Looking for help with static issues
05-19-2014, 06:25 PM
#26
Anytime you have two circuits isolated from each other, there is the potential for a voltage variance to exist. If the variance gets high enough, it can discharge as static/RF. That being said, that voltage has to be pretty high to do that. The two circuits also could capacitivly couple to overload one of them, if the wiring from both circuits were close enough. The answer to this type of issue is to have a common ground.Then there is no variance of voltage between the two circuits because each circuit now has a common element, the ground. However, I am hesitant to tie the Rxer and the engine circuits together without some sort of filtering/buffering.
The JetCat being sensitive to static build up sounds like it is based based on other conditions that are unique to each plane. Of course JetCat could harden the circuits to better reject stray voltage that we may build in, right up to EMP proofing them. But, that is all a matter of how may $s is justified.
One thing to think about though, static builds on metal as impure air particles hit the metal. Tying the exhaust tube to the ground may not be a good solution. Before, I did that I would fly a bit and measure the voltage delta between the ground and the tube. Maybe even put telemetry across the tube and ground to see what is really going on when in flight. Tying in the tube just seems kind of contrary to the Motorola static research papers and videos that are published. This may be one of the reasons for the air spacing typically found between the tube and the turbine's exhaust pipe.
Static control is not voodoo and smoke and mirrors. The space shuttle program ironed out a lot of this area during its years of research. The papers are out there. Motorola also has published some well defined static build up and discharge testing. Air impurities hitting conductive material builds static. If someone thinks it is voodoo, that someone just has not researched it enough to understand it.
The only problem I have with my JetCat is that it goes too darned fast!
But, ... I have a friend with apparent static issues. We'll see what he figures out. As I understand it, the turbine ran fine, until it was put into a new plane. Now it flames out. Could also be a wiring or fuel line issue. Point being, ... can't blame the engine. It was working fine until it was installed in a new plane. If you think it is your turbine acting up, try it on the bench or another plane. Seems like slowing down the fueling rate was also another good suggestion. I read about static build up from fast refueling several times before. Dreamworks also has some "opinion" on static posted on their website.
The JetCat being sensitive to static build up sounds like it is based based on other conditions that are unique to each plane. Of course JetCat could harden the circuits to better reject stray voltage that we may build in, right up to EMP proofing them. But, that is all a matter of how may $s is justified.
One thing to think about though, static builds on metal as impure air particles hit the metal. Tying the exhaust tube to the ground may not be a good solution. Before, I did that I would fly a bit and measure the voltage delta between the ground and the tube. Maybe even put telemetry across the tube and ground to see what is really going on when in flight. Tying in the tube just seems kind of contrary to the Motorola static research papers and videos that are published. This may be one of the reasons for the air spacing typically found between the tube and the turbine's exhaust pipe.
Static control is not voodoo and smoke and mirrors. The space shuttle program ironed out a lot of this area during its years of research. The papers are out there. Motorola also has published some well defined static build up and discharge testing. Air impurities hitting conductive material builds static. If someone thinks it is voodoo, that someone just has not researched it enough to understand it.
The only problem I have with my JetCat is that it goes too darned fast!
But, ... I have a friend with apparent static issues. We'll see what he figures out. As I understand it, the turbine ran fine, until it was put into a new plane. Now it flames out. Could also be a wiring or fuel line issue. Point being, ... can't blame the engine. It was working fine until it was installed in a new plane. If you think it is your turbine acting up, try it on the bench or another plane. Seems like slowing down the fueling rate was also another good suggestion. I read about static build up from fast refueling several times before. Dreamworks also has some "opinion" on static posted on their website.
05-19-2014, 06:27 PM
#28
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I recently bought a new fuel can. This one with a variable speed pump. Unaware of static issues until I read this thread, I happily filled my tanks faster than usual. We started the JetCat P-70 and backed off for a range check. The turbine shut down when the range check button was pressed. After much scratching of heads we couldn't decide on a cause. In the course of poking and prodding about we discovered an air leak and decided to fly another day so we didn't run the turbine again.
After reading this, I think it could have very well been a static discharge. Even the weather was cool and dry for this time of year.
At least one question has been answered for me...My old fuel can had a 6v nicad running a 12v pump and took a while to fuel my jet. I always wondered why they put a small battery on that pump...now I know.
sp
After reading this, I think it could have very well been a static discharge. Even the weather was cool and dry for this time of year.
At least one question has been answered for me...My old fuel can had a 6v nicad running a 12v pump and took a while to fuel my jet. I always wondered why they put a small battery on that pump...now I know.
sp
05-20-2014, 06:36 AM
#29
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Would this work.
Anti-static fuel lines. We use this on some fueling cans, with good results.
http://www.freelin-wade.com/static-d...0a-tubing.html
Clay
Anti-static fuel lines. We use this on some fueling cans, with good results.
http://www.freelin-wade.com/static-d...0a-tubing.html
Clay
05-20-2014, 08:19 AM
#30
......
Static control is not voodoo and smoke and mirrors. The space shuttle program ironed out a lot of this area during its years of research. The papers are out there. Motorola also has published some well defined static build up and discharge testing. Air impurities hitting conductive material builds static. If someone thinks it is voodoo, that someone just has not researched it enough to understand it.
......
Billions.
We fly toy airplanes with the value of single, prone to cracking in the cold, space-shuttle o-ring.
And reading a bunch of electrical journal articles and still likely not see a correlation to our models, nah. It's voodoo bro.
Telemetry with a volt meter between the ground and pipe in flight? Have you even ever had any static d/c issues?
I've had my old kingcat shock me on fuel up and I've had it flame out on me on the ground on a VERY hot day out here in california. I just put a metal stake in the ground and grounded it to the UAT on fill up. No more shocking, no more flame outs. Then one day, I stopped doing that and I never had a "watchdog" off again for hundreds of flights later. Strange.
And after reading all the different solutions and different approaches it is CLEAR that the reasons are UNCLEAR and that the solutions are UNCLEAR.
Some people try different things (wire up all the gear, wire the electronics to the pipe, wire the gear and electronics to the pipe, wire + antistatic spray + antistatic fuel additive, etc...) and their problems go away.
Because of this nebulous presentation, and it's solution, it seems like voodoo to me. All the different solutions have valid, intuitive underpinnings.
And because some people have a problem with IDENTICAL setups, and others don't, and because some people's solutions work and other people's different solutions also solve their problem, it has the feel of "voodoo".
As Sir Arthur C. Clarke said "Any advanced enough technology can seem as magic". And this static d/c stuff seems like a whole lot of voodoo magic that is not well understood in our models.
05-20-2014, 09:32 AM
#31
What is motorola's or NASA's budget to study and try different combinations of metal, materials, fuel yada, yada, yada...?
Billions.
We fly toy airplanes with the value of single, prone to cracking in the cold, space-shuttle o-ring.
And reading a bunch of electrical journal articles and still likely not see a correlation to our models, nah. It's voodoo bro.
Telemetry with a volt meter between the ground and pipe in flight? Have you even ever had any static d/c issues?
I've had my old kingcat shock me on fuel up and I've had it flame out on me on the ground on a VERY hot day out here in california. I just put a metal stake in the ground and grounded it to the UAT on fill up. No more shocking, no more flame outs. Then one day, I stopped doing that and I never had a "watchdog" off again for hundreds of flights later. Strange.
And after reading all the different solutions and different approaches it is CLEAR that the reasons are UNCLEAR and that the solutions are UNCLEAR.
Some people try different things (wire up all the gear, wire the electronics to the pipe, wire the gear and electronics to the pipe, wire + antistatic spray + antistatic fuel additive, etc...) and their problems go away.
Because of this nebulous presentation, and it's solution, it seems like voodoo to me. All the different solutions have valid, intuitive underpinnings.
And because some people have a problem with IDENTICAL setups, and others don't, and because some people's solutions work and other people's different solutions also solve their problem, it has the feel of "voodoo".
As Sir Arthur C. Clarke said "Any advanced enough technology can seem as magic". And this static d/c stuff seems like a whole lot of voodoo magic that is not well understood in our models.
Billions.
We fly toy airplanes with the value of single, prone to cracking in the cold, space-shuttle o-ring.
And reading a bunch of electrical journal articles and still likely not see a correlation to our models, nah. It's voodoo bro.
Telemetry with a volt meter between the ground and pipe in flight? Have you even ever had any static d/c issues?
I've had my old kingcat shock me on fuel up and I've had it flame out on me on the ground on a VERY hot day out here in california. I just put a metal stake in the ground and grounded it to the UAT on fill up. No more shocking, no more flame outs. Then one day, I stopped doing that and I never had a "watchdog" off again for hundreds of flights later. Strange.
And after reading all the different solutions and different approaches it is CLEAR that the reasons are UNCLEAR and that the solutions are UNCLEAR.
Some people try different things (wire up all the gear, wire the electronics to the pipe, wire the gear and electronics to the pipe, wire + antistatic spray + antistatic fuel additive, etc...) and their problems go away.
Because of this nebulous presentation, and it's solution, it seems like voodoo to me. All the different solutions have valid, intuitive underpinnings.
And because some people have a problem with IDENTICAL setups, and others don't, and because some people's solutions work and other people's different solutions also solve their problem, it has the feel of "voodoo".
As Sir Arthur C. Clarke said "Any advanced enough technology can seem as magic". And this static d/c stuff seems like a whole lot of voodoo magic that is not well understood in our models.
05-26-2014, 04:46 AM
#32
More info:
We had a great jet meet at RaF Wyton this weekend.
DB, who had suspected static issues last weekend, flew his Viper with components bonded as I suggested. No more engine shutdowns so the bonding seems to be working.
I flew my BVM F 4 with an AMT Pegasus HPES which is not bonded but has never shown any problems at all. My refuelling is very slow but I still got a strong belt from the CF tailpipe shroud so slow refuelling is not the solution ! Static was around but the Pegasus ran flawlessly as usual.
Weather showed low humidity with very clear vis. with scattered Cu. at around 3000 feet which was not developing vertically. Temp plus 18. Similar to Merryfield last week where DB had the problems, although Wyton was a few degrees cooler.
I am increasingly convinced, from practical experience, that bonding is the best solution and has worked for all those who, to my knowledge, have tried this approach.
David G.
We had a great jet meet at RaF Wyton this weekend.
DB, who had suspected static issues last weekend, flew his Viper with components bonded as I suggested. No more engine shutdowns so the bonding seems to be working.
I flew my BVM F 4 with an AMT Pegasus HPES which is not bonded but has never shown any problems at all. My refuelling is very slow but I still got a strong belt from the CF tailpipe shroud so slow refuelling is not the solution ! Static was around but the Pegasus ran flawlessly as usual.
Weather showed low humidity with very clear vis. with scattered Cu. at around 3000 feet which was not developing vertically. Temp plus 18. Similar to Merryfield last week where DB had the problems, although Wyton was a few degrees cooler.
I am increasingly convinced, from practical experience, that bonding is the best solution and has worked for all those who, to my knowledge, have tried this approach.
David G.
Last edited by David Gladwin; 05-26-2014 at 04:52 AM.
05-31-2014, 06:01 PM
#34
Hey Vin,
I just oust had another thought about this issue. Back in the days of vinyl lp's I used to use an anti-static gun to remove static prior to cleaning them and it work a treat! If I was in your climate I would have one of these on hand as you can remove static as easily as point and shoot at the offending structure, eg fuel tanks, carbon shroud etc. Just another idea to supplement the bonding approach.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Milty-Zer...06528d6&_uhb=1
I just oust had another thought about this issue. Back in the days of vinyl lp's I used to use an anti-static gun to remove static prior to cleaning them and it work a treat! If I was in your climate I would have one of these on hand as you can remove static as easily as point and shoot at the offending structure, eg fuel tanks, carbon shroud etc. Just another idea to supplement the bonding approach.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Milty-Zer...06528d6&_uhb=1
02-14-2015, 12:07 PM
#37
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Hi guys. I'm glad I found this thread. I have a carf/skygate hawk in which the engine shuts down every time I'm spooling up and on a takeoff roll, on Tarmac / concrete runways. It only takes about 50m or so of runway to suffer a shut down.
Now get this. It doesn't happen during takeoff rolls or taxing on grass. Just on concrete.
i proved it this weekend. 7 flights. 3 attempts off concrete all having a shut down. No issues off grass. Same airfield and same day.
I also had a shutdown after touch down on a landing roll on Tarmac/concrete runway. Same day!!
Big models are starting to behave like real ones. Lots of bonding on real aircraft......
I use BVM anti static additive. But I haven't grounded any of the components yet. That's next.
Now get this. It doesn't happen during takeoff rolls or taxing on grass. Just on concrete.
i proved it this weekend. 7 flights. 3 attempts off concrete all having a shut down. No issues off grass. Same airfield and same day.
I also had a shutdown after touch down on a landing roll on Tarmac/concrete runway. Same day!!
Big models are starting to behave like real ones. Lots of bonding on real aircraft......
I use BVM anti static additive. But I haven't grounded any of the components yet. That's next.
Last edited by topiwala; 02-14-2015 at 08:07 PM. Reason: spelling errors
02-14-2015, 03:26 PM
#38
David,
Bring back any memories?
Boys...this is what a proper static discharge looks like...LOL.
Beave
Bring back any memories?
Boys...this is what a proper static discharge looks like...LOL.
Beave
More info:
We had a great jet meet at RaF Wyton this weekend.
DB, who had suspected static issues last weekend, flew his Viper with components bonded as I suggested. No more engine shutdowns so the bonding seems to be working.
I flew my BVM F 4 with an AMT Pegasus HPES which is not bonded but has never shown any problems at all. My refuelling is very slow but I still got a strong belt from the CF tailpipe shroud so slow refuelling is not the solution ! Static was around but the Pegasus ran flawlessly as usual.
Weather showed low humidity with very clear vis. with scattered Cu. at around 3000 feet which was not developing vertically. Temp plus 18. Similar to Merryfield last week where DB had the problems, although Wyton was a few degrees cooler.
I am increasingly convinced, from practical experience, that bonding is the best solution and has worked for all those who, to my knowledge, have tried this approach.
David G.
We had a great jet meet at RaF Wyton this weekend.
DB, who had suspected static issues last weekend, flew his Viper with components bonded as I suggested. No more engine shutdowns so the bonding seems to be working.
I flew my BVM F 4 with an AMT Pegasus HPES which is not bonded but has never shown any problems at all. My refuelling is very slow but I still got a strong belt from the CF tailpipe shroud so slow refuelling is not the solution ! Static was around but the Pegasus ran flawlessly as usual.
Weather showed low humidity with very clear vis. with scattered Cu. at around 3000 feet which was not developing vertically. Temp plus 18. Similar to Merryfield last week where DB had the problems, although Wyton was a few degrees cooler.
I am increasingly convinced, from practical experience, that bonding is the best solution and has worked for all those who, to my knowledge, have tried this approach.
David G.
02-14-2015, 10:23 PM
#39
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BTW, any of the pros on the forum ever had a encounter with St. Elmo's Fire? I think I experienced this once under over-developed conditions and was really quite something.
02-14-2015, 11:19 PM
#40
Topiwala,
A shot of anti static spray on the tires just before the flight works fine but a permanent fix is bonding all three gear, the motor bracket and terminate it to the tailpipe with a spike inside the pipe. My static problems are completely gone after doing that.
Vin...
A shot of anti static spray on the tires just before the flight works fine but a permanent fix is bonding all three gear, the motor bracket and terminate it to the tailpipe with a spike inside the pipe. My static problems are completely gone after doing that.
Vin...
02-15-2015, 03:46 AM
#41
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Hi,
I am DB referred to in Davids post above and experienced about 6 flameouts ,on runway, after take off /downwind etc. Tried foam and anti static spray plus Jet cat fuel additive, kindly given by the "Big Fella" GW on the day. It continued until I bonded all gear and turbine and then it stopped. SO.........
About 6 months later when Jetcat brought out version 10 of their ECU I had another flameout ( whilst bonded) this time it turned out to be the necessity to have the turbine ECU and the pump having the same software compatibility i.e. version 10. Jet cat issued new pumps to us 180 RX owners after about 4 months which has again solved the problem. I confirmed this with Jetcat on their stand at Jetpower 2014. So fair credit to Jetcat as they finally sorted it. I believe their anti static tests were awesome.
So just be careful one problem is not chasing the other as you might be caught out with an expensive flame out.
Regards
David
I am DB referred to in Davids post above and experienced about 6 flameouts ,on runway, after take off /downwind etc. Tried foam and anti static spray plus Jet cat fuel additive, kindly given by the "Big Fella" GW on the day. It continued until I bonded all gear and turbine and then it stopped. SO.........
About 6 months later when Jetcat brought out version 10 of their ECU I had another flameout ( whilst bonded) this time it turned out to be the necessity to have the turbine ECU and the pump having the same software compatibility i.e. version 10. Jet cat issued new pumps to us 180 RX owners after about 4 months which has again solved the problem. I confirmed this with Jetcat on their stand at Jetpower 2014. So fair credit to Jetcat as they finally sorted it. I believe their anti static tests were awesome.
So just be careful one problem is not chasing the other as you might be caught out with an expensive flame out.
Regards
David
02-17-2015, 12:35 AM
#43
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As David said bonding. But the real issue is poor electronics design. Imagine if your car ecu had to reset every time your tires or fuel system built up static. You would blame the manufacturer, not spray stuff on your tires or additives in your gas-tank.
Same goes for some brands of rx design that likes to hold until RUD.
Just common sense engineering.
But of course common sense is not all that common....
Andre
Same goes for some brands of rx design that likes to hold until RUD.
Just common sense engineering.
But of course common sense is not all that common....
Andre
