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  1. #1

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    Should I skip the trainer?

    I was about to purchase a CF reinforced Falcon 120 clone that has a very good reputation as a perfect turbine trainer. I have pretty much decided on a KingTech K-100 turbine for the airplane, and limit the RPMs to keep the thrust at 17-18 pounds. I've talked to KingTech's excellent product technicians who said doing this would be very simple. The reason I wanted to do this is because my ultimate wish is to get a Skymaster F-15, which reportedly flies very well with a KingTech K-100, and I want to simply move the K-100 to the new airframe once I think I'm ready for it.

    But reading many threads here, I've starting to see that the Skymaster F-15 might be suitable as a trainer itself, and I should skip the Falcon 120 all together. Is this something to seriously consider? Or maybe the Falcon is a "keeper". Do folks who get the Falcon tend to sell it once they are ready for a scale jet, or is the Falcon so fun and well behaved that they get both?

    Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #2

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    For training purposes I wouldn't limit the thrust to 18 pounds. Reason being, if you get slow and have to go around, you are going to want all 22lbs of thrust. If you don't want to fly fast,just don't push the throttle all way up. I am not sure I would go right to an F15, but all depends on what you have flown...

  3. #3

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    A JC P60 would fly that plane no problem on 13.5lbs of thrust, so 18lbs is fine….
    Falcon 120, Tornado's, are easy to fly and land airplanes… good choice.

    My .02

    Z

  4. #4

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    BTW, I wish I would have kept my first one, but I bought another (Tornado)… it's my "junker" jet, or rather as I call it "my poor mans Bobcat"…
    Fun airplane, flies like a pattern ship. Good luck

    Z

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by txshan130 View Post
    For training purposes I wouldn't limit the thrust to 18 pounds. Reason being, if you get slow and have to go around, you are going to want all 22lbs of thrust. If you don't want to fly fast,just don't push the throttle all way up. I am not sure I would go right to an F15, but all depends on what you have flown...
    That's a good point. I was just told elsewhere when trying to decide which trainer airframe to get that I shouldn't go over 18 pounds because the airframe can't handle speeds over 150mph or so, and 22 pounds would push it too fast. But obviously, not going full throttle would solve that problem as well... lol

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzuniga View Post
    BTW, I wish I would have kept my first one, but I bought another (Tornado)… it's my "junker" jet, or rather as I call it "my poor mans Bobcat"…
    Fun airplane, flies like a pattern ship. Good luck

    Z
    Hmm. So by "junker" jet, do you mean no stress, fly for fun jet rather than high pucker factor, high stress, high dollar scale jet that is cool to fly but not all that fun? I have a gasser 3D airplane that I don't like to fly because I just am not comfortable risking so much money on 3D maneuvers. I have an Eflite electric Yak 54 that I'll fly 3D like a maniac- and I've crashed it doing stupid low altitude stuff and fixed it with glue- so I have no stress at all and enjoy it.

    I guess maybe I should just do the Falcon 120 thing after all...

  7. #7

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    I'm not a fan of trainer jets. They are not realisticly training you for anything as all other jets will fly different. I've seen a few people get a trainer and not be able to move beyond it because they got too used to it.

    It depends on your flying history. Many EDF are far harder than turbine jets.

    One risk you are taking with the Faggon 120 clone is it may come apart and kill your turbine. If you are going to do a trainer get one that is proven like a tornado or boomerang. Fly it like a trainer as well.

  8. #8

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    The Falcon 120 I was referring to IS the Tornado. The Tornado isn't called "Tornado" anymore, but it is the same aircraft with exactly the same modifications, gear, etc. The Tornado (and the current version) started off as a Falcon 120.

    But I understand your point. I've been flying EDFs for about 5 years. I started into "high power" EDFs (90mm 2500-4000 watts) last summer and find them fun. I just can't stand the short flight duration. If you fly these things wide open, they only last 3 minutes even with large batteries.

    Maybe I should go with a scale jet. I'm so confused. lol

  9. #9

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    "Hmm. So by "junker" jet, do you mean no stress, fly for fun jet rather than high pucker factor, high stress, high dollar scale jet that is cool to fly but not all that fun? I have a gasser 3D airplane that I don't like to fly because I just am not comfortable risking so much money on 3D maneuvers. I have an Eflite electric Yak 54 that I'll fly 3D like a maniac- and I've crashed it doing stupid low altitude stuff and fixed it with glue- so I have no stress at all and enjoy it.

    I guess maybe I should just do the Falcon 120 thing after all…"


    Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Not to mean that RC Jets are by any means cheap. But my Tornado, is thousands of dollars less than my Ripmax Hunter, and although it is a very easy to fly scale jet, I am more on edge flying it due to the $$$ things if something were to happen.

    Z
    Last edited by jzuniga; 05-28-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  10. #10
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    This is a personal choice. So you have to dig a bit deeper into what you want to do.

    If you think you will like turbines, you have field access etc and will fly a lot, you will want to get the Falcon (Navy Cat really) first and then also get the F-15. The Falcon will always be great to have.....more low stress fun. It helps to get the cobwebs off your thumbs in spring. It is great to use for a first flight at a new field, etc. If you go to Jet Rallys you will want a backup plane.

    If you are only going to get one plane and you know you will end up with just the F-15 and not keep both, then skip the Falcon and just get the F-15. If they are set up right that are about as easy to fly scale jet as there can be. Only negatives I have seen is the not so great ground handling with narrow mains. And some of them have a yaw waggle that is ugly but does not affect the performance.

    oh and that bifurcated pipe....ugh
    Last edited by mr_matt; 05-28-2014 at 12:14 PM.
    Matt

  11. #11
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    F15s are very easy planes to fly and if you have been flying large EDFs I don't see the problem. My first turbine was a yellow F22 and I am still flying it today a few years later. I found flying turbines much easier then the EDFs. With the EDFs you land with the same weight you took off with. With the turbines they fly very light after you burn the fuel off.

  12. #12

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    Also, I have a really good buddy that I fly jets with, he's flown a BVM Bobcat for yrs… and he thinks the Tornado is a "nice" easy flying jet...

    Z

  13. #13

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    Ditto, what the previous two posters said…
    (I think that's the proper term?…lol)
    Z

  14. #14

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    Its not uncommon with smaller jets and larger turbines ton ly fly 3 or 4 minutes.
    I had a K80 in a saber and normal flying put me at 3 minutes. One day I was really carefull and putting around, then my gear would not come down, I found this out at 4 minutes. I flamed out at 4:40, and keep in mind I was flying grandpa style that time. It had almost 2L of fuel on board.

    My current viper jet flies 5 minutes and there is not a lot of reserve left.

    I have a 90mm jet now I can fly 8 minutes.

    Case in point unless you get a large jet you probably wont see a huge increase in time.

    If you have someone experienced get the f-15. The biggest risk is not the flight but your first install and run up.

  15. #15

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    If you really want the 15, I'd probably do that. Tornado is relatively inexpensive, but it is a lot of work, effort, & money to put into something you don't really want.
    As far as detuning your KT turbine, it is really easy to do. You could weigh your finished model then calculate your fuel weight (Kero's about 6.6lbs per gallon), then detune your turbine to have just over a 1 to 1 power to weight ratio, or even better, just keep it full power & put an airspeed sensor on it to limit top speed to around 145ish (have this on my 120 powered Sprint). This leads to awesome T/O & GA performance & will get you out of trouble REALLY fast
    Have to be good with self analysis though, overpowering is not for everyone.
    Call Sign blocked.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by essyou35 View Post
    Its not uncommon with smaller jets and larger turbines ton ly fly 3 or 4 minutes.
    I had a K80 in a saber and normal flying put me at 3 minutes. One day I was really carefull and putting around, then my gear would not come down, I found this out at 4 minutes. I flamed out at 4:40, and keep in mind I was flying grandpa style that time. It had almost 2L of fuel on board.

    My current viper jet flies 5 minutes and there is not a lot of reserve left.

    I have a 90mm jet now I can fly 8 minutes.

    Case in point unless you get a large jet you probably wont see a huge increase in time.

    If you have someone experienced get the f-15. The biggest risk is not the flight but your first install and run up.
    3 minute duration in a turbine is a badly set up plane, not worth bothering.

    The plane he is talking about has a usable 84 ounces. Very usable up to a P-100 or maybe p-120. Perfect for a P-60 or P-70
    Matt

  17. #17

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    Well my first question is can you fit the Falcon 120 in your vehical with out a lot of fuse?

    I just got a new Chrysler Town and Contry and it still dont fit in my van with out a lot a issues, as I refuse to take it apart. So I Put it on the roof rack, I drive a little less than an hour to the flying feild at 70mph with no issues, just zip ties throw the prolinks to the cross bars. But if Something bad happens (I was haveing so much fun I ran out of fuel, did not quite make it back and it ripped the nose gear out, then I have to fit it in the van on top of my othere jets a very big pain in the)

    Dose it fly great yes, and I agree with the statements above, I have 3 buddys who have them, and while they have other very nice jets, I have never seen them fly them, only there falcon, and the excuses go on and on, but in the end of the day I just think there scared and are haveing a tone of fun with the falcon. All 3 of them fly there with 22 pound turbines at max power, there a blast, but mine is heavyer and flys almost the same with a very heave 17.5 pound AMT air start Turbine.

    I got my wavor with a JCM Delta Dart 106 with AMT 180 very over weight around 22 pounds with a 45in wing span, while it was like riding a bull it was very challanges and tought me a lot, and now that I know I can fly such a hard jet, everything eles no longer worries me.

    I currently have a Carf Eurosport with KT140 and I would say it flys almost the same as the Falcon, just with more pucker factor.

    I got an F16 with a P80 and while its harder to fly than the Falcon or the Euroosport its not that hard.

    Me personaly recomend everyone to start off with a Falcon 120 as it is easy, and to those who have been flying more challing planes its so easy its almost like a foamy, but it is very cheap, and when you have the first couple of bad landing, its very easy to repair, or just replace, vs a sweet F15 that the first time you bring it in to slow and it drops 2 feet and brakes the nose off you will be very disapointed and may give up as the $$ you lost is ......

    I have even seen one guy (Doctor Honda) put old school ugly stick landing gear legs with a dubro front nose wheel on his falcon. The point is you can get the jet for very cheap, buy the servos you plane on useing in your later F15, and get all the turbine goodies you plan on useing in your F15 (retract, brake vales etc) and build you a Falcon.

    Put 30 flight on it, you may just keep it as I have seen, or pull all your goodies out this winter and put them in your new winter build F15, sell your Falcon for 1/2 the price you paid, and then you few the rest of this summer on a $300 inventement? Heck you can almost spend that much on a smoke system and a servo.

    But at the end of the day its your call, I have been dreaming of a F15 my self, and I just got a sweet P120 for one, but I got offered a Carf Rookie at a very cheap price and I want to try 3D...

    Just make sure you buy good stuff that you can use later.
    Last edited by mikes68charger; 05-28-2014 at 01:26 PM.

  18. #18
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    I have a Shokjet P-80 with 103 oz tank that i can fly for 10 minute and have a 2 minute+ reserve it flies like a Kaos but is ugly as hell. Finishing up a Navy Cat CF that is going to have a Jet Joe 1400 which should fly for 10 minutes. Then I have a SM 2m Viper that I'm putting a P-90 in. Don't know how much fuel the 2 tanks hold but I should get 8-10 minutes flight time. Go wih the Navy Cat.
    Mike Burg

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzuniga View Post
    BTW, I wish I would have kept my first one, but I bought another (Tornado)… it's my "junker" jet, or rather as I call it "my poor mans Bobcat"…
    Fun airplane, flies like a pattern ship. Good luck

    Z
    Yep... good flying plane.

    It fly's so well... and it's so cheap.., there is no way I would ever sell mine.
    Tony

  20. #20

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    Thanks guys. Appreciate all the fantastic input. I was indeed looking at the Navy Cat. I wasn't sure if I could name it specifically since it is in the classified section of this web site.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikes68charger View Post
    Well my first question is can you fit the Falcon 120 in your vehical with out a lot of fuse?

    This is a very good point. A big downside to the Navy Cat design, namely you cant get the wings off without taking the tail off.

    This is a HUGE plus side for the Bobcat. You never have to flip it over when you go to the field.I could it out of the van, drop the gear and put it on the table. Throw the wings on (4 servo connector and 2 bolts). I usually started fueling while putting the wings on....so nice. Big big advantage for an everyday plane.

    I had 3 of them (mid air, cracked wing skin then a failsafe) I can't bring myself to go for number 4!
    Matt

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by essyou35 View Post
    I'm not a fan of trainer jets. They are not realisticly training you for anything as all other jets will fly different. I've seen a few people get a trainer and not be able to move beyond it because they got too used to it.

    It depends on your flying history. Many EDF are far harder than turbine jets.

    One risk you are taking with the Faggon 120 clone is it may come apart and kill your turbine. If you are going to do a trainer get one that is proven like a tornado or boomerang. Fly it like a trainer as well.
    The main reason for a "trainer jet" is for people who are new to turbines to get used to how a turbine engine operates on an airframe that is more forgiving than many scale jet models.
    Pilots who are used to flying IC or electric powered prop planes often have learned that they can get out of trouble (approaching a stall, for instance) by simply slamming the throttle forward and immediately accelerating out of a bad situation. That doesn't work with a turbine powered model, the engines don't respond immediately, and acceleration takes more time. If someone is trying to learn on a model with a heavy wing loading that stalls very abruptly the result is rarely going to be good. With a lighter wing loading and more gentle stall characteristic the pilot has a better chance of recovering and learning from the experience without getting discouraged.
    My first turbine was a Golden West FD3-67 and the spool up time from idle to full thrust (all 8.5 lbs of it) was about 10 seconds. I know the spool up time on modern turbine engines is much better than that, but it is still a lot slower than any prop plane out there. Turbine trainer aircraft are a good idea. I wish there had been one available when made my first turbine flights.
    Kevin Whitlow

  23. #23

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    I have read from two different people that a Falcon 120 variant will fit in my Trailblazer with the wings on. I can carry two 50CC gassers in there with the wings OFF fairly easily. I'm told to fit the Falcon 120 you have to put it in there diagonally. I plan on selling the Trailblazer fairly soon and getting a full sized pickup truck or possibly an Avalanche. I believe getting the airplane in a 8'X4' space shouldn't be terribly difficult.

    I always liked the Bobcat, but I can't see putting that much $$ into it. That much money into a scale fighter jet, yes, but a sport jet... Not something I personally am comfortable with if the Falcon 120 is available despite the greater difficulty with transportation.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by c131frdave View Post

    I always liked the Bobcat, but I can't see putting that much $$ into it. That much money into a scale fighter jet, yes, but a sport jet... Not something I personally am comfortable with if the Falcon 120 is available despite the greater difficulty with transportation.
    Good thinking. If you can keep the thing in one piece to transport it you are golden. Deal with Yong and get a Navy Cat.
    Matt

  25. #25
    mr_matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_W View Post
    My first turbine was a Golden West FD3-67 and the spool up time from idle to full thrust (all 8.5 lbs of it) was about 10 seconds.
    .
    Anyone that flew an FD3-67 or a JPX propane is an eternal hero in my book.

    My turbine trainer was a BVM Bandit. That was a fun maiden :-) I had more $$ in the air than I had spent total on the hobby to date.
    Matt


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