Masking Tape and Painting Help Please!
#26
My Feedback: (31)
RAF, the green poly fine line tape is great for hard edges and gentler curves. The scotch 3m tape ID is #218, its what I am using with the flite metal. The blue vinyl is best for tighter radius. The paper blue painters tape you should use ONLY to add surface to lay your protective covering for over spray Both can be picked up at well-stocked auto paint supply stores. Cheers bro!
Oh yeah, I will be retired and back in Cali end of June
Oh yeah, I will be retired and back in Cali end of June
Last edited by NickC5FE; 04-15-2014 at 04:15 PM.
#27
Many when it comes time for the finish work at the end of a long build begin to get anxious to just finish and fly, this is when you should slow down and take your time through the prep work on through your finish. Utilizing the best materials always makes this process go a little smoother for sure, so as others have already stated, there is no substitute for the use of both blue and green fine line tape. Personally I use DuPont Chroma Systems base coat clear coat on all my model paint work but that is just a matter of choice, the clear coat can be applied in ether a gloss finish, through a flat finish by simply adding a flattening compound to the clear coat. Anyway take your time and you will be happy with your results.
Bob
Bob
#28
My Feedback: (22)
Ok, I will add my 2 cents here Rav because you're a good guy. I don't agree with some of the stuff here, and I do agree with other things.
First of all:
Are you flight metaling this F100 or all paint?
If you are using flight metal, remember that flight metal is aluminum tape, being aluminum you SHOULD use a self etching primer on the area's you intend to paint or adhesion will suffer.
As for the grey gelcoat that BVM uses, I agree, don't sand through it, the pinholes under it are awful. However, my recommendation is this:
1. Wash the crap out of the gelcoat before you start doing anything. DO NOT use isopropal alcohol. IF it does find it's way into a pinhole, you will have issues. It is not an appropriate pre paint cleaner. Before you start, wash all the parts with a hot water solution and tide laundry detergent. The POWDER, not liquid. This cuts grease and waxes very very well and does not leave a residue. Once it is washed in that, wash it again. Then use a wax and grease remover like PPG DX330 to clean all the parts. Do not just leave the 330 on there to evaporate, use a clean microfiber to dry it all off.
2. Next, I would recommend sanding all of the gelcoat with 320 to 400, this is another one where I recommend dry sanding this. IF you do wet sand it, leave it for at LEAST 24 hours to dry so that any water that made it into seams, pinholes etc can evaporate out. Dry sanding is easy to deal with, use an air blower when you're done to blow the crap out of everything. Wet sanding will dry dust into holes or seams which can fool you into thinking they are filled. Blowing air on them won't always clear the residue but when you get solvent on there, it can lead to fisheyes, bubbling, or just plain poor adhesion.
3. Once everything is sanded, do any filling you need to do and feather out your fillers. You absolutely can NOT wet sand filler. It is absorbent like a sponge and I have seen bodywork that was wet sanded lead to moisture problems under the paint months after the fact.
4. Then prime the jet. Forget the fact that there is a gelcoat, prime the whole jet. This will give you an even surface for paint, it seals your body fillers, and will either fill, or show you any pinholes. If you do find pinholes, use a paint brush and push some primer into those pinholes.
5. Now you can wet sand, use 800 grit paper wet and sand everything until it's even. Use a guide coat, all a guide coat is is a contrasting paint that you mist over the primer, when all of the misted paint is gone, you've sanded all the primer. If you have low spots or scratches, the guide coat lays in them and you will see them much easier.
6. Next, whatever the overall color of your jet is, spray it all. Yes, it will add a little more weight, but unless you are hammering the paint on like a car with a big gun, it will be minimal. Do NOT over reduce the paint, I don't care what multiple guys on this forum have said regarding over reducing, these paints are developed to mix a certain ratio. Over reducing will dimish your coverage, film build, and adhesion. To get the same coverage you'll end up needing extra coats anyway so why bother doing something that the paint is not meant to do.
7. Tape, 3M fineline tape used to be the best, but the new darker blue stuff sucks. There is an orange fine line tape from a company called FPS (I think) that is thinner, and works much better than the new 3M stuff. Use the 1/8" if you need to do curves, 1/4" for straight lines. the wider tape is easier to keep straight. I REALLY discourage you from using sign vinyl to mask with. There are many reasons. First, it is to high of an adhesion and your chances of lifting the underlying paint is much higher. Second, IF you put it on a little to early, the solvents in the paint will cause the adhesive to come off of the tape and stick to the paint, then you're screwed. The other issue with the sign vinyl, is the solvents even being sprayed over top can attack the vinyl enough to cause the adhesive to come off and stick to your paint. The other issue with it if you are going to cut your curves once on the airplane is the actual cutting, if you cut any deeper than ONLY the vinyl, you have comprimised your underlying paint coat, and potentially even the fiberglass under that. There is actual paint masking vinyl that you can buy, but it's meant to be precut on a vinyl cutter and then applied as a paint mask.
8. When you lay on your next colors, do not leave the tape on for long, you want to peel the tape off about 5 to 10 minutes after your last coat. Any longer and the surface of the paint skins over enough that it can leave a ragged edge. Wait until that paint coat is totally dry before masking over it though. PPG DBC Basecoats (or most any solvent based base coat paints) are dry enough to mask over in 30 to 45 minutes.
9. Once you have all your colors on, get the clear on. You realistically only have about 36 hours before clear SHOULD go on and even that is pushing the time a little. If for some reason you have to leave it for a couple days, spray on a coat of PPG's DBC500 so that when you come back to it you can scuff it with a grey scotchbrite pad before continuing so that you still have good adhesion. This one I cannot stress enough, and while many do not share my opinion, my paint jobs on jets are very light and extremely rich. DO NOT reduce your clear unless the manufacture recommends it!!! You will lower it's adhesion capabilities, it will not flow as nicely, you will increase your chance of runs, Decrease the quality of the gloss, it will shrink more, it is simply not something worth doing. 2 coats of clear is more than enough for a beautiful finish without adding much in weight. If you are doing a flat clear, my recommendation is to spray two coats of gloss clear, let it cure, wet sand it all with 800 grit, and then spray ONE even coat of flat. This will eliminate all the goobers you might have gotten while color painting and clearing, you can apply markings over the sanded gloss clear, and then spray the flat over all of it.
As for setting up a paint booth, you really want to create a negative pressure in the booth, this means you want to have a filtered intake air source with a fan that is pulling the air out of the booth through filters. You can wet the inside of the booth, but if you are using all plastic in there I would advise against it, you will be creating to much humidity in there unless you are moving enough air. If you are going to wet it, do so about an hour before you are going to paint to knock down the dust and run the fan to pull the humidity out.
Anyway, take it for what it's worth, but with well over 1000 motorcycles to my name, many many cars, and at least a couple dozen jets, I know that my methods work and produce excellent results.
First of all:
Are you flight metaling this F100 or all paint?
If you are using flight metal, remember that flight metal is aluminum tape, being aluminum you SHOULD use a self etching primer on the area's you intend to paint or adhesion will suffer.
As for the grey gelcoat that BVM uses, I agree, don't sand through it, the pinholes under it are awful. However, my recommendation is this:
1. Wash the crap out of the gelcoat before you start doing anything. DO NOT use isopropal alcohol. IF it does find it's way into a pinhole, you will have issues. It is not an appropriate pre paint cleaner. Before you start, wash all the parts with a hot water solution and tide laundry detergent. The POWDER, not liquid. This cuts grease and waxes very very well and does not leave a residue. Once it is washed in that, wash it again. Then use a wax and grease remover like PPG DX330 to clean all the parts. Do not just leave the 330 on there to evaporate, use a clean microfiber to dry it all off.
2. Next, I would recommend sanding all of the gelcoat with 320 to 400, this is another one where I recommend dry sanding this. IF you do wet sand it, leave it for at LEAST 24 hours to dry so that any water that made it into seams, pinholes etc can evaporate out. Dry sanding is easy to deal with, use an air blower when you're done to blow the crap out of everything. Wet sanding will dry dust into holes or seams which can fool you into thinking they are filled. Blowing air on them won't always clear the residue but when you get solvent on there, it can lead to fisheyes, bubbling, or just plain poor adhesion.
3. Once everything is sanded, do any filling you need to do and feather out your fillers. You absolutely can NOT wet sand filler. It is absorbent like a sponge and I have seen bodywork that was wet sanded lead to moisture problems under the paint months after the fact.
4. Then prime the jet. Forget the fact that there is a gelcoat, prime the whole jet. This will give you an even surface for paint, it seals your body fillers, and will either fill, or show you any pinholes. If you do find pinholes, use a paint brush and push some primer into those pinholes.
5. Now you can wet sand, use 800 grit paper wet and sand everything until it's even. Use a guide coat, all a guide coat is is a contrasting paint that you mist over the primer, when all of the misted paint is gone, you've sanded all the primer. If you have low spots or scratches, the guide coat lays in them and you will see them much easier.
6. Next, whatever the overall color of your jet is, spray it all. Yes, it will add a little more weight, but unless you are hammering the paint on like a car with a big gun, it will be minimal. Do NOT over reduce the paint, I don't care what multiple guys on this forum have said regarding over reducing, these paints are developed to mix a certain ratio. Over reducing will dimish your coverage, film build, and adhesion. To get the same coverage you'll end up needing extra coats anyway so why bother doing something that the paint is not meant to do.
7. Tape, 3M fineline tape used to be the best, but the new darker blue stuff sucks. There is an orange fine line tape from a company called FPS (I think) that is thinner, and works much better than the new 3M stuff. Use the 1/8" if you need to do curves, 1/4" for straight lines. the wider tape is easier to keep straight. I REALLY discourage you from using sign vinyl to mask with. There are many reasons. First, it is to high of an adhesion and your chances of lifting the underlying paint is much higher. Second, IF you put it on a little to early, the solvents in the paint will cause the adhesive to come off of the tape and stick to the paint, then you're screwed. The other issue with the sign vinyl, is the solvents even being sprayed over top can attack the vinyl enough to cause the adhesive to come off and stick to your paint. The other issue with it if you are going to cut your curves once on the airplane is the actual cutting, if you cut any deeper than ONLY the vinyl, you have comprimised your underlying paint coat, and potentially even the fiberglass under that. There is actual paint masking vinyl that you can buy, but it's meant to be precut on a vinyl cutter and then applied as a paint mask.
8. When you lay on your next colors, do not leave the tape on for long, you want to peel the tape off about 5 to 10 minutes after your last coat. Any longer and the surface of the paint skins over enough that it can leave a ragged edge. Wait until that paint coat is totally dry before masking over it though. PPG DBC Basecoats (or most any solvent based base coat paints) are dry enough to mask over in 30 to 45 minutes.
9. Once you have all your colors on, get the clear on. You realistically only have about 36 hours before clear SHOULD go on and even that is pushing the time a little. If for some reason you have to leave it for a couple days, spray on a coat of PPG's DBC500 so that when you come back to it you can scuff it with a grey scotchbrite pad before continuing so that you still have good adhesion. This one I cannot stress enough, and while many do not share my opinion, my paint jobs on jets are very light and extremely rich. DO NOT reduce your clear unless the manufacture recommends it!!! You will lower it's adhesion capabilities, it will not flow as nicely, you will increase your chance of runs, Decrease the quality of the gloss, it will shrink more, it is simply not something worth doing. 2 coats of clear is more than enough for a beautiful finish without adding much in weight. If you are doing a flat clear, my recommendation is to spray two coats of gloss clear, let it cure, wet sand it all with 800 grit, and then spray ONE even coat of flat. This will eliminate all the goobers you might have gotten while color painting and clearing, you can apply markings over the sanded gloss clear, and then spray the flat over all of it.
As for setting up a paint booth, you really want to create a negative pressure in the booth, this means you want to have a filtered intake air source with a fan that is pulling the air out of the booth through filters. You can wet the inside of the booth, but if you are using all plastic in there I would advise against it, you will be creating to much humidity in there unless you are moving enough air. If you are going to wet it, do so about an hour before you are going to paint to knock down the dust and run the fan to pull the humidity out.
Anyway, take it for what it's worth, but with well over 1000 motorcycles to my name, many many cars, and at least a couple dozen jets, I know that my methods work and produce excellent results.
#29
My Feedback: (22)
Oh, one other thing, buy yourself a roll of actual masking paper from the autobody supplier, newspaper, printer paper etc is loaded with paper fiber dust, newspaper is greasy like crazy, none will give you good results. Buy the white masking paper, the blue waxy stuff isn't great as the dried paint will sometimes blow off of it and land in your wet paint. The brown stuff isn't as dust free as the white either.
#30
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Just sharing what has worked for me in the past primarily with antique autos. But I can't dispute anything that LGM is saying. I have seen his work and he is the master. I would listen to him above most others.
Glenn
Glenn
#33
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Great info Jeremy! I know Rav didn't ask, but what sort of equipment (gun) do you spray with? Something like a Sata mini jet 4? If so, do you use a different tip for color vs clear? I've been using a fairly inexpensive hvlp gravity gun for PPG base coat and clear but it has a 1.4 tip and was wondering if I should use something smaller? Also, thinking I should upgrade the gun. I don't use it a lot, maybe two paint jobs a year, but it would be nice to get a better result out of the gun and reduce (even just a little) the sanding effort etc afterwards. Hope this isn't taking the thread off track Rav.
#34
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I have not had good luck with WATER based CLEARS or any water "echo" friendly stains, driveway sealers where I live in MN....
Not sure I would want to use H20 based clears on a jet that runs on fuel. Watts...Maybe....
I guess that is a ENTIRE NEW post in itself...
Not sure I would want to use H20 based clears on a jet that runs on fuel. Watts...Maybe....
I guess that is a ENTIRE NEW post in itself...
Last edited by kochj; 04-15-2014 at 06:48 PM.
#35
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Great info Jeremy! I know Rav didn't ask, but what sort of equipment (gun) do you spray with? Something like a Sata mini jet 4? If so, do you use a different tip for color vs clear? I've been using a fairly inexpensive hvlp gravity gun for PPG base coat and clear but it has a 1.4 tip and was wondering if I should use something smaller? Also, thinking I should upgrade the gun. I don't use it a lot, maybe two paint jobs a year, but it would be nice to get a better result out of the gun and reduce (even just a little) the sanding effort etc afterwards. Hope this isn't taking the thread off track Rav.
Sean,
I have recommended the Sata Minijet for a long time. If you can only afford one gun for model painting, it would be the one I would recommend. It makes it tougher for overall base coats and clears, but it's a brilliant gun. If you can afford it, get a Minijet for your trim colors, and a Sata RP for overall coverage and clear. I use a 0.8 tip in my minijet and a 1.3 in my RP's for base and clear. If I have a very fine metallic I switch to a 1.2 tip in the RP.
I recently repainted my old CAI Raptor, I used Sata RP3000 for the white basecoat, and the clear and a Minijet for the red, yellow and black. Once the jet was prepped, this entire paintjob from Spraying the white, taping, painting the red white and black, adding a pearl clear, and a final clear coat was 6 hours. Most of the time spent is waiting for the paint to flash so you can mask it, and then the masking. The actual time spent painting was only about 1.5 hours total. The hot section was done the next day using the minijet and an Iwata HP-C airbrush, then cleared with the minijet using a flat clear.
All the paint is Matrix automotive paints, I've switched from PPG just a little over a year ago now. Clear was Matrix MSV-23 which is a fairly inexpensive clear. Their AG40LV is the nicest clear I have ever sprayed, but it is a high solids clear and it is very high solids so I didn't want to use it on an airplane.
#37
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I've compared Frog tape to the 3M green and while frog tape is close, it is not quite as good as 3M green. You get a better line with 3M green automotive tapes together with AU and spray paints.
@rt, I'll check out SystemThree. Looks interesting.
@rt, I'll check out SystemThree. Looks interesting.
Last edited by dbsonic; 04-16-2014 at 07:39 AM.
#40
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But I don't want to spend thousands on paint, paint gun, etc.....
I'll wet sand a bit, mask off, use my airbrush with a compressor (I already own these) especially on the "hot section", I'm even going to build a little paint booth, but a "top gun" paint job... I ain't got in me.
Know thyself.
And I know I'll get too frustrated with all the equipment to do a PPG, top gun style of paint job.
I'll wet sand a bit, mask off, use my airbrush with a compressor (I already own these) especially on the "hot section", I'm even going to build a little paint booth, but a "top gun" paint job... I ain't got in me.
Know thyself.
And I know I'll get too frustrated with all the equipment to do a PPG, top gun style of paint job.
So Raf you plan to paint part of it with rattle can and the rest with your airbrush? Are you going to clear coat it?
EDIT: Sorry I posted right when you were putting those shots up. Looks good No matter what you do, setting up a good place to paint and enough light to see (especially the clear coat) are very important.
Last edited by mr_matt; 04-16-2014 at 08:38 AM.
#41
Thread Starter
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So Raf you plan to paint part of it with rattle can and the rest with your airbrush? Are you going to clear coat it?
EDIT: Sorry I posted right when you were putting those shots up. Looks good No matter what you do, setting up a good place to paint and enough light to see (especially the clear coat) are very important.
EDIT: Sorry I posted right when you were putting those shots up. Looks good No matter what you do, setting up a good place to paint and enough light to see (especially the clear coat) are very important.
Rattle can? No, no, no...
I like to call them CPA's. "Conventional Paint Applicators"
LOL.
Yup, you caught me. That's why I have the pic of the dog being assassinated by all the other dogs on page 1!
But atleast I have a special "applicator".
And yes, I will likely use a glossy clear, especially over the silver/aluminum paint.
No flite metal, I'm too rough when transporting my airplanes.
Last edited by ravill; 04-16-2014 at 09:55 AM.
#42
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My biggest gripe with paint guns (and my airbrush for that matter) is ALL. THE. CLEANING.
I purposely use water based paints in my airbrush because I hate cleaning the damn thing.
I've yet have "CPA" paint react on me, they are super EASY to acquire and the colors are easy to match. Oh and never any cleaning, thinning, no eye or breathing protection (with no paint booth) etc.....
I purposely use water based paints in my airbrush because I hate cleaning the damn thing.
I've yet have "CPA" paint react on me, they are super EASY to acquire and the colors are easy to match. Oh and never any cleaning, thinning, no eye or breathing protection (with no paint booth) etc.....
#43
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OK I get it, no worries. i have painted a pretty big military scheme with an airbrush, it actually added to the scale quality, IMHO.
The clear however will be a problem. The "CPA" clears in my experience must be avoided. They yellow.
The airbrush....well I cant see it laying down enough volume to do the clear.
There are some new 2 part paints in cans that I think give better results. You pop some little canister and then have so many hours to use the paint. I have heard good things about this stuff:
http://www.spraymax.de/index.php?id=329&L=1
The clear however will be a problem. The "CPA" clears in my experience must be avoided. They yellow.
The airbrush....well I cant see it laying down enough volume to do the clear.
There are some new 2 part paints in cans that I think give better results. You pop some little canister and then have so many hours to use the paint. I have heard good things about this stuff:
http://www.spraymax.de/index.php?id=329&L=1
#44
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I typically wear a mask with cannister when I paint. I dont have a full body respirator. However, I do eat McDonalds and drink alcohol oftenly, so my life expectancy is relatively low anyway. Id only wear a respirator if you are faithful to your partner, eat healthy, work out, and there is no history of heart dissease in the family. Else **** it a fan and an open garage door is enough!
#45
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Not sure that is a great idea Falcon- The isocyanate that is the catalyst in two part pants can be absorbed thru, the lungs (primary), skin and mucous membranes. It builds up in the liver and NEVER is broken down. You may not have a problem till years later when you get a primary hepatoma or liver failure. I think I read once that if you can smell it you are already 1000 times over the safe limit. Also a canister mask is like a superhighway to that molecule. Scotty
#46
CPA’s You Say Raf… Pffffffft.
(Althought You will probably get a better finish than I will, using my Sata mini.... And do it in 1/10 of the time).
Now I comprehend the canine reference..
(Althought You will probably get a better finish than I will, using my Sata mini.... And do it in 1/10 of the time).
Now I comprehend the canine reference..
#47
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Agree with what Scotty says. All the "good stuff" is unfortunately quite toxic so you do probably need a fresh air respirator and full suit for this stuff and a paint booth.
In my research the industry does not yet have a true non-iso system yet. I was surprised to find the water based system still uses a isocyanate hardner.
If you don't need a clear there are several safe alternatives. And if need a clear but don't care if it is 'crystal clear' you can actually get away something as simple as Varathane which only has a slight amber quality and quite easy to shoot.
I'll be checking out some of these epoxy clears. Could be like the old Hobby Poxy clear(although who knows how safe it actually was).
I've had some success with spar urethanes but they take forever to dry.
In my research the industry does not yet have a true non-iso system yet. I was surprised to find the water based system still uses a isocyanate hardner.
If you don't need a clear there are several safe alternatives. And if need a clear but don't care if it is 'crystal clear' you can actually get away something as simple as Varathane which only has a slight amber quality and quite easy to shoot.
I'll be checking out some of these epoxy clears. Could be like the old Hobby Poxy clear(although who knows how safe it actually was).
I've had some success with spar urethanes but they take forever to dry.
#48
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Second what matt says, a lot of automotive shops now carry rattle cans that have 2 part clear in, you have to use a provided tool to puncture one section of the can into the other then you have 4 hours to use them.
They are great when you don't want to mix and clean, the spray pattern is awesome, the coverage is awesome. best way for you to go!!
They are great when you don't want to mix and clean, the spray pattern is awesome, the coverage is awesome. best way for you to go!!
#49
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Not sure that is a great idea Falcon- The isocyanate that is the catalyst in two part pants can be absorbed thru, the lungs (primary), skin and mucous membranes. It builds up in the liver and NEVER is broken down. You may not have a problem till years later when you get a primary hepatoma or liver failure. I think I read once that if you can smell it you are already 1000 times over the safe limit. Also a canister mask is like a superhighway to that molecule. Scotty
"We conclude that negative pressure, air-purifying half-facepiece respirators equipped with organic vapor cartridges and paint prefilters provide effective protection against isocyanate exposure in spray and priming operations if workers are properly trained and fitted."
Bob
#50
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I don't want to tell anyone what to do, but here is a quote from an article on testing cartridge masks I found on Pubmed. Note that this is for guys who's job is painting cars - not us guys who use this stuff once in a blue moon...
"We conclude that negative pressure, air-purifying half-facepiece respirators equipped with organic vapor cartridges and paint prefilters provide effective protection against isocyanate exposure in spray and priming operations if workers are properly trained and fitted."
Bob
"We conclude that negative pressure, air-purifying half-facepiece respirators equipped with organic vapor cartridges and paint prefilters provide effective protection against isocyanate exposure in spray and priming operations if workers are properly trained and fitted."
Bob
My post was sarcastic, but this is actually the way I paint. I have plenty of ventialtion (which comes with its own set of requirements as in make sure the area is very clean!). I spray on the upstream side of the ventilation, and you can visually see most of the overspray dissipiating downstream. Then when I take the mask off I do it inside and put it in a plastic bag before storing it. If I ever need to use the very deadly stuff such as Deft.....I give it to an expert to handle it, though I've used it myself in "airbrush" volumes.
Then again, McDonalds and Texas water is killing me at a higher rate than Isocytes.