Midas D.

+1
Why don't go back to simple NiCad or NiMh?? 9 out of 10 we need weight in the nose

Problem solved in my opinion….

Justflying1

I store my ones in an Ammo box after seeing how a fellow Jet modeller was storing his. I also charge in a Lipo bag. In saying this not sure if I would be 100% protected if one catch fire but it's better than nothing. Where I can I do use Life batteries as these are supposed to be a lot safer.

sidgates

My Feedback: (2)

Has any one ever had an A123 or LIFE pack catch fire? I haven't heard of any. I just purchased a couple LIFE soft case packs and wondered about the safety of this type pack.

gooseF22

I was involved in early testing of A123's with Fromeco... we intentionally overcharged them until they gassed, but I was never able to make one do anything other than gas out.. then it failed completely.. that happened around 4.5 volts... Its a strong very noticeable acrid smell, and it got very hot.. The next morning it was dead..

I feel pretty safe with the A123s from that perspective... I also picked up a pack out of a burning wreckage a year back and they were intact.

tuan lam

My Feedback: (1)

Turbotronic

In case anybody is wondering, CO2 does nothing for a lipo fire. Been there. Probably the best is to drop it in water of enough volume to cool it down.
Heavy ceramic pots are the best for storage. We had a local guy who made fireplaces out of ceramic that made a special pot for this.
After he burned his garage down...
Using LiPos in an electric plane is one thing but using a lipo next to JetA is a bad idea. Had one in a fully fueled Rookie go off by itself in my factory. Fortunately someone was there at the time and ran outside with it, cut the fuze open to remove the battery before it got to the plastic fuel tanks... The Lipos were from fongkong...
A123's for me.

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

Lithium is like magnesium in that it reacts with air and adding water only boosts the fire since its effectively adding more O2. The best way is to snuff the fire out either chemically or with sand. If you happen to have enough water in an emergency to drown the reaction then of course that would help.

I prefer LiPo technology as a family of batteries because they give a warning before they blow up. NiCd and NiMh steel round cells will explode like grenades with very little notice. I have seen several cases of single cells exploding and causing as much damage to property or more than a LPo including a little boys eye from schrapnel. LiPos will warn you before they explode there is time to respond to a problem during charging if your present and observant.

Boomerang1

I'll second that. Early in my electric flight days a NiCd cell blew it's top while I was carrying the model
after retrieving it from the runway. This was with the batteries discharged. Went off like a gun with a loud
bang, blew the tail off the model, filled the air with pink stuff like cotton candy & scared the crap out of me!

I've never had a lipo fire. - John.

OldRookie

My Feedback: (13)

It is getting to the point that I just don't think lipo batteries are worth it.
The fire threat is certainly an issue, but I am thinking that even if your house survives a lipo fire, will it survive the toxic gas? Everything in your house exposed to the toxic gasses produced by a lipo fire will probably fail eventually because of the exposure to the toxic fumes. Just to mention a few, how about your furnace, washer, dryer, computer, television, stereo,electric switches and receptacles, lighting fixtures, all of your RC electronics and engines, all exposed metal surfaces, etc.
Just step back, and look at what we are talking about. We are aware of the dangers, but are still exposing our loved ones/family members to this unnecessary danger, just to satisfy our hobby addiction, when there are alternatives to lipo batteries for our power needs.

Greg

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

You've already experienced a Lipo fire which threatened your house. Your kids bedroom is right above your shop.

Seems to me the priority is the safety of your family. Therefore the safest options are to re-locate the shop away from your house or forget about using Lipo batteries.

OldRookie

My Feedback: (13)

But yet we sit at our keyboards, dreaming up some Wyle Cyote inventions to avoid fires from a power source that could be easily replaced.
Ridiculous.

Greg

DrScoles

My Feedback: (18)

Flight packs can be replaced with A123's, planes that use lipo's to drive electric motors cannot. The battery that failed on me was a no name brand that came with a little plane I got at a swap meet. Still very lucky that I caught it puffing and put it outside. I only use TP packs now. As much as I would like, there is nowhere to store batteries off-site. I have a smoke detector above the charging area and two fire extinguishers, plus, I never leave them unattended. However, my current protocol does not address safe storage. I ordered the yellow metal flammable liquid locker I showed above.

Chris, you're little box would be nice for transportation, does Todd stilll carry it? Couldn't find it on the site.

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

Greg many of use are electric only flyers so for now there is no replacing the lipo..... the advancement of the lipo has made things that weren't possible with electric now possible.
It's an awesome power source for those of us that only fly electric so for now we need to educate ourselfs and fellow modelers on the safest way to use and store the packs.

I can tell you that even my local r/c car offroad track is quickly becoming all electric where the electric race days have more drivers than the nitro days.... the lipo cars are much faster and easier to dial in.
Along with no start box, glow plugs, fuel mess, and smoke. But talking with many of my friends that are converting they really have no idea how to handle lipos, so we have to get the word out that they are amazing packs but must be treated with respect and care.

OldRookie

My Feedback: (13)

Ron,

That may all be true, but think about it. None of the lipo powered toys we play with are necessary. There are still fuel engines that can power cars and airplanes just as well as the lipo packs we now use for power. There are also some great LIFE/A123 batteries that are usable if you insist on electric power. These are alternatives even though they may not be as good as lipos. This may be inconvenient or not what you want to hear, but I really hope that none of my fellow modelers will ever have to live with loosing their valuables, or worse yet a family member due to our hobby choices, and living with the realization that it could have been prevented by using an alternative power source.
There are many products that were used daily by everyone, that are now banned because of the danger of using them. Everyone thought they were safe too.

Greg

DrScoles

My Feedback: (18)

And my thread is officially derailed….. LOL I did learn from it, water is a no no, thanks!

OldRookie

My Feedback: (13)

Sorry for bringing up the reality of the dangers of lipos.
You can try to handle them as safely as possible, but that doesn't guarantee safety. This thread is still needed for those of you can't get past the dangers.
Good luck.


Greg

raptureboy

Electric motors on lipos are more efficient than nitro motors, and life batteries will not pack the punch in the size needed for electric flight. The problem is almost always human error. Clay pots will not handle the heat of a burning lipo, your kidding yourself with that one. A steel container lined with fire brick would be the next best thing to charging them outdoors. You can weld on top of a fire brick.

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

ALL BATTERIES ARE DANGEROUS

with that said you must adopt and understand the chemistry your dealing with. Its the same as when we were introduced to NiMh for the first time in this hobby when NiCd was the standard. They are similar BUT different.
There is a standard safety protocol for all battery packs and in addition there are rules for each chemistry.
Like I said before human error is the biggest problem not manufacturing defects or some production/design issue in my experience.

The reason for the popularity of LiPo's in our hobby is simply energy density. The amount of power you can extract from a well balanced power set up will out perform just about ANY fuel burning engine. Thats why these have eclipsed NiMh. Just wrap your head around the technology and practice using them safely and all will be fine.

tuan lam

My Feedback: (1)

I did burn 2 pack 10s lipo's in clay pot before for experiment, how do you know it not work ? have you try it?

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

All of us must decide how much risk we are willing to subject our family and ourselves to in order to enjoy the hobby in the way we prefer.

In my town of almost 100,000 people there are about 100 modelers. In recent years there have been at least 10 Lipo fires in the area resulting in significant property damage. Seems to me the risk level is 1 in 10.

Too risky for me, I prefer a very low level. As my shop shares a roof with my home I've decided not to use them. It's surprising how many people still use them even AFTER burning down their garage!

Len Todd

While it is important to charge and handle LiPos correctly, I think some of these above ideas are clearly over reactions. For example: Placing more than one of any battery in a single container creates a larger fire potential versus the potential offered by one shorted pack. You store them together, if one goes they all go. Or, ... Ammo boxes seem reasonable. But they are also metal. Metal conducts electricity. Could one of the cells short? Could one of the wires short into another battery? Also, riding down the road with batteries shaking around in a metal can seems like it could wear thru the batteries' soft container. One has think about the unintended consequences of what we are doing.

While LiFes typically offer higher than LiPo current ratings, LiFes do not offer the higher voltages. Voltage is what most of our electric planes' and Heli's performance thrive on. By the time you increase the cell count get the necessary voltage out of an LiFe, the weight and size has gone up considerably over the LiPo.

I have had two LiPo fires. Both were caused by me shorting the high-power leads when changing the connectors. (Don't ask, Why two? Field expedience sometimes causes a short memory?) Sand works best to limit the fire, but it still burns to chemical exhaustion. Also, the fire will pop up your concrete. Don't ask how I know. The resulting fire is just like the magnesium fire we used to do in chemistry class, only larger! But, ... they fizzle before they burst into flames. Drop it in a metal container and set it outside to to burn off. Then, ventilate the area well.

I also have crashed a couple planes with LiPos to the point of significantly deforming them. Never had a problem with them. I just poked a hole in the cell cases with a wood stick and tossed them into a bucket with saltwater. Couple days and they were inert.

I even once took a puffed LiPo and poked a hole in each cell and squished out the gas. Put aluminum tape over the holes and used it for several more flights, before I got replacements. No problem! It was just an experiment to keep flying with a battery that grew bigger than the battery box. I am certain that it would not have lasted. But, my temporary fix worked.

If handled and charged correctly, I feel they are reasonably safe. If they were not, I would not be letting the 24 kids in our after-school program handle them (after we show them how to handle them safely.) However, every thing we do involves some degree of risk. IMHO some of the above proposed actions unnecessarily increase the involved risks.

Turbotronic

Water a no-no? Think again, inform yourself. Results from a 10 second Google search.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...-ion-batteries

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...g-li-ion-caged

Fire-Containment Options
The FAA highlighted lithium-ion problems and strategies for dealing with lithium battery fires in a Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO 09013). The FAA recommends: “Utilize a Halon, Halon replacement or water fire extinguisher to prevent the spread of the fire to adjacent battery cells and materials. Pour water, or other non-alcoholic liquid, from any available source over the cells immediately after knockdown or extinguishment of the fire.” The idea is to cool the battery to prevent re-ignition and propagation to other cells. While water reacts with lithium, the amount in the electrolyte is sufficiently small that it is worth the cooling effect of the water when trying to stop the runaway, according to the FAA.

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

I feel lipos can be handled very safe if you follow basic rules.
Just like not smoking around gas. I'm going to work on a lipo safety sheet for my club and will post it her once I have it done.

I've used nothing but lipos (small 2s 1100 to huge 12s 8000mah) packs since 2007 with only one issue caused by me.
I closed an ammo box lid on my pack leads and shorted it out packed started smoking, threw it out in front yard and it lit up.
now I use a rubber band to hold all my leads to the packs side.. I put plain rubber bands on discharged packs and colored bands on fully charged to keep track of them

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

Or, just read what is written by people who have years of professional experience handling testing and designing Lithium battery products.

After the fire erupts you should not throw a small amount of water at the fire because that will augment the fire, as the FAA document states. If you can drown out a single cell fire immediately then do try to. However if the pack is a large capacity multi-cell pack and its starting to go up in flames the rest of the pack will go in just a few seconds. There isnt time to save the pack or other cells. Instead its better to understand the situation.
1) disconnect the battery from the charger OR the charger from the power source. If the charge leads are short and its dangerous to disconnect the battery then unplug the charger instead.
2) once the pack is hot and at least one cell is puffed you have time to respond. Unplug the battery right away and set it outside 10 feet away from anything flammable. Let it cool then cut the leads and drop it in the salt water bucket.
3) leave the area until the battery pack has finished reacting then respond as needed with a fire extinguisher or sand or a water hose if you can do it safely. Generally speaking if the materials surrounding the area are not highly flammable then there is time to respond after the lithium has consumed itself.
4) ventilate the area immediately to get the toxic fumes out if you can do it safely.

You can attack an erupting pack if your quick and accurate in your actions to contain and snuff the pack out. If your present and notice the pack is puffed all you have to do is unplug it and determine if its safe to move it. You can even simply drop the pack on the floor in an open area of the room as long as the floor is not carpet or tile. Hardwood floors will not catch fire with a pack sitting on top of it but there will be some damage (yes prolonged exposure to fire will result in a fire but other factors must be present before a flat hardwood face will catch fire and sustain itself). In a shop the concrete floor will be fine. Its a better option of the poor options you have in an emergency inside your home (which you should not be doing anyway)

In the shop;
1) have a 5 gallon bucket of sand in your shop area AND a 5 gallon bucket of salt water. The sand will help to contain a fire if you can pour it on the pack and the water is for disposal of damaged packs to make them inert.
2) have a Chemical Fire Extinguisher on hand rated ABC and it should be at least 10 pounds.

Never charge a pack on top of flammable materials or near other chemicals. Make a dedicated bench charging area and keep it neat and clutter free.

The part that stays very hot for quite a while after the lithium burns off are the many layers of copper sheets used to build a cell. You can use water to cool this off after the chemical fire has finished, just as the FAA document suggests. What they dont say is how bad the fumes and smoke are. You cannot approach a lithium fire without breathing equipment safely. Even after the event the smell will take your breath away its very intense. If your standing upwind of a pack on fire your ok and you can respond to the fire no problem in an out door situation.

If a pack is having a total failure and all cells are puffed the pack will expand significantly. A 3-4mm thick cell can become 10mm or more in seconds. Multiply that by 3/4/5 cells and the pack will take up a lot of space in a container very quickly. The volume of the container should be ample enough to account for the packs potential physical size and its potential energy. A box measuring 9x6x4 inches can handle a single 3S 3000mah pack failure or any combination of capacity and voltage not to exceed 60 Watt Hours. Above this rating the container must be larger or the pressure inside will cause the container to explode. The container cannot be air tight or it will explode due to expanding gases. This is tried and tested by myself and I have destroyed many packs of all sizes in the pursuit of this info.

Storing a couple, three, packs in one container capable of withstanding the failure of all the packs it is storing is OK. Exceeding the capacity of the container will potentially result in an explosion.

Look there are a million ways to dissect this topic and go round and round but some common sense and paying attention to what your doing will be the best way to not have this unfortunate conversation.
1) make sure you have the right charge profile for the pack your charging NOW not the last time you used the charger.
2) make sure you have good connections and the plugs are not worn out or damaged.
3) make sure the plug solder joints are not cold solder joints
4) make sure you know the packs balance voltage between cells - that doesn't mean you have to balance charge a pack every cycle it just means you need to know the packs condition or state. Thats especially important at the start of the flying season.

Do all of the above 4 steps AND have a proper charging area with sand, salt water and an extinguisher and I will promise you success and safety with Lithium battery packs.

ltc

My Feedback: (3)

i'm surprised no one has brought up the use of LipoSack (the original, not the clones).
It has been shown to be effective in containing a Lipo fire.