celso

Hello

I would like to know news about diesel use on JETCAT turbines, since here in Brazil is not so easy to get Kero. I have a P70 and P80SE. I know JETCAT doesn´t allow its use. Is anybody running diesel on these engines? I woul like to hear experiences.
Regards

erbroens

Hi Celso, some people in Curitiba are using diesel with low sulfur content in their jet central turbines without issues, except that ugly smoking at startup and shutdown., As I am also having difficulties in buying jet a-1 and didn´t want that smoke , I gave a try on normal kerosene from a filling pump in a gas station a few blocks from my home,,

I can´t tell any difference in the running of my jetcats since three years ago, Also the filters and jerry can are clean as usual, without any extra debri, algae, etc..

This is the gas station I bought the kero.. maybe you can find one of the same brand near your place: http://us.kekanto.com/biz/auto-posto-mocelin

celso

Thank you Enrique. Have you seen anybody running low sulfur diesel on JETCAT?
Abraçăo

erbroens

Some people has been using it without issues for a while Celso... don´t have a lot of data about this.

David Gladwin

JetCat now approve the use of premium diesel in their engines. They specifically recommend BP Ultimate or Shell V Power.

David G.

leider

My Feedback: (2)

Celso you can have a look at this thread

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...-ultimate.html

Also, as Enrique, I used Kero from the gas station and JP1 and find no difference.

Daniel

Justflying1

I honestly can't understand why you would want to use diesel in your turbine.
Now before some of you load your guns let me try and explain my thinking.
First of all we all try to put the best of the best in our jets.
Second of all if diesel was good why don't full size aviation use it. JetA-1 is not much more expensive than diesel and at least for me it's not hard to get. Have some of you got a specific reason why you are using diesel. I mean if you can't get Jet-A1 I can understand the madness behind it.

David Gladwin

There's absolutely no madness at all. Simply, its easier to obtain for many people and JetCat have found no problems with using it after extensive testing and the warranty is unaffected. They did discover some slight smoking on startup and shutdown but other wise there were no performance problems. As diesel may contain more sediment than kerosene, overhaul times MAY be reduced but careful filtration should avoid that issue.

Full size jets can't use diesel (although they would run perfectly well at normal temperatures on it with minor adjustments to the fuel control system) because diesel fuel is not compatible with jet aircraft operating temperatures where OAT at cruise levels is typically -56c. Automotive diesel cannot meet other requirements of aviation such as volatility, and flash point. Here in Europe, and other parts of the world with low temps., its not uncommon for diesel trucks to come to a halt in very cold weather because the diesel has frozen.

If you really want to know about fuel freezing and waxing problems read the report into the BA 777 (google it ) which crashed at LHR some years ago (the engines would not spool up due to fuel flow restriction) due to wax and ice crystal blockage of the fuel filters after a 12 hour cruise at temps. as low as -70. They are not going to affect our engines but JetCat now fully approve these diesel fuels so there is clearly no problem at all !

............and jet A1 stinks even more than diesel !

David G.

Justflying1

Perfect explanation David. I guess logic should have been the chosen word instead of madness.
I personally still like using Jet-A1 but that's just my preference.

celso

Hello

My big concern regarding diesel use is that is much easier to get diesel at gas station pump than go to an airport to get JET A1 here in Brazil. Also the price for JET A1 is almost 2x diesel. Also i feel that is going to be harder and harder to buy JET A1 at local airports here.

Regards

celso

Hello David
Thanks for information.
My P70 and P80 SE are gas start. Do i have to make any changes to ECU? Also our premium diesel ( low sulfur content )here is called S10 ( 10 P.P.M )
Do you think is ok running this? Any special recomendation regarding filtration?

Regards
Celso

David Gladwin

Once these engines are running they are all the same, kero or gas start. I would think that starting is easier with gas as the gas flame is hotter than the kero burner.
JetCat have made no suggestions as to ECU changes.

I have no recent experience of Brazilian diesel, (I was last in Manaus 10 years ago ) but my guess is low sulphur diesel should be fine, give it a try !

I am paranoid about fuel filtration and my final filters are spotless:

I fill my main "bowser" using a "Mr Funnel" funnel to remove water (it doesn't remove all water if there is a lot present but did a good job on tests) and sediment .
From bowser pump ( I use a Kavan) to aircraft a Festo Filter is followed by a JetCat fine mesh filter. I also have a filter in the aircraft fill line before the tanks, after that nothing. I currently operate 12 engines, including a 12 year old P70 with 300 flights on it and zero flameouts, and have no problems with any using these procedures.

David.

celso

OK, Thanks David
I will give a try. Also i think that with gas start may be easier than kero burner. When running should be any differences in max temperature ? Will power be the same?

Regards

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

You are misinformed:

1) Why don't they use it in full scale? They Do! Google ULSD in avaition, in fact EPA has even cleared it for use in homes as an alternative to kerosene for many places like Alaska/NY
2) You keep saying we want the best for our engines, ULSD is cleaner (15 ppm vs 40 ppm got K1 and 113 PPm for JET-A) plus many engines output 1-2% more power on Diesel so why isn't this considered the best?
3) ULSD is clean, good power, and readily available at the local gas station. "The madness" is not using it.

bri6672

My Feedback: (6)

Some people complain about the smoke but it can actually be a good thing! You only really notice it on shut down (it's extremely minimal on start up). If your flying at an event with other turbines in the air it can be hard to hear yours, the smoke is a great visual warning if your were to ever have a flame out!

the biggest issue with Diesel is that out Turbine community is very international and different countries have different qualities of Diesel. This makes it hard for the manufactures to approve it since they can't be sure of what's actually running thru the engine. In some countries I have heard diesel is quite dirty!

celso

After all said, i think that main concern with ULSD should be a good filtration prior to use in our jets. Sulphur percentage will not be major factor for more coking.

Stevojet

My Feedback: (1)

I recently put a new Jetcat P90 into service and could not get it to run on diesel at all. Switched to Kero and it has fired every time. Do not know why but now I run Kero in both my jets. We can buy kero here in southern california in 55 gallon drums. Just my .02

Steve

Justflying1

For starters I don't believe much google comes up with.
Yes it does give 1-2% percent power but at what cost to the engine?
I find it hard to believe Diesel is cleaner than Jet A1.
I have seen inside a handful of Diesel engines and don't like the crap I see.
Like stated I can see the need for some people in using Diesel if they can't get Jet A1 but to be using a Diesel just to save a few dollars, you have to wonder at what cost to the engine in the long run.
I have been to airports to most states of Australia and a few overseas and have never seen an Airliner being filled with Diesel at this current time.
YES I can be completely wrong and my mind will change after I see a reliable source of photos of the inside of a turbine with 50 hours continuous use of diesel.
Basically what I'm saying and I'm sure there are some of you thinking the same thing is I need a little more convincing before I go running Diesel in my Turbine.

LarsL

As David Gladwin accurately pointed out, Diesel fuel as we know it is not used in aircraft that are seeing the kind of low temperature extremes that are present at high altitudes. I work for a U.S. Heavy/Medium duty truck manufacturere headquartered in Illinois and most certainly low temperatures just down into the -20F range (like we experienced this past winter) start to gel the diesel fuel. The work around is an additive and while I don't know the exact specifications, there are limits. The diesel anti-gel additive aint working down at -56C.

Now at "normal" temperatures I expect that as has been pointed out it will work fine. In a past life I was an infantry officer and had plenty of combined arms experience with the armored guys. They were very proud of their M1 Abrahms tanks with their turbine powerplants. They fueld up at the same fuel tankers using the same diesel fuel as we did with our M113's and they put lots of hard harsh miles on them. While the army is actually very good with its PMCS service programs, remember this is the army and so these M1 powerplants are not babied and cleaned every 50 hours or some such low number. So, Justflying1, while it fine for you to remain skeptical and by all means continue to run what you have been and are comfortable with, running diesel in these engines is not a "pushing the envelope" option.

Without getting too terriby technical, Justflying 1, when you are looking in a diesel truck/train/generator engine and seeing "crap", you are seeing soot that is a byproduct of the combustion process. With current regulations, the manufacturers play a fine game with soot levels, NOx, and more recently greenhouse gas levels to achieve certification. With today's technology, diesels are quite clean in all of these areas, but older engines like you perhaps have seen were different. To achieve certification NOx levels, they had to "tune" the engine in a manner that produced more soot. While it looked bad, its limit wasn't as high up the list as NOx. In our green world of today its not acceptable to see and have that black stuff coming out. With aftertreatment systems as part of the engines, all of this stuff is just better and cleaner.

Lastly, the combustion process of a reciprocating diesel engine is as you are aware different than the combustion process in a turbine engine. Even those tanks of 25 years ago with their turbine powerplants ran pretty clean in terms of soot, certainly cleaner than the crap our M113's were putting out.

Lars