RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

A question about bonding with epoxy/hysol

Reply
Old 07-06-2014, 04:38 PM
  #1
raron455
Thread Starter
 
raron455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Waco TX
Posts: 885
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default A question about bonding with epoxy/hysol

I have a question, I am always asking questions, because I am always trying to learn as much as I can, and the easiest way to learn is to listen to the people who have already been down the road in question,, SO,,

My question is in regards to bonding components together,,this particular situation I am bonding aircraft ply to fiberglass. I recently had a flame out, and got the plane down in 1 piece, but cracked 1/2 of a round former the gear mounts to, I removed the damaged section, sanded and cleaned, then layed 3 layers of heavy cloth from one side of the fuse to the other where the former goes.I have a new 1/2 former fitted and ready to install, and to be honest I am hung up right now. I am experienced with using 2 part epoxies such as the west systems, I have used this epoxy in multiple instances with great luck.
I had planned on mixing up a batch with some cabosil in it to make it thicker, so I could build up around the edges for more support, but now I am actually wondering about HYSOL,,
I have never used the stuff so I don't know the first thing about it, Except that a lot of guys swear by it, and it is costly, plus gotta buy the gun and dispersion tubes also.
SO I have a few questions for you guys with more experience than me

1. Is Hysol a stronger Epoxy than say the west systems, or even the conventional 30min. epoxy
2. What is the consistency of Hysol when it comes out, is it thin and runny, or more thick and controllable.

I thank you guys in advance for your help and advice with this question,,, I am sure others will learn from this post also,,
Ronnie
raron455 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 05:19 PM
  #2
Pepperpete
 
Pepperpete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Grande Prairie, AB, CANADA
Posts: 630
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hysol is the ONLY glue I use. It is thick and absolutely controllable. Even form-able to a point. It is VASTLY stronger than 30minute epoxy and never ever gets brittle which can be the death of a plane. I don't know about the West Systems glue as I haven't used it but Hysol has never let me down. Yes it's expensive. But lordy man ask yourself what you are using it on. A multi-thousand dollar plane deserves a glue that can stand up to the task.
Pepperpete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 05:25 PM
  #3
causeitflies
 
causeitflies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: EASTERN OHIO
Posts: 1,800
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Thickened West Systems should be fine but I use West Systems Six-10 in a cartridge.
causeitflies is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2014, 07:55 PM
  #4
ChrisPetersen
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hyrum, UT
Posts: 265
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hysol is a fantastic product, In my opinion it's stronger then the wood or glass it's holding. If you don't want the gun you can mix it like epoxy but the gun makes it alot easier. Good stuff
ChrisPetersen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 12:37 AM
  #5
marc s
 
marc s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: farnborough, , UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,131
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hi, I have used West Sixt too when we produced a jet for a short run project and found it to be very good, one interesting feature about the Six-10 epoxy is the way is thins as you mix it and then reverts to a gel like consistency after, one issue however is when you are making a fillet by running a finger (naturally with a latex glove on) it tends to revert to is thinner state during this action which means it does not fillet/smooth as easily as Hysol 9462.

As mentioned Hysol 9462 is very good, thixotropic (non sagging) and easy to apply and fillet, yes expensive but well worth it in my opinion. There are other Hysol products too which are cheaper and also very good like Hysol 9464, this is a slate grey product so maybe not as pleasing to the eye but cures slightly quicker than 9462 and sets rock hard too.

Grab a gun but no need to use the nozzles, just squeeze some into a small cup and mix by hand - apply using a syringe which are as cheap as chips.

marcs
marc s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 02:32 AM
  #6
Vettster
 
Vettster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Beeton, Ontario, CANADA
Posts: 1,222
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

From what I have observed over the years in regards to Epoxy vrs Hysol is that Epoxy has a tendency to shatter like glass when forces are applied...where as Hysol has more of a very hard plastic characteristic that gives(to a point..) when forces are applied.

I use a lot of Hysol E-20HP. Cures in about 2hrs, is Clear, Fuel Proof and only cost $11 per tube. Sorry I dont recall the name of the company that sells it.. but there in Michigan and 10 tips are only 5bucks
Vettster is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 02:52 AM
  #7
Tuggs
 
Tuggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Baden, GERMANY
Posts: 251
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I Use BVM aeropoxy. Very happy with it. Especially the quick cure 5 min aeropox is great.
Tuggs is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 04:46 AM
  #8
marc s
 
marc s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: farnborough, , UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,131
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Tips might be 5 bucks but the epoxy left in them is far more costly

marcs
marc s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 05:01 AM
  #9
schroedm
 
schroedm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SevenoaksKent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 5,192
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Marc, what size syringes do you use generally?
schroedm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 06:02 AM
  #10
Pepperpete
 
Pepperpete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Grande Prairie, AB, CANADA
Posts: 630
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schroedm View Post
Marc, what size syringes do you use generally?
I never considered using syringes either so I would also like to know.
Pepperpete is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 06:50 AM
  #11
MJD
 
MJD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orangeville, ON, CANADA
Posts: 8,605
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vettster View Post
From what I have observed over the years in regards to Epoxy vrs Hysol
Hysol E20HP is epoxy.. but it is a well formulated epoxy structural adhesive system with tougheners and well dispersed fillers. Such a system will have better flexural properties than any hand mixed combination of resins and fillers. The West 6 sounds like is lighter on the thixotroping fillers if it leans to liquid phase that much when being spread.
MJD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 06:55 AM
  #12
HarryC
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: private, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,512
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I use these style of syringe for applying hysol or measuring paints for mixing. The important thing is they don't have the rubber bung, because the rubber bung comes with a silicon lubricant which contaminates paint and won't help epoxies either though its bad influence there is going to be far less.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-x-2ml-...ht_1960wt_1213
HarryC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 07:21 AM
  #13
bri6672
 
bri6672's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 401
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I use both west systems and hysol 9462 on various projects. I now use hysol on all formers, it leaves a much cleaner look and like mentioned it is extremely low sag. For mixing I use the gun (no tips) to put the amount needed on to a lid and mix it by hand, be sure to mix it for a full minute!!!
bri6672 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 07:37 AM
  #14
FalconWings
 
FalconWings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,573
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

raron, both can yield excellent results if applied correctly.

#1 Clean the area throughly. rub with alcohol, then use 100grit sand paper to scuff the mating parts, then wipe again with alcohol.
#2 Mix epoxy thorughly. Mix that thing for a good while, and then some. Add milled fibers if you have some.
#3 Apply force when curing. This could be hard to do depending on the location of the bulkhead. I have used tiny screws to attach the former to the fuselage, and cover the holes later.
#4 Make nice glue fillet all around

That being said, 30 min epoxy should work fine. I use Hysol E20HP a lot too, it is great! If your fuselage is Polyester, Hysol works better.

David
FalconWings is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 07:39 AM
  #15
ravill
 
ravill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Redwood City
Posts: 4,186
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I used the special little tips for the hysol gun once and I just couldn't get over how much hysol I wasted.

BVM aeropoxy = Hysol

I use Hysol almost exclusively in every airplane now. It's thixotropic = It STAYS where you put it. You can sand it, shape it and paint it.

If you are flying a 200 mph, 40 pound missile, if the cost of $14.95 tough as nails glue and the cost of high torque servos are just too much a stretch, you are likely doing yourself and the safety of others around you a disservice.

Once you start using it, I bet you'll never look back.
ravill is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 08:17 AM
  #16
FalconWings
 
FalconWings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,573
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

You know there is misconception between a rigid bond and a good bond. Rigid bond will more than likely destroy an airframe upon light-moderate impact, whereas a good epoxy bond may snap out and absorb some of the impact.
A model like a BVM Bandit is so well designed that it would even survive on a good CA bond on most formers and bulkheads. The critical thing is how the load is distributed (design dependant).
On a model like a typical FEJ, where contact area is frequenly not even present, the possibility of a good bond using any glue is unlikely. I that case, I'd go for a rigid bond like Hysol, mixed with fibers. I think this is raron's case.

Sorry for the nerd intervention.
FalconWings is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 08:40 AM
  #17
marc s
 
marc s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: farnborough, , UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,131
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Guys, a 10ml syringe is a good size, it allows you to mix the 9462 with wooden coffee stirrers (free ) and fits in the syringe with epoxy without messing it down the sides!

Here is a link for some I use - work out at 6.5p a shot

marcs

http://www.medisave.co.uk/terumo-10m...0-p-99712.html
marc s is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 08:50 AM
  #18
invertmast
 
invertmast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: North Port, Fl
Posts: 7,646
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I use Alot of E20HP, so much so I buy it in 200ML cartridges and have the gun to go with it (its like the 50Cal of hysol guns). I use it for closing up composite molds with structure inside as well as general installation of parts in fiberglass and wood models. The slighly runnier state of E20HP allows it to soak into wood parts giving IMO a better bond. 9462 i use for bonding things with higher loads imposed on them and for filleting.
invertmast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 09:54 AM
  #19
JeffH
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Carrollton, VA
Posts: 2,261
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

McMaster carr also sells empty hysol-like cartridges. This will allow you to pre mix west systems and cabosil, milled fiber etc, load it into a cartridge and then use the normal gun to reach tight places or in places where neatness counts. Scrape it out and throw it in a jar of acetone when you are done and it will be ready for the next use. You can use the nozzles, but take out the mixing spiral since the epoxy is already mixed.
JeffH is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 10:06 AM
  #20
sensei
 
sensei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SAN ANTONIO, TX
Posts: 2,630
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=C...opping&cad=rja

I have been using these Monoject 412s for around twenty years or so. As far as adhesives go there is also 3M-1838 structural adhesive 3M 2216 structural adhesive and Plexus MA 310 is a good adhesive as well.

Bob
sensei is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 10:55 AM
  #21
DiscoWings
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 2,714
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

where are you guys getting the six 10 looks pretty good.

I have also had good luck mixing standard 30 min with milled fiber this takes away the shattering aspect.
DiscoWings is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 11:44 AM
  #22
invertmast
 
invertmast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: North Port, Fl
Posts: 7,646
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoWings View Post
where are you guys getting the six 10 looks pretty good.

I have also had good luck mixing standard 30 min with milled fiber this takes away the shattering aspect.
I got my tube from jamestown distributors
invertmast is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 11:46 AM
  #23
raron455
Thread Starter
 
raron455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Waco TX
Posts: 885
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

thanks for all the advice guys, I purchased some Hysol from DreamWorks, I will use it to secure the bulkhead,, once again thanks for all the input,,
raron455 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 12:19 PM
  #24
MJD
 
MJD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orangeville, ON, CANADA
Posts: 8,605
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensei View Post
h
I have been using these Monoject 412s for around twenty years or so. As far as adhesives go there is also 3M-1838 structural adhesive 3M 2216 structural adhesive and Plexus MA 310 is a good adhesive as well.

Bob
You're the first guy I've seen mention using 2-part methacrylic adhesives for structural work on models. They have killer properties for certain applications, to me their claim to fame is the ability to bond unusual combinations of substrates very effectively, i.e. aluminum to composites, aluminum to ABS are two I've used it for commercially with good success. No better than anything else on low surface energy plastics, like PE or PP though. It's not too resistant to glow fuel either.
MJD is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 01:19 PM
  #25
sensei
 
sensei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SAN ANTONIO, TX
Posts: 2,630
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJD View Post
You're the first guy I've seen mention using 2-part methacrylic adhesives for structural work on models. They have killer properties for certain applications, to me their claim to fame is the ability to bond unusual combinations of substrates very effectively, i.e. aluminum to composites, aluminum to ABS are two I've used it for commercially with good success. No better than anything else on low surface energy plastics, like PE or PP though. It's not too resistant to glow fuel either.
I have been utilizing Plexus-MA 310 in aerospace composites and on my models for many years now, and as you already stated, when used in the proper applications it has killer properties.

Bob

Last edited by sensei; 07-08-2014 at 03:52 AM.
sensei is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:08 AM.