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Is it worth adding a gyro?

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Old 04-27-2014, 04:26 PM
  #1
mikes68charger
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Hey guys I just wanted to see what the general thoughts are about adding a gyro to our jets

There are 5 of use flying falcon 120/ Navy Cats at our field and one guy just started useing this gyro below

Bl_3grc gyroBL-3GRC Gyro/Contoller Amazing new product


We typically have gusty and cross winds. But when he turns this thing on he can land way smoother and slower than the rest of usEven in the air he dose not have the delta wobbling even when 3 of us fly by together you can see his is way smotherWhile this $80 gyro works great for him it doesn't look like a jet gyro in ny mindSo if you like them which are you using?*

Is it simple?*Thanks Mike
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Old 04-27-2014, 05:30 PM
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I wont own a jet without a gyro anymore. I love the 75$ eagle tree guardian.
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Old 04-27-2014, 05:40 PM
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Totally worth it, get the cortex, great unit especially for the price
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Old 04-27-2014, 05:53 PM
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mikes68charger
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Can you guys post links of the ones you use. My fear is the gyro not handling the servo load. Ie the anos needed for the larger jet 200oz type servos

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Old 04-27-2014, 06:01 PM
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Well this was certainly an opportune post. I only had a chat regarding using flight controllers on planes two days ago. I already have 2 Quanum units but haven't had them flying as yet. I think the more up to date solid state gear would be better than infrared units so bought a couple of the HobbyKing stabilizers. I haven't fitted them as yet. I was waiting until I got a little feedback on their use. I also wanted to experiment with a tiny helicopter type gyro to see if it would be of any use.

One problem I see is using cheaper servos or even the more expensive type if the stabilizer is set rather too extremely. Overuse ofthe servo in question could well lead to premature breakdown or overheating. I watched a YouTube video where the flyer has his elevator and ailerons going mad.

You've given me a little incentive to get to work and fit them, thanks.
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Old 04-27-2014, 06:26 PM
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This is an interesting question and something tht guys have been talking about with units like the Guardian, iGyro, the Cortex, and others. One thing to consider with these units is that you are breaking the direct link between your receiver and your servos. You are now depending on the software (and hardware) in the unit to do what you want it to do, and even more so, when you hit the switch to "turn them off" in flight, you are asking them if you could please have control of your aircraft back. I have seen more than one occurrence of when the answer to that request is "no, you can't" - with predictable results.

We build UAV autopilots in my lab, and even after hundreds of flights, and many, many hours of testing, we still get occurrences of undesired behavior that we have to track down.

The technology is great, no doubt, but you have to realize that reliability is an issue. Personally, I'd only put a "proven" gyro on rudder (and nosewheel steering) and/or ailerons, but that's just me...

Oh, and I'd NEVER put any electronics by Hobbyking in the critical control path of a jet, NEVER EVER...
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Old 04-27-2014, 07:13 PM
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I have put about 175 flights on my Modelbau Tornado with no gyro and 22 flights on my Ultima-tun equipped with a Demon Cortex gyro. While the Tornado might be considered a trainer or beginner jet the Ultima is easier to fly with the gyro installed. So much so that I will probably spend another 350.00 and put one in the Tornado. I will be installing gyros in any new jets I build. Most pilots flying turbine or edf jets at our field have started using Demons and are very happy with the results.
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Old 04-27-2014, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikes68charger View Post
Can you guys post links of the ones you use. My fear is the gyro not handling the servo load. Ie the anos needed for the larger jet 200oz type servos
You can run (some of) the power directly to the servos, rather than through the gyro itself.
On my iGyro, for two JR8911 elevator servos I separated out the power from the signal, having the power supplied directly from a JR1222 PowerSafe receiver output, where the signal is coming from the iGyro itself. This prevents the iGyro from possibly being overloaded.

Last edited by Gra55h0pper; 04-27-2014 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 04-27-2014, 09:11 PM
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I expect that most gyros have a common power bus across the board so handling the load should not be a problem, I think that servo's current draw is so low you'd struggle to fry the gyro with it unless maybe you have a giant jet with multiple servos per surface.

As I understand it from demon in this scenario you could potentially use more than one gyro to handle the load.
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Old 04-27-2014, 10:36 PM
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You can definitely seperate the power busses. I think what Bob is saying is that you never turn the gyro "off" in flight. Even when you switch the gyro off the servo signals are still going through the gyro, either the hardware or a combination of the hardware and the software depending on the way the gyro is designed.

I have used the BL-3GRC on an EDF. It works well but even the designer recommends a separate servo power bus for any decent sized model.
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Old 04-27-2014, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikes68charger View Post
Hey guys I just wanted to see what the general thoughts are about adding a gyro to our jets

There are 5 of use flying falcon 120/ Navy Cats at our field and one guy just started useing this gyro below

Bl_3grc gyroBL-3GRC Gyro/Contoller Amazing new product


We typically have gusty and cross winds. But when he turns this thing on he can land way smoother and slower than the rest of usEven in the air he dose not have the delta wobbling even when 3 of us fly by together you can see his is way smotherWhile this $80 gyro works great for him it doesn't look like a jet gyro in ny mindSo if you like them which are you using?*

Is it simple?*Thanks Mike


you have already answered your own question !
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:58 AM
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I suppose that in a perfect world they would be great. But from the comments here the problem of "asking" for control is a problem I hadn't considered. I assumed that because it was the much simpler of options permission would be easier to obtain. It would have to be a fault of some description to lock you out. Another item in line to go wrong is something to be avoided.

Perhaps I'll make sure my tests are in a plane I could stand to lose. Which one is the question. All of them have taken too much time to build to simply throw away. My end result, if successful I intended to install in my Penguin. Maybe not such a good idea. I've spent too much on it to be told by a $50.00 item to get lost. :-) That took the wind out of my sails. It looks like the Penguin's stabilizer will have to be me.

I think perhaps you're being rather harsh on HobbyKing's product though. They sell many items sold by the more sophisticated retailers. The Quanum and even the NAZAs now. I see the main stumbling block as their God Awful customer Service, or lack of it. :-)
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:59 AM
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I land in cross winds and knife edge a few feet off the runway without a gyro. Doesnt seem hard even with scale jets.
Anyone who installs a gryo be on notice, you have 0 bragging rights and have NO business criticizing anyone for anything such as flying or hard landings.

Gosh I know a few people who run the mouths then install gyros, especially cortex. Just amazes me the lack of brain cells.

If you install a gyro and are cool to others, then go for it. Why not use a crutch to help out with the basics?

Personally I will never use a gyro. When I was new I tried to use one to stop tail wag, I then removed it and just got used to the wag. Just learn to fly else you will always have to depend on this crap.

Just my .02
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:39 AM
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Obviously most of the time these types of units aren't going to be a problem, but you do have to realize that when you add one of these gyros, stabilizers, autopilots, powerboxes, etc., you're adding a single point of failure into the critical path. Personally I care not to do that on my jets, but if you do, you need to realize what you are doing and make sure you are confident in the unit (i.e., its been *thoroughly* wrung out).

On the Hobby King side, I do buy a lot of their stuff - but the failure rate of their electronics is way to high to use them in a jet - IMHO.

I do sort of agree with essyou35 - although he may have stated it a bit more harshly than I would have.

Bob
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:00 AM
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When we fly scale planes we want them to look as scale as possible. Well when I see full size fighter fly I don't see them getting thrown all around the sky by the wind like our models do. So in order to make the plane fly more scale gyros can help allot with the wind gusts.

You also just said people like Ali,Pablo,Dustin and Peter Goldsmith to name a few need a gyro as a crutch to fly........ Needless to say you have no clue what you are talking about.

Anytime you want to give me some flying lessons im all ears but it will need to wait until after TopGun is over

Also you should work on how you talk to people online. Someday you might go to an event and have to see them face to face and running your mouth like that can have adverse effects.

BTW here is really good read on Gyros and using them in our planes by Peter Goldsmith. http://www.franktiano.com/TopGunFrameset.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by essyou35 View Post
I land in cross winds and knife edge a few feet off the runway without a gyro. Doesnt seem hard even with scale jets.
Anyone who installs a gryo be on notice, you have 0 bragging rights and have NO business criticizing anyone for anything such as flying or hard landings.

Gosh I know a few people who run the mouths then install gyros, especially cortex. Just amazes me the lack of brain cells.

If you install a gyro and are cool to others, then go for it. Why not use a crutch to help out with the basics?

Personally I will never use a gyro. When I was new I tried to use one to stop tail wag, I then removed it and just got used to the wag. Just learn to fly else you will always have to depend on this crap.

Just my .02
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:49 AM
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There are a few larger scale jets that can benefit. The reason the jets get thrown around in some cases is because the wing loadings are so low. My old FEJ f-16 was heavy it would buck any wind and flew very scale. Granted after I started flying my floary viper glider my skills suffered, which is what will happen if one uses a cortex.

I'm not trying to give anyone lessons, but if someone gives me crap about how I fly, then I find out they have a gyro in some floaty jet, I am going to call them out on it.

Also, I am not running my mouth I am simply stating a fact. If you use a cortex to knife edge or land in a cross wind then I dont care, but dont say anything about my less than perfect one I did myself.

Adverse results? Like what? Going to sabotage my FEJ? Be specific here I am thinking this sounds like a threat?






Quote:
Originally Posted by gunradd View Post
When we fly scale planes we want them to look as scale as possible. Well when I see full size fighter fly I don't see them getting thrown all around the sky by the wind like our models do. So in order to make the plane fly more scale gyros can help allot with the wind gusts.

You also just said people like Ali,Pablo,Dustin and Peter Goldsmith to name a few need a gyro as a crutch to fly........ Needless to say you have no clue what you are talking about.

Anytime you want to give me some flying lessons im all ears but it will need to wait until after TopGun is over

Also you should work on how you talk to people online. Someday you might go to an event and have to see them face to face and running your mouth like that can have adverse effects.

BTW here is really good read on Gyros and using them in our planes by Peter Goldsmith. http://www.franktiano.com/TopGunFrameset.htm
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:49 AM
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Well, it certainly seems that the hobby has become somewhat different over the years. Living in a small Australian country town with no really keen RCers I guess I must have missed the transition to the type of RCer we see above. Once upon a time RCers and prior to those, simply Model Aircraft Enthusiasts, we were a friendly bunch or people willing to help others and having an open mind to new and unknown gizmos and gadgets being introduced into the trade.

If a pilot did things a little different we certainly would ostracize him or call him names. To each their own and good on them for being individuals. I don't recall anyone telling another that they're wrong for using a different method than anyone else and this also stretched to the building side of things. Should a builder wish to use a different glue to the one other's used then what did it matter? What really mattered was the fact we were all in the same hobby. Being different was welcomed because how else would we ever discover new parts and accessories. Nobody could afford to buy them all to try out. If we all bought a different make or model we told as many as possible the good and bad aspects of the item. We never abused anyone for doing things his way.

I suggest Essyou tries to accept the fact that everyone is entitled to do things the way he sees fit, not the way he sees things. As was wisely pointed out by Gunradd, you will find the hobby a lonely thing if you speak the way you've just displayed. I certainly wouldn't wish to fly with you, if you showed that attitude on the flight line or anywhere else for that matter. I'd suggest you calm down and start accepting the fact that we are all different and not the same as you, or like the things you like.. Think whatever you like but try a little self control when you speak. Nobody likes to hear they're wrong.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:50 AM
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Just to clarify my position, I do use gyros on some of my planes for the reasons that Gunradd suggests and I don't see anything wrong with that - in competition or otherwise as long as the rules allow it. It definitely makes some planes fly more scale.

On the other hand, using a Cortex 3 axis stabilization system on a Tornado or the like because it makes it "easier to fly" IS a crutch and new jet flyers would most likely benefit from spending time flying without the benefit of the gyro to get more, and better, experience.

Have fun at TopGun Gunradd!

Bob
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:58 AM
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Oh dear, this is how wars start :-) I'm sure Gunradd wasn't making any "threats" He mentioned "adverse results" I assume to mean you could well receive a swift kick in the pants or maybe a good telling off for dictating what people should and shouldn't do. I certainly never saw any threats in his post. Perhaps you are too worked up about others thinking differently to yourself. Try reading what people write, not what you read between the lines. I'm sure he was simply giving you good advice. Take it that way and there's no reason for anyone to get upset.

Sheesh, all this over a tiny box in a plane. It's not worth the grief.
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Old 04-28-2014, 06:26 AM
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This "tiny box" in a jet can turn a new or poor pilot into an expert. Fine. But if that same person boasts about it or criticizes others, which happens a lot around here, that is what I have an issue with. And that is clear from the start. If you use a gyro, take that into account when you criticize others is what I am saying.

Last edited by essyou35; 04-28-2014 at 06:33 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:19 AM
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I've been flying jets since 1998, started with ducted fan then in 2000 turbines. In all those years I have never had a gyro in a jet until a couple years back in my bobcat xl. However, the bobcat only has it because it was in there from the guy I bought it from. There were no instructions I could find for the gyro and it made my rudders do weird things on the ground so I unplugged it but never bothered to remove it and now my rudders and nose gear are just straight into the receiver. Everyone with a bobcat xl has told me "you need a gyro for when the main gear come down" yet I don't have one functioning. I have a little crow and that's it. Never had an issue in cross wind or otherwise with any of my jets. I know many people that used them on nose gear steering and that's okay, however, I do personally feel that gyros should NOT be allowed in ANY form of competition where flying is judged. I guess I'm old school where I believe in the person flying the airplane. having said that, I really don't care if somebody wants to use a gyro, but the question at hand is, is it worth adding a gyro? 16 years of flying jets without one says to me that no, it's not worth it.

Of course that is just my opinion.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:43 AM
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Just a comment: I saw a post somewhere not too long ago where the poster was berating people who use Rates and Expo. This hobby has become very expensive. Having backup in a case of dumb thumbs and putting a several grand into the ground might be nice. That's why I have considered using a Gyro.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhklenke View Post
Just to clarify my position, I do use gyros on some of my planes for the reasons that Gunradd suggests and I don't see anything wrong with that - in competition or otherwise as long as the rules allow it. It definitely makes some planes fly more scale.

On the other hand, using a Cortex 3 axis stabilization system on a Tornado or the like because it makes it "easier to fly" IS a crutch and new jet flyers would most likely benefit from spending time flying without the benefit of the gyro to get more, and better, experience.

Have fun at TopGun Gunradd!

Bob

Bob
I agree 100%. However, I am helping a "Fred" with his Electra and "Fred" has been flying for years. Now "Fred" is not afraid of crashing his models it's part of the game if you ask him.
We installed a Cortex in his jet because "Fred" is blind in one eye and in his 80"s, the Cortex gives "Fred" a lot more time to figure out what the model is doing and it gives me a sense of security when I'm helping "Fred".

Bob
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:06 PM
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A gyro on the nosewheel is a god send. Totally reduces your work load on the tarmac. And it makes for a great start of a great flight!
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Old 04-28-2014, 12:16 PM
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From my understanding, if the 3 axis gyro has an inflight failure you will loose elev, rudd, & ailerons.. There is no recovery procedure for that! For me it is worth it to fly a little less stable jet for 20 years then to have a perfectly stable-flying jet possibly fail after 100 (arbitrary number) flights or so due to a gyro. With all that being said, I LOVE the 3 axis gyro concept! We also need someone to continue testing them so they will advance & hopefully become bullet-proof one day, so THANK YOU gyro flyers, keep up the great work! They are very pleasing to watch.
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