
... Assume that every twin engine R/C plane cannot maintain flight with one engine out.
I'd say that's a safe assumption. Make a B-line for the runway would be what I'd do.

Originally Posted by Erik R
....Since we're off the subject, I've had engine failures on a Dash-8, A-320, and a 757. I think they all qualify as "real" airplanes. They all actually climbed very well, and the subsequent landings were uneventful.... .
Sounds like the above assumption doesn't hold very well for full scale. It probably helps that one is sitting in the airplane, not trying to fly it line of sight?

Originally Posted by bevar
When we were flying Luke's big FB twin F-15 I had so many engine failures in flight I lost count. Must have been in the neighborhood of 15 and it was never a big deal (twin Rhino powered).

I had a couple of engine out with the 1/6 F-18 and it's been no big deal either.

last month at Fl Jets, on my first flight with Luke's Tomahawk F-5 (and the 2nd for the new plane overall) I had an engine quit at rotation, PLUS the gear would not come up. I flew the entire flight on one single Kingtech 140...full fuel, gear down...and a 90 degree cross wind. The result? No big deal. Was it a ball of fire? Nope. Was it a handful? Yep. I just flew it within its current envelope for that flight and landed when the timer ran out.

Any twin fighter type will/ should fly fine with one shutdown, as long as you keep your wits about you and operate it within its engine out envelope. What is it's envelope? It's pretty easy to figure out...if the feedback the stick is giving you says "I don't like what you are doing" stop doing it and back off.

Beave
Beave, you nail it on the head man. You have to feel it. And you're a great pilot to boot! Dantley's a pretty good stick as welll!

And for the record, it seems like the twins you flew have engines very close to the centerline. My instinct would tell me to land. But I'm not that good a pilot.
Old 04-09-2014, 09:38 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by CraigG
OK Boli.....now we're getting personal. Anything with a 7 barrel, 30mm cannon and single seat cockpit is a fighter. Trust me.

And look how sleek the A-10 is compared to this Dutch F-5:


Craig

PS: Erick is exactly correct about engine failures in full size jets and the inaccurate comparison to models. Most of our r/c jets are so grossly overpowered in comparison to their full scale counterparts that controllability issues are inevitable.
You could always refer to it as an F-10 if you want.
Old 04-09-2014, 09:41 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by ravill
We are kinda hijacking Erik's thread, but this topic has been beaten to death all over RCU.

Get some twin experience of any kind and you will see what a handful they can be when an engine dies.

Full opposite rudder doesn't always work, full opposite aileron doesn't always work, etc.....

The closest thing I can think of for good training, other than a simulator ofcourse, would be something along the lines of landing your heavy wingloaded jet in a strong crosswind when you are using EVERY surface (including throttle as it becomes another "surface" on approach) to keep it in line with the center line of a narrow runway (like buttonwillow) i.e. crabbing it in.

After that landing, you will feel like you had a final exam in non-linear multivariable differential equations.

TRUST me, twins with an engine out are nothing to shake the proverbial stick at. The best you can hope for is that you are moving fast enough that air moving over your surfaces will keep it straight enough to fly and line up with the runway because the instant you get slow, it will flip on it's back and kill itself.

Go buy a gas or glow twin (P-38, B-25, etc...), electrics have been much more reliable, and fly one of those around. You will spend ~$1-2k vs $15-$25k. And I bet that $1-2k will still cause you to pucker up REALLY fast with an engine out.

Here is a P-38 with an engine out and the flip of death right around 1 min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBDLP4onEuY

Here's an A-10 were the pilot actually does a pretty good job handling an engine out after take off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mminECOwTk0

I tried to find more for you, but I got lazy after 6 pages looking on youtube for another A-10.

This is just something you have to live with when you're messing with twins!
Would aircraft with twins mounted inside the fuse be any different? I'm thinking planes such as 18's, 14's, 15, etc. with engines both mounted inside the fuse may be able to fly on one engine compared to aircraft with engines mounted on the outside of fuse such as A-10's, twins with engines mounted on wing.
Old 04-09-2014, 10:24 AM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by SushiHunter
Would aircraft with twins mounted inside the fuse be any different? I'm thinking planes such as 18's, 14's, 15, etc. with engines both mounted inside the fuse may be able to fly on one engine compared to aircraft with engines mounted on the outside of fuse such as A-10's, twins with engines mounted on wing.
Yes. In fact, some closely centered twins such as the T-38 are actually considered "center line thrust". Being inside the fuselage is not the issue, but the distance the engines are from the fuselage centerline. It is a physics thing about moment arm and such. FWIW, I wrote a pretty good article on this subject back in 2010 for the JPO mag Contrails. Click on this link and start on page 9 if you're interested: http://www.jetpilots.org/contrails/Spring10.pdf

Craig

PS: Apologies again for thread drift
Old 04-09-2014, 10:41 AM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by CraigG
Yes. In fact, some closely centered twins such as the T-38 are actually considered "center line thrust". Being inside the fuselage is not the issue, but the distance the engines are from the fuselage centerline. It is a physics thing about moment arm and such. FWIW, I wrote a pretty good article on this subject back in 2010 for the JPO mag Contrails. Click on this link and start on page 9 if you're interested: http://www.jetpilots.org/contrails/Spring10.pdf

Craig

PS: Apologies again for thread drift
What if you had a stabilzation board to control your moving surfaces, would that help if any if one engine were to flame out?
Old 04-09-2014, 01:11 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by RonTins
What if you had a stabilzation board to control your moving surfaces, would that help if any if one engine were to flame out?
Not sure what you mean by "stabilization board" FW but if you mean a gyro, the answer would be "maybe" but probably not. Too many other variables involved such as airspeed, power setting, other control inputs and particular aircraft characteristics.
Old 04-09-2014, 01:17 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by CraigG
Not sure what you mean by "stabilization board" FW but if you mean a gyro, the answer would be "maybe" but probably not. Too many other variables involved such as airspeed, power setting, other control inputs and particular aircraft characteristics.
Craig. I am refreing to a stabilization board to level the plane out when the sticks are in nuetral. Eagletree systems have one called Guardian 2D/3D Stabilizer that detects flight in a level attitude. A pilot has authority or control over a model until you let go off the sticks. If the airplane is inverted or in a knife edge for example it returns it back to level flight. Its much more sofisticated than a gyro.
Old 04-09-2014, 01:31 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by RonTins
Craig. I am refreing to a stabilization board to level the plane out when the sticks are in nuetral. Eagletree systems have one called Guardian 2D/3D Stabilizer that detects flight in a level attitude. A pilot has authority or control over a model until you let go off the sticks. If the airplane is inverted or in a knife edge for example it returns it back to level flight. Its much more sofisticated than a gyro.
OK. I haven't used those yet but I would still stick with my previous answer for the same reasons.
Old 04-09-2014, 04:44 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by Erik R
Ok. I'm not going down this road with you. I don't post on here much, and I try to treat everyone with respect. You on the other hand, inject your opinion on almost every thread here. I don't think I'm all that. I'm a regular Joe, who likes airplanes, and enjoys hanging around other's who feel the same way. I learn new things about airplanes, and aviation every day.

Almost every time I read one of your posts, I get heartburn, because you pontificate as if you know more than everyone else here. You fight with venom, and fail to ever consider that an opinion that contradicts yours may be right, or at least have merit. I'm not that smart, and have been wrong many times, and will be again.

I usually just ignore your posts, because I don't want to feed into the negativity. I don't want to live like that. I've had a bad week, so I responded in a condescending manner to you. I apologize for that. Not cool, and I regret it. I don't want to fight with you. I'm sorry. All the best,

Erik
I simply state my opinion and experiences like everyone else does, even you. No harm in that. It's called dialogue. But your responses /attacks towards me always show disdain (like the first part of your response above). I don't start fights, but have often had to defend myself against attacks simply because I'm not "one of the crowd" or part of your "inner-circle of friends who goes to or flys at the jet events" or has 10,000 posts. When I encounter statements like that, I will fight vehemently, and with reason. Because those "claims" have no merit. They make me laugh too. Also, many people feel that the "typical jet crowd" are a bunch of arrogant know-it-alls.

I don't want to be brought into perfidious conversations.

As far as I can see, you (and some others) are the one's who have fought with venom, and would not consider the opinion of another unless you know them, or they agree with you. It's usually the negativity of the reader who injects their own hostility into an innocent statement of another. I hope that ends.

If you don't like my statements about the loss of an engine in some twins, then so be it. You try it. Others have, and they are dead. In the last 20+ years, enough pilots at KFXE (Ft. Lauderdale Exec Airport) have lost an engine after takeoff and have tried to return to the runway to land with just one engine. They are all dead now. Rather than a controlled crash on a road or some other nearby place, they opted to attempt to return to the runway. But they spun in when they lost airspeed/control.

But all this is just nonsense ... Moreover, and more importantly, I'm sorry to learn about the passing of your family members in such a short period of time.

Last edited by Airplanes400; 04-24-2014 at 12:41 PM.
Old 04-09-2014, 05:06 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by bevar
Actually...AP does have a point.

I took my multi back in the '80s in a 150 HP Piper Apache. If I recall, critical engine out...all the other engine did was drag you to the scene of the crash because the S/E rate of clime was -50FPM.

That being said, any professional pilot who flys Transport Catagory Swept Wing Aircraft know that you do not use ailerons to help offset engine out performance like you do in recips/ straight wing aircraft. None of the 1/2 ball out, 5 degrees into the operating engine nonsense...that stuff is for girls...lol.

Lastly, American Airlines had 4,000 some odd pilots furloughed from 2001 until about 3 months ago and did not offer pilot positions nor were there even pilot recruitment operations going on from the fall of 2001 until the first new hires were welcome aboard at the end of 2013.Beave
Every jet & plane has it's own set of engine out procedures. I'd hate to think you guys flying commercial jets think corporate jets are for girls. Although we did have some of the hottest girls flying with us.


It's hard to believe that it was so long ago, but sometimes it's hard to think of the 80's and 90's as being 20 to 30 years ago. Damn, how did I get so old? It was in the mid to late 90's when I was offered the position at American. Also, it's hard to comprehend that American hasn't hired any pilots for 12 years. Somewhere, I remember an incident with American a few years back involving a pilot who was reportedly hired just a year or two prior. That would indicate American as hiring within the timeline you mentioned. I just can't imagine American not having to replace some of all those older pilots who have left within the past 12 years.
Old 04-09-2014, 06:27 PM
  #194  
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Perfidious!? That word is Bombastic, HA!! I love .25 cent words.
Old 04-09-2014, 07:10 PM
  #195  
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Jimmy,

The clock is leaving you behind!!! The accident you are talking about happened on 01 June 1999 in Little Rock with a Chief Pilot flying with a New Hire.

on 9/11/2001 AA had almost 14,000 pilots on the seniority list and began to furlough. The last guy came back about 6 months ago. Not counting USAir, there are just over 9,000 AA pilots currently on the list so in the past decade and some AA eliminated 4000 plus pilot positions, plus Age 65 killed it even more because most of the top guys hung on for 5 more years while the bottom of the list shrunk.

B

Originally Posted by Airplanes400
Every jet & plane has it's own set of engine out procedures. I'd hate to think you guys flying commercial jets think corporate jets are for girls. Although we did have some of the hottest girls flying with us.


It's hard to believe that it was so long ago, but sometimes it's hard to think of the 80's and 90's as being 20 to 30 years ago. Damn, how did I get so old? It was in the mid to late 90's when I was offered the position at American. Also, it's hard to comprehend that American hasn't hired any pilots for 12 years. Somewhere, I remember an incident with American a few years back involving a pilot who was reportedly hired just a year or two prior. That would indicate American as hiring within the timeline you mentioned. I just can't imagine American not having to replace some of all those older pilots who have left within the past 12 years.

Last edited by bevar; 04-09-2014 at 07:13 PM.
Old 04-10-2014, 05:47 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by Erik R
My nice guy hat is off. Genius, how many people have come here and shared their loss. I only know of Dantley. I know Boli saved someones 18 at an event also. Have you ever heard of a manufacturer replacing the turbine and equipment, even if it's a proven factory defect? You can LOL, and hit 1000 question marks, but do you have any personal experience with the situation, or are you just being a blowhard?
I guess you haven't read all the posts here Genus.,.,,,,,I don't come down here and cry about the thousands I've lost with them,,Do a search and read all you can,it may sink in.Your money your loss..
Old 04-10-2014, 07:58 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by ravill
And really that's just it.

I'm sure FEJ and Johnny Wong weren't trying to get it "wong" from the begining.

They are chinese business men that saw the need for a bunch of dumb americans that will buy pretty airplanes. They didn't really care that they crashed, it wasn't a malignant wish for the jets they sold to all crash, it was just those guys not caring about it.

And they had a pretty good run. I bet they've made over $1,000,000 easy on all of us.

Good for them.

And shame on them in the way they did it.

They made pretty airplanes and sold them as fast as they could. They put one flight on their prototype, saw that it flew, patted each other on the back, shared some fortune cookies and passed around the Tsing-Tao.

Then they sold them to us.

Like idiots, we saw how cheap they were, how many different choices we had and well the rest of the story is splattered in smoking craters all accross the US (and the world).

Their concern is CERTAINLY not airworthy airframes.

Their concern is that YOU (and yes, even me sadly) buy from them.

The word is, atleast, out. If you google "fly eagle jets" there are lots of hits of crashes along with their home page.

As a testament to how they really don't pay attention to the details (and, in jets, there are many little devils in the details) they still have a pic of DubD with his ill fated F-14 proudly displayed. If anyone wants to have clear separation from Fly Eagle Jets, it's gotta be DubD.
I'm sure Johnny Wong and the west of them were twying to get it "Wight"
Old 04-11-2014, 06:20 PM
  #198  
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http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...rts-jet-4.html

Have a look athe pics of a F16 I posted for your thoughts.
Old 04-12-2014, 05:06 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by Meesh
I'm sure Johnny Wong and the west of them were twying to get it "Wight"
When you look at the photos on the FEJ website in their "about" section, it really shows a nice factory and facilities. Imagine what someone with skills could do at a place like that. Kick out the management clowns and hire someone who knows how to design jets and who knows how to deal with customer service. FEJ would have all the potential to become a real player in the RC jet market.

it is a textbook example of ridiculously inept and stupid management. Does anyone know who owns FEJ?
Old 04-12-2014, 05:15 AM
  #200  
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John,
There has been so much "here-say" on who owns them, if someone bought them, etc...it's just muddy water and ridiculous to even come to some form of speculation. They "shifted" in a HUGE way about Sept of 2012, saying their "issues" were because of a factory move (I guess the pics you see are of the new factory). Orders went from 8 weeks as promised to 30 weeks or more. Airframes got shipped with missing parts, paint schemes were messed up, etc. Then, the crashes started happening more and more. Until all of this, I had no issues with their airframes. James was incredible at customer service...then he was not involved anymore, and everyone had to deal with "China" direct. About January, 2013...that's when I first heard they were sold to an investor group of some sort...who knows after that.

Rex

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