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Is it worth adding a gyro?

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Old 04-29-2014, 04:40 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzalom View Post
I have been flying with gyros for a long time. I fly 1/4 scale turbine helos with multiblades and without the assistance of gyros itís very hard to get them fly well and almost impossible with gusty conditions. All my large helos are remarkable how well they fly with the assistance of gyros. They fly like a dream and doesnít matter that much how gusty it is at the field.

On my jets, I have been flying with simple gyros just for the nose wheel with some great results! Part of last year and this year I decided to fit 3 axis gyros on all my jets. I started with my large SM Viper by fitting the Powerbox Royal SRS in which the iGyro is embedded. The Viper was always a great flyer without the gyros assistance but once I tried the iGyro it was remarkable how well the Viper did, crisp and the pure perfection of flying. I never saw my Viper tracking so well in all maneuvers. Then I decided to put the same PB Royal SRS on my SM A10 which is about 77lbs wet. OMG I never seen flying so well, a pure joy every second of flying. Then I decided to fit on my BVM Bobcat Composite a BD CortexÖ. out of this world a pure joy to fly. Currently, I am in the process to try the ET Guardian on my BVM Electra as I flew my friendís Electra with the Guardian and I was so impress with the Guardian too.

Why I have 3 axis gyros on my jets itís because it make them fly so well with perfect tracking on all maneuvers and I simply love it. Itís so much enjoyable to fly something that flies like a dream and you are not fighting others aspects such weather or aerodynamics. You need to understand how they work and how to setup them right and you will never fly without them. And yes I can turn off all gyros anytime I want by flipping a switching.

I will fly test the Guardian next weekend!

Regards,

Gonzalo
Gonzalo:

Thanks for sharing your experience. I also using the iGyro in most of my planes and I'm really liking it. This weekend I need to program the one I just installed in my Skymaster A-10.

Any differences between the iGyro and the Cortex in terms of performance ? I have two older planes that could benefit of a gyro but I can't install the IGyro so that's why I'm thinking on the Cortex. Also interested on your review of the Guardian after you try it.
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:49 AM
  #52
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My Segway PT don't use any gyros
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:02 AM
  #53
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How would one use a 3 axis gyro, if one of the uses is for nose wheel? Eliminate the rudder? Seems like a compromise. Get a separate single axis for the nose wheel? Seems like an added expense
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:22 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrYankum View Post
How would one use a 3 axis gyro, if one of the uses is for nose wheel? Eliminate the rudder? Seems like a compromise. Get a separate single axis for the nose wheel? Seems like an added expense

The Cortex has 5 Input/Outputs so you can stabilize the steering independent of the rudder ie: two separate channels
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:24 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_B View Post
The Cortex has 5 Input/Outputs so you can stabilize the steering independent of the rudder ie: two separate channels
Bob_B is correct! that's the way I have it on my Bobcat and is the same case for the PB Royal SRS!

Gonzalo
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:34 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzalo38 View Post
Gonzalo:

Thanks for sharing your experience. I also using the iGyro in most of my planes and I'm really liking it. This weekend I need to program the one I just installed in my Skymaster A-10.

Any differences between the iGyro and the Cortex in terms of performance ? I have two older planes that could benefit of a gyro but I can't install the IGyro so that's why I'm thinking on the Cortex. Also interested on your review of the Guardian after you try it.
Gonzalo, the Cortex works very very well and simple to setup. If I don't need some serious power distribution on my jets the Cortex is a very good choice! I setup my jets with flight mode on the flap switch and the Cortex setup to be at 30% gain at flying mode, 40% gain on take off with one point flap and 70% gain for landing 2 point flap. I do fly using rate mode only an not HH. Those numbers are perfect to start and you can adjust later to what you like. the PBS Royal SRS does the gain automatically due to the GPS onboard. By the way I just upgrade my PB Royals SRS to use the new PB GPS 2. Give me a call if you have any questions.

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Old 04-29-2014, 12:01 PM
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The first rule a pilot learns in flight school is "Fly the airplane"

learn to fly the airplane. So NO you don't need a gyro. You need to learn your craft and not let a gyro do the work for you.
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Old 04-29-2014, 12:14 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_B View Post
The Cortex has 5 Input/Outputs so you can stabilize the steering independent of the rudder ie: two separate channels
But then you would be sacrificing either an extra elevator or aileron function (i.e. one of them would require a Y harness, assuming that you have two elevator servos)

Hey Bob, do you have both the I Gyro and the Cortex?

Can you provide any sort of performance comparison?

I know that the I Gyro has a GPS feature for adjusting the gain based on flight speed, how does the Cortex handle this? Is transmitter mixing the only option?
I guess I will need your help again with the 12FG

Last edited by RCISFUN; 04-29-2014 at 12:17 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-29-2014, 12:47 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatairplaneguy View Post
The first rule a pilot learns in flight school is "Fly the airplane"

learn to fly the airplane. So NO you don't need a gyro. You need to learn your craft and not let a gyro do the work for you.
I'm under the impression that a gyro only takes an inherently unstable aircraft & makes it stable. For example, F-15's seem to have lots of wing area & tends to porpoise a lot, add a 3 axis gyro & it will transform it to fly on rails like a great sport jet.
Aren't your inputs still your inputs? I don't think its an auto-pilot, but have not tried one yet.
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Old 04-29-2014, 12:50 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatairplaneguy View Post
The first rule a pilot learns in flight school is "Fly the airplane"

learn to fly the airplane. So NO you don't need a gyro. You need to learn your craft and not let a gyro do the work for you.
Same attitude that permeated the heli ranks. Back in the 70's

Now you will find about as many hens teeth as you will heli's without a gyro. The ratio of 3 axis FBL units is increasing every day as well.

The gyro (especially the Cortex) isn't flying the model, its keeping it stable, independent of wind gusts and such, while you fly it.
As for gear wear, I see more wear in gasser gear sets (w/o gyros) than any of my helicopter stuff w/ a gyro.

@willig the Top Flight P-47 flies so well I wouldn't waste money for a gyro, I just this week did a maiden on one for a club member.
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Old 04-29-2014, 01:03 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatairplaneguy View Post
The first rule a pilot learns in flight school is "Fly the airplane"

learn to fly the airplane. So NO you don't need a gyro. You need to learn your craft and not let a gyro do the work for you.
What a load on nonsense, clearly you need to educate yourself on what gyros do and are for, I have and have had many planes that most people won't buy because of their poor flight characteristics and been successful with them without gyros, nobody here fits a gyro because they have to everyone does it because they want to, and if we like it or not most of the time the maiden is a little more challenging with a gyro fitted.
when you post a video of these amazing gyro-less skills that you have flying difficult jets without ever having an issue then maybe I will believe your hype
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Old 04-29-2014, 03:02 PM
  #62
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The only thing "wrong" with using gyros (leaving ego's aside) is they can mask poor airplane setup and you lose some feel for the air a bit like using cruise control in wet and slippery conditions, but apart from that if your plane flys better, you're more confident flying it and it makes it safer then I say go ahead.

The old adage about landings saying it's better to walk 200 yards to pick up your plane in one piece rather than 20 feet to pick up a pile of bits applies here as well, unless you're landing it into a crowd 200 yards away?.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:10 PM
  #63
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There is some interesting stuff in this thread. My thought is that most modern full scale jets are designed with computer stabilization in mind. I am pretty much 100% opposed to a gyro in almost any model airplane, except for jets and particularly ones where the full scale versions fly using some type of fly-by-wire. I fly in precision aerobatics contests so I am all-for full pilot control of an aircraft. But if an aircraft is designed with known inherent instability traits it seems crazy to me to hold it against anyone for trying a gyro.

I don't fly a jet yet but believe that venture will start in the not-so-distant future. I have started thinking about a scratch built airliner with twin 120mm fans and might grab a 'little' edf jet plane in the mean time. I am sure I'd try flying it (the big one) without a gyro but I do plan on having one basically from the beginning.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:28 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art ARRO View Post
All,
For a good viewpoint on gyros visit: www.franktiano.com and open the link to Top Gun. Then scroll on the left sidebar to GYRO UPDATE.

Rgds,
Art ARRO
The letter is worth reading!

Well put!

Thanks for posting the link-



Joe
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:39 PM
  #65
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[QUOTE=Jetdesign;11793756]There is some interesting stuff in this thread. My thought is that most modern full scale jets are designed with computer stabilization in mind. I am pretty much 100% opposed to a gyro in almost any model airplane, except for jets and particularly ones where the full scale versions fly using some type of fly-by-wire. I fly in precision aerobatics contests so I am all-for full pilot control of an aircraft. But if an aircraft is designed with known inherent instability traits it seems crazy to me to hold it against anyone for trying a gyro.

In flying IMAC or precision aerobatics, do you not consider the down elevator you have programmed into idle at down lines, or rudder and aileron mixes for knife edge to be full pilot control.
For that matter ...are expo and dual rates full pilot control?
I am dating myself, but when I started flying there was no servo reversing, expo or dual rates. I fly IMAC as well as turbine jets now, and I agree that gyros in precision aerobatics should not be allowed,but it is disingenuous to say that you are flying with direct pilot control. Gyros have a use in model airplanes, whether the full size used some sort of stabilization or not
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:56 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikes68charger View Post
Hey guys I just wanted to see what the general thoughts are about adding a gyro to our jets

There are 5 of use flying falcon 120/ Navy Cats at our field and one guy just started useing this gyro below

Bl_3grc gyroBL-3GRC Gyro/Contoller Amazing new product


We typically have gusty and cross winds. But when he turns this thing on he can land way smoother and slower than the rest of usEven in the air he dose not have the delta wobbling even when 3 of us fly by together you can see his is way smotherWhile this $80 gyro works great for him it doesn't look like a jet gyro in ny mindSo if you like them which are you using?*

Is it simple?*Thanks Mike
The answer is yes. I have the ice man gyro on my Pitts Python (obviously not a jet). I put it on about two months ago. I have been flying freestyle for 8 years. You can't understand the difference until you actually fly with one. Would it be cheating in a contest, sure. That alone should tell you you should get one.
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:32 AM
  #67
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Like I said before, eliminate all this stuff and save thousands of dollars by simply modifying your jet into a control line jet. Then your only worry is getting dizzy. But there is a solution for that too ... Dramamine.


In a competition there are many variables that attribute to flight scores. One of the most obvious, and probably the biggest variable is the wind condition at different times of the day. On average, the guy that flys in the morning has an edge over the guy flying in the afternoon when the winds are stronger and probably more gusty.

The use of a gyro definitely provides an edge in competition. It also saves your plane or jet from costly damage during a take-off or landing in heavy cross-wind conditions when things go bad. So, the $75 (for the Guardian) to $340 (for the iGyro or Cortex) is well worth the risk to me. Also, not flying in heavy crosswind conditions is another option (which is what I choose).

We start off with an expensive airframe & turbine that costs $6,000 to $12,000+. Our logic is to protect that investment with quality components. So, why get a $50 component when a $250 exists that we think is more reliable? Answer ... we are protecting our already very expensive jet. So why risk all that to a cheap component! As we keep adding to our jet, we apply this principle over and over to everything we buy for the jet. I see nothing wrong with that because it makes sense, and that is exactly what I do.

We all have seen a jet or plane "balloon" a landing, then veer off to one side of the runway (and usually into the pits). A gyro would prevent this.

Gyros are a good thing … even though I don’t currently use them.

Eventually we are going to see flight programming built into our systems. With the use of GPS, telemetry, gyros, and computer programming, we will be able to input data into a sim card that will encompass the entire flight of an R/C plane or jet. We will also be able to record a flight, be able to modify it, then have the plane/jet fly that pattern too. The technology already exists, it just isn’t available for public use … Yet.

Last edited by Airplanes400; 04-30-2014 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:37 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airplanes400 View Post

[snip]

Eventually we are going to see flight programming built into our systems. With the use of GPS, telemetry, gyros, and computer programming, we will be able to input data into a sim card that will encompass the entire flight of an R/C plane or jet. We will also be able to record a flight, be able to modify it, then have the plane/jet fly that pattern too. The technology already exists, it just isn’t available for public use … Yet.
There are already systems developed by universities that can record a 3D flight of a helicopter and "play it back." Open source autopilots are available for many different platforms including fixed-wing, helis, and multi-rotors. Combining the two is simply a task for the willing, and able - nothing secretive or overly complex about it.

The two main questions are:

1) why would you do it (i.e., who would buy it)?

2) how reliable is it?

The first question is probably the harder question to answer - what's the market and who's going to pay back the NRE cost that it would take to write and test the code. Even if somebody did it for fun, it would be such a time consuming project that very few people would do just for the heck of it...

The second question is actually related to the first. In order for it to be reliable, it has to be designed with that in mind from the start, *and* it needs to be thoroughly flight tested, both of which have associated *costs* (in time and/or money). If nobody is going to buy it, why bother.

We build UAV autopilots in our lab as part of our research, so I know what kind of effort goes into doing that and what it would take to make one reliable enough for me to put in my jets. For me, no commercially available system other than a single axis gyro on nose wheel steering/rudder meets that criteria - neither do the systems we build, by the way. I'm overly cautious in that regard, I admit, but I do have some experience upon which to base that opinion.

Besides, I get a kick out of executing a successful jet flight on the "bare metal" without the "assistance" of the automation that I work with every day. YMMV...

Bob
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:25 AM
  #69
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Rich I'm always available to help you with the 12FG. NO, I do not have both systems only the Cortex so I can not provide a comparison.
The Cortex is physically smaller and was designed to be easier to set-up. I have never seen the need for speed gain via a GPS unit like the IGyro.
You've seen the HH guys fly with three of the JR 370 gyro they do not use GPS gain control that I am aware of.

What do you mean by "Is transmitter mixing the only option?" Other putting the gain on a three position switch, that's it.

The reference about using one of the channel to stabilize the steering was based on the steering being separate and if you had one of the 5 I/O's free.

Once a Cortex is installed and connected to the RX and Servos. It can be programmed and ready to fly in under 5 minutes. The TX programming would take about five minutes too.

Rich when should I expect your call???
Bob



Quote:
Originally Posted by RCISFUN View Post
But then you would be sacrificing either an extra elevator or aileron function (i.e. one of them would require a Y harness, assuming that you have two elevator servos)

Hey Bob, do you have both the I Gyro and the Cortex?

Can you provide any sort of performance comparison?

I know that the I Gyro has a GPS feature for adjusting the gain based on flight speed, how does the Cortex handle this? Is transmitter mixing the only option?
I guess I will need your help again with the 12FG
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