RC. Turbine Water Crash
#26
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As a USAF Jet Engine Mechanic, I can tell you that you are going to want to send that engine into Jetcat. The temps you see on these with sudden shock to cold temps is not good. We had a KC135 engine years back that caught fire ,and we hit it with fire hoses, and I can tell you it came to a screeching halt! It had to be completely torn down, as the hot section was toasted. It tweaked the burner cans so bad, heat couldn't get them apart. Nothing inside was serviceable except for the fuel injectors and external parts.
I had my P70 overspeed a year and a half ago, the compressor touched the case, and everything had to replaced to the tune of $900, so I think you should be prepared for a hefty bill at Jet Cat. Pray for the best, but expect the worst. I would not run the engine at all. Even if it "seems" okay. You do not know the condition of those parts, and I would hate to see one come apart and kill someone.
Bottom line, when you got your turbine waiver, it states in AMA section 510a:
Any engine involved in a crash where high G loads were probable must be examined and certified as safe
to operate by a manufacturer approved service center before operating and flying again.
As a Leader Member, CD, and Fixed wing turbine waiver holder myself, if I were to see the engine run/fly without being inspected by an authorized service center, I would Ping AMA and recommend to Suspend your turbine waiver. I am not trying to be a dick, but I think that that is putting the public and fellow modelers near you at risk. We already have undue attention on us because of "Drones", we don't need it on us because of turbines too.
We as turbine waiver holders and AMA members are obliged to uphold safety first, regardless. I know its not news you want to hear, but its the truth. I know I will receive flak for saying this, but You guys know what the right thing to do is.
I had my P70 overspeed a year and a half ago, the compressor touched the case, and everything had to replaced to the tune of $900, so I think you should be prepared for a hefty bill at Jet Cat. Pray for the best, but expect the worst. I would not run the engine at all. Even if it "seems" okay. You do not know the condition of those parts, and I would hate to see one come apart and kill someone.
Bottom line, when you got your turbine waiver, it states in AMA section 510a:
Any engine involved in a crash where high G loads were probable must be examined and certified as safe
to operate by a manufacturer approved service center before operating and flying again.
As a Leader Member, CD, and Fixed wing turbine waiver holder myself, if I were to see the engine run/fly without being inspected by an authorized service center, I would Ping AMA and recommend to Suspend your turbine waiver. I am not trying to be a dick, but I think that that is putting the public and fellow modelers near you at risk. We already have undue attention on us because of "Drones", we don't need it on us because of turbines too.
We as turbine waiver holders and AMA members are obliged to uphold safety first, regardless. I know its not news you want to hear, but its the truth. I know I will receive flak for saying this, but You guys know what the right thing to do is.
#27
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I only have 2 other jet poilts that I get to sometimes get to fly with, and while they both have some nice jets they tend to only fly there falcon 120.
While I have had issues from the start, it was from trying to get into this part of the hobby very low buck.
Flying very old used previous crashed jets with old school AMT motors tend to build planes most cant fly
My deta dart 106 nitro conversion AMT was 10 pounds over weight and my boys were scared to fly it
That is why im trying to get only good stuff. I love my Carf Eurosport and Rookie 2. While im still working on my Byron F16 conversation with p80. Some of the fun is trying to make things work
#28
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With turbines, trying to take the low buck approach, and flying marginal or questionable products is totally contrary to what it should be. I am on a budget too, but I do buy the best parts I can for the money, even if it means saving for 6 months to buy stuff. Why would you have $4000 in airframe and engine, yet use $8 Hobby King servos? That not only is a recipe for disaster, its flat out dangerous, I don't care how many great reviews and stars the item got on a web site. It puts the pilot, spectators and everyone around the flying field at risk, and for what? $100-300 for servos....really? If you find you can't afford it, please don't enter the turbine realm, you can be just as good a pilot flying a lot less expensive and dangerous airframes. Jets by there very nature demand the very best, in pilot skills, building skills and maintenance. Do not settle for anything less.
#30
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Mike man, don't listen to the naysayers.
You are just an honest dude with some honest questions who isn't afraid to share his mistakes.
We all make them.
And anyone who can look at himself and share his inadequacies with such candor and have so much fun doing seems like a cool dude to me who likely also has a reasonable head on his shoulders.
You are just an honest dude with some honest questions who isn't afraid to share his mistakes.
We all make them.
And anyone who can look at himself and share his inadequacies with such candor and have so much fun doing seems like a cool dude to me who likely also has a reasonable head on his shoulders.
#32
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I'm guessing those 6 back flips with the engine running put more gyroscopic loads on the engine internals than a flat spin into the water with the engine off and protected inside the fuselage.
Hey, at least you got into some of the 3D stuff you were looking for. I am also puzzled about why thrust vectoring at power didn't get you out of it.
Hey, at least you got into some of the 3D stuff you were looking for. I am also puzzled about why thrust vectoring at power didn't get you out of it.
#34
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Thanks guys. I don't go cheap but as not everyone can drop 6k in there first jet I had to worked my way up, heck I got more in my eurosport than my first motorcycle.
I still have 2 sweet AMT 180 and starting box just sitting in the corner, as I have moved on to better I don't know what to do with them. Sell them to another beginner just sit on them as I have had so many jet poilts look down on me for busting out my air tank and starter box.
Im not worried about the motor but I was thinking of sending it in to have it upgraded to a SE. So ill see what that will cost on Monday
When I went to KY jets this year it was the first time I have actually seen jets except mine and my boys. I have come to the realization that there are entry level jet poilts and those I will never be while working in the Army. I cant image spending over 10k on a jet but hey thats me
Heck I even have thought of building a Byron F16 nitro ducted to see how far things really have came
I still have 2 sweet AMT 180 and starting box just sitting in the corner, as I have moved on to better I don't know what to do with them. Sell them to another beginner just sit on them as I have had so many jet poilts look down on me for busting out my air tank and starter box.
Im not worried about the motor but I was thinking of sending it in to have it upgraded to a SE. So ill see what that will cost on Monday
When I went to KY jets this year it was the first time I have actually seen jets except mine and my boys. I have come to the realization that there are entry level jet poilts and those I will never be while working in the Army. I cant image spending over 10k on a jet but hey thats me
Heck I even have thought of building a Byron F16 nitro ducted to see how far things really have came
#35
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If your electronics ended up in fresh water, you may have a chance to salvage after drying thoroughly. However, the reliability of those components and boards is now under question having gone through a variety of shorts (most likely some ions in the solution). Anyways, you have to thoroughly test everything if you want to use it again. The problem is you can't easily test the full set of vectors. And that is why I would send in something like the ECU and probably the RX. my 2c.
#36
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Mike,
Don't listen to the hate'rs. I'm right with you, and understand. I don't have more than $1500 into any one of my jet models. Used engines, and inexpensive airframes, make for a good time.
Cheap doesn't make it unsafe.
Don't listen to the hate'rs. I'm right with you, and understand. I don't have more than $1500 into any one of my jet models. Used engines, and inexpensive airframes, make for a good time.
Cheap doesn't make it unsafe.
#37
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Melnickj has the right idea to flush the electronics with distilled water before powering up again. Pure water doesn't conduct electricity, it's the impurities in water that do. So as the lake water dries out it is a lottery as to whether or not it deposits some particles of conductive miners in the wrong place. Throughly rinse in distilled water and then throughly dry. When you think you have blown it dry it still won't be so leave it some warm and dry for a few days to be sure. You could be lucky, but it could already have been fried. Persnally I have had good results using this method.
John
John
#38
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Dr. Honda,
Sorry, I disagree. You can get used airframes and perform repairs etc, or engines that are out of date and in good shape and fly on the cheap that way. However where I disagree is, if you fire up a turbine that has been in a pretty good impact, then submerged in cold water after an emergency shutdown..you ARE violating the Rules set forth by AMA, as I posted earlier..period, end of story. You therefore can and should have your waiver temporarily suspended if that is the case, and if continued, revoked. You are putting an unknown engine and everyone around you at risk. You are in essence flying a test bed every time you flip the switch. You cant tell me what stresses where put on that engine in the rapid cool down, you cant tell me something inside was not compromised, until its torn down, inspected, you absolutely cannot! You therefore have no certainty that that engine is safe to run. You are then violating your turbine waiver. If God forbid, something happens, AMA and your insurance company is not going to cover you at all.
Sorry it sucks, but you know I am right!
Sorry, I disagree. You can get used airframes and perform repairs etc, or engines that are out of date and in good shape and fly on the cheap that way. However where I disagree is, if you fire up a turbine that has been in a pretty good impact, then submerged in cold water after an emergency shutdown..you ARE violating the Rules set forth by AMA, as I posted earlier..period, end of story. You therefore can and should have your waiver temporarily suspended if that is the case, and if continued, revoked. You are putting an unknown engine and everyone around you at risk. You are in essence flying a test bed every time you flip the switch. You cant tell me what stresses where put on that engine in the rapid cool down, you cant tell me something inside was not compromised, until its torn down, inspected, you absolutely cannot! You therefore have no certainty that that engine is safe to run. You are then violating your turbine waiver. If God forbid, something happens, AMA and your insurance company is not going to cover you at all.
Sorry it sucks, but you know I am right!
#39
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Melnickj has the right idea to flush the electronics with distilled water before powering up again. Pure water doesn't conduct electricity, it's the impurities in water that do. So as the lake water dries out it is a lottery as to whether or not it deposits some particles of conductive miners in the wrong place. Throughly rinse in distilled water and then throughly dry. When you think you have blown it dry it still won't be so leave it some warm and dry for a few days to be sure. You could be lucky, but it could already have been fried. Persnally I have had good results using this method.
John
John
#41
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I thought I posted but the p120 is already on its way to JetCat for a SE conversion and clean bill of health
I have to say crashing is never good but I still feel like I got off easy. $300 for new parts from Carf and $400 for motor upgrade
If it would of went down on the rocks there probably be nothing left
#42
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BA and Mike,
We as turbine waivers swear on the turbine waiver to up hold the rules and policy. I'm sorry, but being looked at the way you are saying, because I am a leader member, and a contest director, that I am simply reminding you of the rules, when in a post, I see a simple flush with fuel and a test are probably whats going to happen. I cannot let that go man, I cant...and neither can anyone holding a waiver! Period. Sorry I am not obviously in your good ol boy posting network.
We as turbine waivers swear on the turbine waiver to up hold the rules and policy. I'm sorry, but being looked at the way you are saying, because I am a leader member, and a contest director, that I am simply reminding you of the rules, when in a post, I see a simple flush with fuel and a test are probably whats going to happen. I cannot let that go man, I cant...and neither can anyone holding a waiver! Period. Sorry I am not obviously in your good ol boy posting network.
#43
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BA and Mike,
We as turbine waivers swear on the turbine waiver to up hold the rules and policy. I'm sorry, but being looked at the way you are saying, because I am a leader member, and a contest director, that I am simply reminding you of the rules, when in a post, I see a simple flush with fuel and a test are probably whats going to happen. I cannot let that go man, I cant...and neither can anyone holding a waiver! Period. Sorry I am not obviously in your good ol boy posting network.
We as turbine waivers swear on the turbine waiver to up hold the rules and policy. I'm sorry, but being looked at the way you are saying, because I am a leader member, and a contest director, that I am simply reminding you of the rules, when in a post, I see a simple flush with fuel and a test are probably whats going to happen. I cannot let that go man, I cant...and neither can anyone holding a waiver! Period. Sorry I am not obviously in your good ol boy posting network.
Not from me, I get hatted on so much in this part of the RC Hobbie It dont bother me, Ill be honest I never really thought there would be a safety issue with motor, as it had time to completly shut down before touch down.
It not really a big deal as I was planning on sending it in when the snow came, but a little sooner is not a deal breaker,
To be honest what has me bothered, is that the jet was in a perfect hover, and was still falling down, at a exsactly 20pound empty weight, and I was towerds the end of my flight with a 26 pound motor, I would have figured I would have had the thrust to pull out, but I was wrong. Now that Im getting the motor upgreaded to 30 pounds of thrust, I don't think it will be enogh.
SO I think I might just put my P80 in it and call it a day and save the P120 for a new shinny bird... Which one there are so many. LOL
#44
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Funny, my son had his Rookie II in a slowly descending hover with a P-120 and couldn't get it out either. Made a nice soft landing tail first into the weeds.
Had that scare a couple times too but always got out with some sharp stick raps and hard over rudder. Or, idle until it fell out, luckily with enough altitude. But, some were pretty close to the ground. Gets the heart rate up.
Had that scare a couple times too but always got out with some sharp stick raps and hard over rudder. Or, idle until it fell out, luckily with enough altitude. But, some were pretty close to the ground. Gets the heart rate up.
#45
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Problem is that when you are in a perfect stationary hover, there are perpendicular forces (wind) that should be compensated with the only thrust force you have available, (26 pounds), making your vertical force equal or less than 20 pounds, and consequently making impossible the airplane to climb, or even stop falling.
But donīt mind about what happened.. you arenīt the first nor the last to screw up with a model jet.. fix this stuff as soon as you can and keep flying it and having fun.
But donīt mind about what happened.. you arenīt the first nor the last to screw up with a model jet.. fix this stuff as soon as you can and keep flying it and having fun.
#46
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Funny, my son had his Rookie II in a slowly descending hover with a P-120 and couldn't get it out either. Made a nice soft landing tail first into the weeds.
Had that scare a couple times too but always got out with some sharp stick raps and hard over rudder. Or, idle until it fell out, luckily with enough altitude. But, some were pretty close to the ground. Gets the heart rate up.
Had that scare a couple times too but always got out with some sharp stick raps and hard over rudder. Or, idle until it fell out, luckily with enough altitude. But, some were pretty close to the ground. Gets the heart rate up.
Was it a regular p120 or se p120 26 vs 30 pounds of thrust?
#47
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Funny, my son had his Rookie II in a slowly descending hover with a P-120 and couldn't get it out either. Made a nice soft landing tail first into the weeds.
Had that scare a couple times too but always got out with some sharp stick raps and hard over rudder. Or, idle until it fell out, luckily with enough altitude. But, some were pretty close to the ground. Gets the heart rate up.
Had that scare a couple times too but always got out with some sharp stick raps and hard over rudder. Or, idle until it fell out, luckily with enough altitude. But, some were pretty close to the ground. Gets the heart rate up.
I wonder if the 4 pounds would make a difference. Thanks
Was it a regular p120 or se p120 26 vs 30 pounds of thrust?
#48
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Regular P-120. SE, SX, etc. didn't exist then. I've had everything from a P-70 to a Titan in one or the other of the 3 I've had. Admittedly, I had the Titan dialed back to 115K. One of the Rookies flew with a brand new (then) P-120SE and not dialed back. I don't recall ever being able to keep the airplane from descending in the "hover". The SE airplane didn't last long as I had it in a max speed hard turn and a canard failed with the right wing breaking off. It was flight 13.
Actually, looking back at my spreadsheet, I lost the first Rookie to a right wing breaking off (P-80 powered). Maybe it was because it was the 8th flight that day.
Actually, looking back at my spreadsheet, I lost the first Rookie to a right wing breaking off (P-80 powered). Maybe it was because it was the 8th flight that day.
Last edited by Thud_Driver; 07-21-2014 at 02:45 PM.