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Airbus engine explodes during takeoff roll...

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Old 04-28-2014, 02:14 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconWings View Post
i want to emphasize that yes it happened before V1, but had it been after Vr you just get airborne. There's no decision.......just hope your Fuel, Payload and CG calculations were correct so the V's are accurate.
Why do you need to emphasise that, it's pretty bleeding obvious !! Take offs are NOT rejected after V1, that's the whole point of the decision speed concept and the associated performance calculations. ( that's why the PF keeps his hand on thrust levers until V1 and removes them AT. V1)
What you mean is that if it happens after v1 you continue the take off but AT V1 there is a last chance to make the decision to stop or go and unlike Cactus Flier's drill most airlines reject a take off by going to maximum Braking and FULL reverse until one is absolutely certain of stoping on the remaining runway length. (Does RTO on the ,bus really decelerate at a given rate, I, m told that like Boeings it just gives MAX braking.)

Whatever the cause of this engine failure, it looks like a correctly handled RTO, something any and every pilot should handle with ease, god knows we practiced it enough in the sim. and that captain would have rehearsed it just a minute or so earlier in his "touch drill".

David G.
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:18 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconWings View Post
Hey Airbus guys, is the T/R actuation hooked up to the primary hydraulic system or is it self contained to the engine?
Falconwings, they do indeed have their own system, to control the doors on the Trents anyway.

Eng 1 = Blue System
Eng 2 = Yellow System
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gladwin View Post
Why do you need to emphasise that, it's pretty bleeding obvious !!
Because we won the war and I can?
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:39 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mort78 View Post
Falconwings, they do indeed have their own system, to control the doors on the Trents anyway.

Eng 1 = Blue System
Eng 2 = Yellow System
Cool thanks. Looks like it had enough accumulator left to open them after engine fail.
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:00 AM
  #30
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Hi,
And again, I have to put things correctly here concerning the hydraulics.
The planes do NOT have a "Primary" hydraulic System so to say - All Airbuses have 3 hydraulic Systems (green,blue and yellow labeled)
The reversers are driven by the blue ( Eng1)and the yellow (ENG2)System respectively - the reversers have no self contained hydraulic supply ! (residual pressure will be good enough to deploy a reverser even if that hydraulic engine driven pump
Fails due to a possible eng failure on T/O roll !

Normally, T/O`s are calculated WITHOUT the reverser credit ( you have to add that credit actively in the Performance tool )
reversers are of greatest use on contaminated runways where you have low friction coefficients( say reduced wheel braking force )

see you
Hans
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Old 04-29-2014, 12:55 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bevar View Post
Allow me to simplify as they would say in NASCAR: It done blowd up!

What they did was pretty much a non event. An engine shells at 105 knots and you abort. You chop the throttles, RTO kicks in automatically and then depending on the operator either go straight into reverse, which automatically deploys the ground spoilers for you...or bang the throttles closed, manually deploy the ground spoilers and then reverse the engines. Now keep in mind I'm speaking Boeing so the Bus might act a little different. Either way a 105 knot abort is no big deal...just another day at the funny farm.

Beave
Beave,

Simplified NASCAR is " It done blowed up " for sure.... Over here in Texas, simplified White Trash, we call it " She thundered in the pan " End result is the same of course !! And I don't care if it has automatic yaw compensation computer controlled electric toilet paper dispenser, fart detector or what... I'm gonna be mashing the hell out of that left rudder pedal !!!


Danno

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Old 04-29-2014, 12:59 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticketec View Post
Close, ADIRU's air data inertial reference units. there are 3 of them onboard.

It was the flight management computers that fed the rudder in that quick. It's designed so that if there is an engine out senario the pilots to not have to correct for the lost engine, but rather manage the situation.


Thanks

dave
That's exactly what I was thinking when watching this video. From my understanding, most modern planes are designed with flight assist computer systems as you mentioned. Scariest experience I've had in a jet was landing in Narita some years ago around 3 in the afternoon. I was looking at the monitor and saw we were less than 2,000 feet of alt during the final approach and moving through a thick cloud. It was pouring rain and windy and the plane was rolling all over the place. I just kept watching the alt drop more and more but couldn't see the ground past the clouds but I knew the ground was coming soon. Looking out at the wing I could see a half dozen or so spoilers located on the top of the wing at the trailing edge and on top going crazy up and down individually at different speeds and pitches to counter the rolls. I was thinking there's no way the pilot is controlling all those at the same time along with the rudder, ailerons, elevator, throttle. It's all got to be computer assist. Would this be a fair statement?

In the video on this thread, my initial opinion is that the computer got involved when there was a deviation from what the pilot wanted and what the plane was actually doing. So the computer system stepped in and made the appropriate adjustment to the control surface to stay in line with what the pilot was doing at the controls. In this case the rudder was adjusted by the computer. Pretty cool stuff, just as long as that computer system doesn't go down at the wrong time. I think (from what I understand) the Asiana flight at SFO that crash landed a year or so ago was due in part because a ground system that communicates with the system in the plane was not in operation at the time of the incident occurred, and the pilots had no real experience landing at SFO without the system in operation. Had the system been in operation, the ground system would have communicated with the plane and either the pilots would have corrected their approach or the plane would have done it automatically via the flight assist system. You guys would know more about this than I would. Is this what happened in that situation or not?

That's also what's so interesting about military aircraft these days. They have so many control surfaces that are moving further and further away from the traditional controls (flaps, ailerons, rudder, elevator, throttle) . Most of these planes couldn't even be flown by just a pilot without the computer systems.

Cool stuff I think.

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Old 04-29-2014, 01:02 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreddi View Post
No it doesnt. A shed blade is a catastrophic failure and would constitute a design change to prevent future occurrences.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I've flown over a hundred times across the Pacific (long long flights) and that's never happened during any of them.
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Old 04-29-2014, 01:12 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofer View Post
Hi,
And again, I have to put things correctly here concerning the hydraulics.
The planes do NOT have a "Primary" hydraulic System so to say - All Airbuses have 3 hydraulic Systems (green,blue and yellow labeled)
The reversers are driven by the blue ( Eng1)and the yellow (ENG2)System respectively - the reversers have no self contained hydraulic supply ! (residual pressure will be good enough to deploy a reverser even if that hydraulic engine driven pump
Fails due to a possible eng failure on T/O roll !

Normally, T/O`s are calculated WITHOUT the reverser credit ( you have to add that credit actively in the Performance tool )
reversers are of greatest use on contaminated runways where you have low friction coefficients( say reduced wheel braking force )

see you
Hans
If they are the way you describe, then they are not self contained.....meaning having its own pressure source from the engine by means of servo pressure or even fuel motive flow. If the T/Rs are connected to the Primary (or SYS 1, depending what you drive), then I would expect them to be connected to at least another system for redundancy, wouldnt make any sense not to do that but who knows.

So is the Yellow (SYS 3) system APU or Electric driven?
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Old 04-30-2014, 03:39 AM
  #35
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Not all A330 engine options have their Thrust reverser's operated by hyd's.

The CF6 engine uses pnumatic power to deply the T/R's with no backup system. i.e. it if fails, they are stowed and locked out. the B767 T/R's are exactly the same.


I have attached a quick copy from some of our training notes.

The first one is for Falconwings, all other flight controls have redundant hyd power to operate them. for example the flaps are powered by the green and yellow hyd systems. ailerons have 2 servos actuators per surface, one powered by one hyd system, the other is "bypassing" the hyd fluid in normal ops, (depending on which FCPC is in command of the surface at the time) but is powered by a different hyd system. i.e. the L/H outboard aileron has a yellow actuator and a green actuator. the T/R's are one of the very few systems onboard that do not have a redundancy regardless of RR, PW or CF6 powered versions. From what hofer has explained they seem to not bank on them working anyway.

If the hyd pressure drops below 1750psi on any of the Hyd systems, their respective electric backup pump will start up automatically and restore the system to 3000psi. it pretty fast, buildup, I'd say under 1.5 sec, but the deployment of the T/R alone would not drain that much pressure.


Hofer/Mort.

Re: yaw compenastion.

Seems like we are taught differently then, I am a qualified B1 LAME on the A330 and CF6-80E engines. and have been building and maintaining A330's for at least 6 years now.

I can probe deeper for roll and pitch, but when in normal law, the FCPC's and FMGEC's with inputs from the ADIRU's command rudder movements to dampen out unwanted yawing of the aircraft, in this case dutch roll, and turbulence dampening, so there is compensation of some kind, and the notes below show. as to when that begins to work i don't recall/know. I do remember something like 80-100kts the aircraft sytems recognize that as the start of a new flight, and inhibit some maintenance systems .

In the roll axis, there is no trim that the pilot can input. The FCPC's send commands to the aileron servo actuators after reciving data from the ADIRU's to ensure that the aircraft flies level. for that matter, when we change an aileron servo actuator, we rig it to the other servo actuator on the same surface, but we do not "null" or "0" rig the aileron to any position in relation to the wing. the ADIRU data will allow the FCPC's to compensate for the flight control's position so the aircraft flies level. a rig check of the flight controls does happen, but the intervals are quite significant, something in the order of approx every 5-7 years.

It is this automatic compensation that allowed the A380 that lost it's wingtip and just over 2m of its outboard wing at the paris airshow to be flown back home to Toulouse for repairs with nothing more than the damage cleared of the outboard aileron, the structure filled with foam blocks and the whole lot high speed taped over. I saw an Airbus slide pack that was prepared of the incident and the pilots reported that they noted no difference at all to the way the aircraft flew. The FCPC's again with data from the ADIRU's compensated to make sure the aircraft flew straight and level.

Thanks

dave
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Last edited by ticketec; 04-30-2014 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:13 AM
  #36
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Hi Dave,
I agree with everything you have posted above, except we are talking about 2 different things here.
The previous comment you made was in relation to automatic rudder input, in the event of an engine failure on takeoff. We DON'T have that feature on the A330.

We, as you mention above do have rudder dampening, but that is to cater for Atmosphere turbulence.
It's only active under the following conditions:

1. Aircraft is in flight
2. Aircraft speed is greater than 200kts
3. AP Engaged and normal law is active
4. A/C is within the normal flight envelope.

I'm sure that beast of a machine (A380) has it though. I love those photo's you posted above of the wingtip in the building. I do however, feel sorry for the pilots.
I'm sure they had tea and biccies with the boss the following day!!!!
Have a great evening
Mort
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:50 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mort78 View Post
Hi Dave,
I agree with everything you have posted above, except we are talking about 2 different things here.
The previous comment you made was in relation to automatic rudder input, in the event of an engine failure on takeoff. We DON'T have that feature on the A330.

We, as you mention above do have rudder dampening, but that is to cater for Atmosphere turbulence.
It's only active under the following conditions:

1. Aircraft is in flight
2. Aircraft speed is greater than 200kts
3. AP Engaged and normal law is active
4. A/C is within the normal flight envelope.

I'm sure that beast of a machine (A380) has it though. I love those photo's you posted above of the wingtip in the building. I do however, feel sorry for the pilots.
I'm sure they had tea and biccies with the boss the following day!!!!
Have a great evening
Mort
fair enough but i was also responding to your comments that there were no compensations at all. I was sure we were told that the aircraft would compensate for an engine out senario. try it out next time your in the sim?

Re: rudder dampening in normal flight modes, my understanding was that the load alleviation system (damn it, cant remember the acronym, I'm delving way to far into your neck of the woods) and the yaw/turbulence dampening was always working regardless of the AP being engaged or not because they are one of the normal law envelope protections?. in the text there it states if you have a ADIRU failure there is a backup dutch roll dampening system so that there is still some rudder compensation and the aircraft would have to be in alternate or direct law without ADIRU's. Turn coordination would also have to cover AP disengaged modes of flt as well? either way, I only remember these things because I found them interesting, not because we need to know it to do our jobs.

Hyd pressures and T/R actuation, different story

I really feel for those A380 pilots.... for sure their flight suits would have felt pretty warm after that incident. but then again, maybe it the tower was at fault for sending them down that taxiway?? don't know. I can't imagine it being super detrimental to them though being test pilots and all.

One of the last KC-30A tankers we converted had Airbus military test pilots fly it back to Europe for the final paintwork to be completed. When I got talking to one of the pilots. he had punched out of a Eurofighter twice! the last one was the one were a Saudi officer was killed in the crash and a whole heap of please explains started happening. He still had a job.

Thanks

dave

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Old 04-30-2014, 04:59 AM
  #38
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Dave, what is a wingtip brake? Is that when the ailerons act like spoilers?
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:06 AM
  #39
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Nah, It's so the aircraft can do tight turns around it's wing tip
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:07 AM
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BTW, thanks for sharing the schematic Dave. Very informative.
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:13 AM
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Sorry, now I was being a smart arse.

WTB= wing tip brakes.

Is a system where if there is any variance or asymmetry between any of the flaps or slats on either side of the aircraft or even on the same side, due to any reason, the WTB engage and stop it from travelling anymore and getting too far out of asymmetry. these brakes live on the outboard most slat and flaps, and the flight computers compare what they are seeing to what the flap and slat drive motors are doing and stop everything if it's gone pear shaped.

If they engauge, you need all three hyd systems powered up to disengage them. They can be a pain, especially when we lay up a jet for more than a week because once a week, they self test, and if they test has not come back ok, then they bring up an error message. because we de-power the aircraft, you lose the clock. it checks itself against the GPS clock, but when you are in a hangar you do not get a GPS signal, so the aircraft can get confused about how long it's been since the last auto test and lock out the flaps and slats until the test has been carried out.

Thanks

dave

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Old 04-30-2014, 05:14 AM
  #42
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P.S. these threads and the ones were the likes of falconwings who flew F-16's? start talking about operating the aircraft are some of the most enjoyable for me on RCU these days!
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:14 AM
  #43
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Thats what you get with an airplane smarter than the crew!
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconWings View Post
Thats what you get with an airplane smarter than the crew!

The Crew, the Engineers.... everyone.

In maintenance it's classed as a dangerous aircraft to work on because if you do not disable a system correctly, the aircraft thought it's multitude paths of redundancy will find a way to power up that system. That has an inherent risk of hurting you, or the guy working next to you...

You HAVE to follow the manual to disable systems correctly before carrying out any work. when I worked on B767, if you pull the CB's for that systems that it! dead as a dodo. The Airbus is designed to try and keep flying regardless of what fails.

Thanks

dave

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Old 04-30-2014, 06:04 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticketec View Post
The Crew, the Engineers.... everyone.

In maintenance it's classed as a dangerous aircraft to work on because if you do not disable a system correctly, the aircraft thought it's multitude paths of redundancy will find a way to power up that system. That has an inherent risk of hurting you, or the guy working next to you...

You HAVE to follow the manual to disable systems correctly before carrying out any work. when I worked on B767, if you pull the CB's for that systems that it! dead as a dodo. The Airbus is designed to try and keep flying regardless of what fails.

Thanks

dave

LOL, I can only imagine this:

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Old 04-30-2014, 06:29 AM
  #46
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Definitely NO rudder compensation on the ground if an engine fails in the 320 and I am told the 330 is the same (source: my son -in law an Airbus320 training captain with BA.)

There is no rudder compensation in that scenario, on any Boeing I have flown, (although the tripler DOES have it and maybe the 87) either, BUT the rudder channel IS engaged and can cope with an engine failure when all 3 A/Ps are connected for autoland. No doubt the 'bus is the same, but on the ground it's manual rudder input.

DG.

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Old 04-30-2014, 09:57 AM
  #47
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Hal: "I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that." LOL

Some of the GA stuff I fly, like the King Air 300-350, have rudder boost/yaw compensation/asymmetry systems that are no-go items if inop. The reason being they are not boosted controls and, in the event of an engine failure at takeoff, one would need (in the King Air case) over 180 lbs. of pressure on the rudder for a prolonged period which exceeds certification limits. The King Air uses bleed air that is controlled by the autopilot computer, simple and effective.

I agree, I learn a lot with these detailed discussions.
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Old 04-30-2014, 11:16 AM
  #48
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Falconwings flying F16s, maybe ???

If you guys really want to know what happened to the Thomas Cook A 330 just google, Manchester Thomas Cook A330 and you will get the AAIB report.The truth the whole truth and nothing but from world class professionals.

David G.

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Old 04-30-2014, 12:15 PM
  #49
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http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...YT%2012-13.pdf
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Old 04-30-2014, 03:24 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconWings View Post
LOL, I can only imagine this:

Great reference Falcon. One of my all time favourite SiFi plots.. Arthur C Clarke was a genius, way ahead of his time.

I can just imagine the two air bus pilots retiring to crew rest for a “private” discussion.

Rog
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