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Why rebuilding turbine by jet companies cost so much $ is this monopol .

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Why rebuilding turbine by jet companies cost so much $ is this monopol .

Old 10-03-2014, 05:18 AM
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sysiek
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Default Why rebuilding turbine by jet companies cost so much $ is this monopol .

Hi just recently did my total transmission rebuild in my f-150 and the total bill with removing and install was $1400 with 3 year warranty ,the rebuild tok so many parts at least 8 bearings gears and clutch disks springs gaskets and hard work ,in other hand I did rebuild the jet central super eagle compressor and two bearings + some brash starting motor and the bill was close to $700 is this normal and all the crazy charges by jet companies like basic service by jet cat range $450-$650 is this ok , the pictures show turbine the turbine parts and transmission ,I used the kingtech turbine only for showing the parts this was the only picture I found with the turbine parts ,and the transmission .just wandering is the turbine industry looks like monopoly ?
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:32 AM
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Think about how many hundreds of thousands of transmissions get done every year. The parts are mass produced and cheap. Labor is often done by apprentices making less per hour in a shop with multiple vehicles in per day lowering overhead.
Your transmission is equivalent to an OS40. They are everywhere. Your turbine is equivalent to a Ferrari transmission. You are paying a premium for something that is really a luxury and not significantly mass produced. You're paying for shop overhead in a place that isn't doing 300 a week and right or wrong has specialized workers. Comparatively speaking there are very few turbines out there despite how big our sector of the market sometimes appears. Turbines do require specialized equipment for balancing than a two or four stroke engine do and that is overhead. It's a hard pill to swallow but much like the Ferrari, if you want to own a luxury item unfortunately you will pay luxury maintenance costs.
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Old 10-03-2014, 05:48 AM
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Harley Condra
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It's a very simple answer.
The size of the marketplace, and the amount of options. The market dictates the costs of doing business. Capitalism.
Model turbine sales represent a very small and very specialized portion part of the global marketplace.
Most of the model turbine parts are produced offshore as well. Transportation costs raise the price too. I don't think that your repair shop specialist absorbs the transportation costs...he passes them along to you.
Even at the prices they have to charge, I don't think that there are many people in the model turbine sales and/or repair business that drive a different new Ferrari to work every day. I could be wrong, but in order to create a small fortune in that business, you need to start with a large fortune.

Your transmission didn't need to be rebuilt at all; you chose to do it, and you could have replaced it with a junkyard transmission.
You could also purchase a used car and strip it for parts, or buy a replacement transmission on Ebay. In less than 20 seconds, Ebay revealed tons of them for as little as $600.00. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...ssion&_sacat=0
In the auto parts business, there is a ton of competition.....
I suppose there are more options than I have described, but lets face it. The amount of Ford F-150 transmissions sold in one day far outnumber the amount of model turbines sold in a year.
How many model turbines are available in junkyards, or on Ebay?

How many turbines are for sale on Ebay? Today, a quick search revealed none. Repair parts: none.
I complain about the prices too, but spend the $$ at JetCat anyway...

Last edited by Harley Condra; 10-04-2014 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:00 AM
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I never owned Ferrari I did once dodge viper and I did some modification to the clutch and rear end the manual transmission cost about the same is the modern automatic + now I do some drifting with nissans 240 I have two one stret legal and one not so much with close to 500hp and the parts are less expensive now the big turbo cost me $360 and the intercoller $240 the tires cost me the most ,ones I own the junk Ducati 916 I spand so much on the extra parts and the notorious desmotronic valve setups when pushed to hard now I have the bullet prof honda cbr 1100 xx black bird and for 6 years no $ spend on bs tuning just oil and gas tires and I ride the think hard the Ducati was totall fiasco compared to the cbr .
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:26 AM
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I have 5 jetcat turbines and I think this is the end of his brand for me the maintenance cost is just to much and the service turnaround no comment so when the will be time for them I just going to spend the $ to buy kingtech with fix service price and no forever waiting this is just the smart thing to do ,I think the should be more competition between turbine company's just like the first lipo and brushless motors look now at the prices 2200 mah 3s $7 and 10 years ago the same battery from thunder power was $90 time will show ,and the biggest problem with hobby the is not to many young kids interested in this think just tablets cell phones and ps4 .
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:28 AM
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Transmission parts are produced by the millions and can be serviced by 200+ shops within a 20 mile range. Model turbine parts are typically produced in tiny batches (maybe 100 units at a time) and only a handful of qualified people to service them. Simple economics....
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:39 AM
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Don't traumatize is just small turbine engine and the most sample one ,I did work on the big turbines for the fighter jets and this was relatively easy when learn just bigger and more bearings and injectors .
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Old 10-03-2014, 06:56 AM
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One more thing .The only thing that keeps the turbine service price high is the monopoly for parts .and the turbine company's know that when the parts will be available to the hobbyist the income will drop 50% just like the transmission prices.
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:22 AM
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Harley Condra
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Originally Posted by sysiek View Post
One more thing .The only thing that keeps the turbine service price high is the monopoly for parts .and the turbine company's know that when the parts will be available to the hobbyist the income will drop 50% just like the transmission prices.

[Quote] sysiek; Don't traumatize is just small turbine engine and the most sample one ,I did work on the big turbines for the fighter jets and this was relatively easy when learn just bigger and more bearings and injectors .



Why don't you design and build your own turbine if it such a small deal?
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:06 AM
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Economy of scale.

All nicely elaborated by everyone here.

I hear you about pricing, turbine service turnaround, etc...

And what Harley just suggested to you, is the exact same thing Enzo Ferrari spoke to Ferrucio Lamborghini. And thank god Enzo did say it.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:09 AM
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[QUOTE=Harley Condra;11892629]
sysiek; Don't traumatize is just small turbine engine and the most sample one ,I did work on the big turbines for the fighter jets and this was relatively easy when learn just bigger and more bearings and injectors .



Why don't you design and build your own turbine if it such a small deal?

+1

put up or shut up.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:32 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by sysiek View Post
Don't traumatize is just small turbine engine and the most sample one ,I did work on the big turbines for the fighter jets and this was relatively easy when learn just bigger and more bearings and injectors .
How much did it cost to rebuild a full scale turbine? I would guess that compared against that our servicing is a bargain!
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:47 AM
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I like your build on the f-14 .I just don't have the capital to build new brand of turbine and this is hard to dour at least in USA its much easier in countries with less expensive labor and where it's so many government owned cnc machines and low paid quality workers. The point is I wish the will be more competition in this hobby to make this more affordable you don't have to drive Ferrari to make you happy the Toyota Honda will do just fine maybe least expensive turbine will make the hobby better and not so isolated to others with less income that was my point. Don't hate me for trying make this hobby better for all.If it would make u happier turbines would be more affordability

Last edited by sysiek; 10-03-2014 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:57 AM
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It costs a lot more than average Jo can afford but trust me there more full scale jets owners than to jets.and this should be considered the Ferrari not as plying with toy jets for fan kill the extra time.

Last edited by sysiek; 10-03-2014 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:01 AM
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Harley Condra
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Originally Posted by ravill View Post
Economy of scale.

All nicely elaborated by everyone here.

I hear you about pricing, turbine service turnaround, etc...

And what Harley just suggested to you, is the exact same thing Enzo Ferrari spoke to Ferrucio Lamborghini. And thank god Enzo did say it.
And at the time, Lamborghini was a tractor manufacturer and had the manufacturing equipment, factory space etc. already available, but he did hire an automotive design team to design and build the first Lamborghini....the rest is history.

That's the big difference.

Last edited by Harley Condra; 10-04-2014 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sysiek View Post
I like your build on the f-14 .I just don't have the capital to build new brand of turbine and this is hard to dour at least in USA its much easier in countries with less expensive labor and where it's so many government owned cnc machines and low paid quality workers. The point is I wish the will be more competition in this hobby to make this more affordable you don't have to drive Ferrari to make you happy the Toyota Honda will do just fine maybe least expensive turbine will make the hobby better and not so isolated to others with less income that was my point. Don't hate me for trying make this hobby better for all.If it would make u happier turbines would be more affordability

Have you looked at the Kingtech turbines? Their prices are around 25% lower than anybody else...

Bob
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:41 AM
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Yes I own two the k-170 and k-180 the grate with all the good features the great warranty and fix service price + grate people to work with .Not like the others.so bad that came so late.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:08 AM
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IMO the turbines are much better priced than the air frames.
I have a skymaster mig which lists as over 5K and the turbine is only3-4K.
I would say if anything, the airframes are the problem. At least the turbines have real technology in them.

Last edited by essyou35; 10-03-2014 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:12 AM
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I think it takes a lot more time to build a jet than turbine and probably cost more to.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:23 AM
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Harley Condra
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Correct.
You can't layup, install and paint a jet airframe with CNC machines. Jet airframes are labor intensive, and are hand made. Every operation with the obvious exception of router and laser cut parts are made by hand.

Most of the parts in our modern turbine engines are made on CNC machines, which lessens the amount of manual labor required. There are only a few parts in our modern turbine engines that are made by conventional methods.
Modern CNC machines reduce labor and make it possible to machine complex parts like the compressor diffusor and 5 axis machined compressors..
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:04 PM
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It does seem like the prices of a turbine went from really high, to low, to high again. The RAM motors were really expensive for the thrust output (for obvious reason at the time). Then the prices started to lower with competition and volume. Most recently the price for nearly the same amount of thrust has been creeping up.( smaller can size and internal devices are what I assumed justified it). I think a lot of people have been waiting for something like Kingtech. More thrust less money.... but quality still there. I personally don't need a super high tech system that cost a few hundred more. I just want reliability and a good price.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:08 PM
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At the risk of sounding somewhat elitist, the high price tags, whether warranted or not, keep most of the riff raff out of the jet world. Can you imagine the carnage if Joe Average modeller could afford a turbine? One only has to read some of the other forums on here to get an idea of what goes on. It wouldn't be long before none of us were allowed to fly them.

The high price tag has the benefit of generally only allowing a well established , mature individual with years of modelling experience being able to afford a turbine. The sting to the pocket book eliminates the inexperienced yahoo's.

Mike
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by luv2flyrc View Post
At the risk of sounding somewhat elitist,
uhhhh yes it does sound elitist. This has been hashed out over the years. the best thing to do is embrace/help new modelers that want to get into jets , DO NOT project ANY elitist vibe and have fun and promote good practices. Mutual support is the key.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_matt View Post
uhhhh yes it does sound elitist. T
Yes, I suppose it does Matt, and I was hesitant to write it but, there is some truth in that you would not want anyone and everyone to be able to afford a turbine.

Mike
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:19 PM
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Matt's right... Good and bad everywhere, turbine guys are no exception. Money doesn't give you more competency.
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