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Kingtech K-210 Qustions

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Old 11-06-2014, 06:28 AM
  #1
gapellegrini
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Default Kingtech K-210 Qustions

Hi to all,

I'm thinking about acquire a new Kingtech K-210 turbine. So I have some questions to turbine users:

1- Have you had any problem with your turbine? It had to be sent to service for some reason?
2- Have you had any flame out? If yes you know the reason?
3- How many hours or flight have you completed?
4- They say 590g or 20oz per minute average flight consumption. Someone know the full trothle consumption? I'm thiking about put it in a BVM F-100 and increase fuel quantity is not an option. Tank size is about 4.8 liters.

Thanks in advance

Gabriel
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Old 11-06-2014, 06:43 AM
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Gabriel I got allot of flights at Kentucky on the new 210. We had a 180 in the plane before Kentucky and switched it at the event. The plane used less fuel with more power then the 180. With a BVM F100 you are not going to be full throttle often. With the F100 it would accelerate going vertical so you will be flying with the throttle back and saving even more fuel.

I have not had any flameouts with the K210.
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Old 11-06-2014, 07:07 AM
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I saw 210's perform flawlessly at BITW. Mine is still in the box so I can't give real world feedback on mine but all the kingtechs I have seen have worked perfectly, my 140 is awesome and has been perfect. The 210 is a no brainer but I would dial back the rpms in a bvm f100, that is a lot of turbine for that size jet. Less rpms will mean even better fuel economy and the turbine is already nice and lite!
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Old 11-06-2014, 07:21 AM
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My friend bought a K-100. He ended up selling it, after spending many hours trying to get it to NOT hotstart automatically w/o success. I liked it because it was small, cheap, light and most components were internal. Unfortunately, we never did figure out how to stop the hotstarts other than operating the manual fuel shut off valve. And yes, the fuel solenoids tested O.K too. I think the new buyer sent it back to the shop for testing/repair.

That being said, I saw a few Kingtechs at MI Jets that worked just fine. They are also typically cheaper. But, you have to send it off a long ways for service.

I have also had a couple troubles when starting my JetCat and ended up shipping it off for weeks getting it serviced (it is still there.). For me, getting something serviced in a timely manner is an issue because of the short flying season. I am "bound" to getting turbines serviced for me because I am a rookie when it comes to disassembling and reassembling turbines and none of the manufacturers provide service level manuals. I would not hesitate to tear down a gasser and have done it many times. I also have learned that JetCat locks the ECU and you cannot change even the simplest of things (on an RXi) plus they give you a manual that does not even apply to your model or show the component arrangement "under the cover."

Given the fact that Wren's shop is only a couple hours away from my home, I am looking closely at Wrens. But they too have been giving us fits trying to get the things to start correctly. Actually, I am building a couple new gassers this winter. The overall "jet experience" is somewhat disappointing and I have over 100 flights and have not crashed one, ... yet.

If your looking at your first turbine powered plane, I suggest looking at a mid-sized trainer. Lots of people make the mistake of wanting to buy just one jet and go right into a large complex warbird, etc. Then they crash it and that gets really expensive and labor intensive to fix. Look for a mid-sized trainer. Once you decide that you like turbines and can fly them well, then look into the warbirds, vipers and bandits, etc. In the long run, you will save a lot of $s and frustration.

Just my personal thoughts after year one of jets!

Last edited by Len Todd; 11-06-2014 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 11-06-2014, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len Todd View Post
My friend bought a K-100. He ended up selling it, after spending many hours trying to get it to NOT hotstart automatically w/o success. I liked it because it was small, cheap, light and most components were internal. Unfortunately, we never did figure out how to stop the hotstarts other than operating the manual fuel shut off valve. And yes, the fuel solenoids tested O.K too. I think the new buyer sent it back to the shop for testing/repair.

That being said, I saw a few Kingtechs at MI Jets that worked just fine. They are also typically cheaper. But, you have to send it off a long ways for service.

I have also had a couple troubles when starting my JetCat and ended up shipping it off for weeks getting it serviced (it is still there.). For me, getting something serviced in a timely manner is an issue because of the short flying season. I am "bound" to getting turbines serviced for me because I am a rookie when it comes to disassembling and reassembling turbines and none of the manufacturers provide service level manuals. I would not hesitate to tear down a gasser and have done it many times. I also have learned that JetCat locks the ECU and you cannot change even the simplest of things (on an RXi) plus they give you a manual that does not even apply to your model or show the component arrangement "under the cover."

Given the fact that Wren's shop is only a couple hours away from my home, I am looking closely at Wrens. But they too have been giving us fits trying to get the things to start correctly. Actually, I am building a couple new gassers this winter. The overall "jet experience" is somewhat disappointing and I have over 100 flights and have not crashed one, ... yet.

If your looking at your first turbine powered plane, I suggest looking at a mid-sized trainer. Lots of people make the mistake of wanting to buy just one jet and go right into a large complex warbird, etc. Then they crash it and that gets really expensive and labor intensive to fix. Look for a mid-sized trainer. Once you decide that you like turbines and can fly them well, then look into the warbirds, vipers and bandits, etc. In the long run, you will save a lot of $s and frustration.

Just my personal thoughts after year one of jets!

California is a long way off???
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Old 11-06-2014, 08:00 AM
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That's what I was thinking.... Drop it in a box and ship it off...... If it's not working right out of the box then something is probably wrong and they will take care if it! Their service is second to none!!
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Old 11-06-2014, 08:53 AM
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Len,

After reading your post and you having problems with KingTech's, Jetcats and I'm sure you will have the same problems with Wren... have you ever thought, maybe it is the user and not the turbines? I don't think California is so far to ship something for service, IF it really needs to be serviced. I have found that most turbines run right out of the box and it is usually a set up issue that makes guys think they need to get into the menu's and start tweaking settings right away when they have no idea what they are tweaking. I personally call for tech support if I have any questions instead of making hap hazard changes hoping to get lucky and fix the issue.

just my .02

Ghostrider 1 out!!
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Old 11-06-2014, 08:59 AM
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not had a single problem with wrens either so maybe something you are doing?
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Old 11-06-2014, 09:03 AM
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What is the full power fuel consumption of the 210? Ounces/minute I mean.
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Old 11-06-2014, 09:17 AM
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Well I just bought one but I don't have the paperwork as it's at my builders, but I was under the impression that the fuel flow numbers mentioned by the OP were @ full power not an average. 20oz. a minute would put in right in line with other 200N class turbines for fuel burn. Not sure how you could even figure that as an average considering all the different models this engine is being installed in and all the different flying styles.
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Old 11-06-2014, 09:18 AM
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Matt the fuel consumption of the K210G is 20.8 oz per minute at full tilt.

Depending on the airframe it's going in it could be turned down and the fuel consumption would increase dramatically.

Gabriel, You can put the K210 into your BVM F-100 and you could turn it down to a 160 size thrust out put which is the most i would recommend using in this airframe. And you could probably get a comfortable 10 minutes of flight out of it.
I'm only saying this from my experience of owning and flying 2 of them over a five year period. I have a Jetcat P-120 in one of them and a Kingtech K140G in the other. They both fly great on this type of power and really don't need much more.

Last edited by Greg Wright; 11-06-2014 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 11-06-2014, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wright View Post
Matt the fuel consumption of the K210G is 20.8 oz per minute at full tilt.

Depending on the airframe it's going in it could be turned down and the fuel consumption would increase dramatically.

Gabriel, You can put the K210 into your BVM F-100 and you could turn it down to a 160 size thrust out put which is the most i would recommend using in this airframe. And you could probably get a comfortable 10 minutes of flight out of it.
I'm only saying this from my experience of owning and flying 2 of them over a five year period. I have a Jetcat P-120 in one of them and a Kingtech K140G in the other. They both fly great on this type of power and really don't need much more.
Greg,

I have seen some of your posts about the BVM F-100 and I know you have a lot of experience. My hun was built by Patrick Frost and has all details 4 scale avaliable Including droguechute, after burner and lighting. The plane is pretty heavy. Patrick did an outsdanding work building it. On hot days in Brazil with full ordnance I need about 600 feet to take off with my old propane start Jet Central Rhino. Needless to say to you that the plane flies much better at high speeds so I do all flight between 70-100% of power with full ordnance. I clocked the maximum speed on this flight and is about 225 mph (There is no speed limitation in Brazil). So I would like to improve take offs and and also some climbing power. As example on loopings when the plane is at the top there is sometimes some wing swing due to low speeds and lost of maneuver precision. What do you think of the 210 to a plane like this?

Thanks for your help

Gabriel
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Old 11-06-2014, 10:40 AM
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My camouflage F-100 is built with all of D4S available parts also and the takeoffs, flight pattern and landings where also using quite a bit of full power with the P-120 i had in it on hot day's and this was the reason for my up-grade to the K140. Now that i have changed it has improved quite a bit in the flight characteristics. I had also thought about putting the K210 into at that time. I think you shouldn't have any problems with this size motor, but at least you know you can always reduce it's thrust to help conserve fuel.
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Old 11-06-2014, 11:23 AM
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I put a K210 as a direct replacement of my 160sx in my Eurosport. I have not used any more fuel than with the 160 during the same flight time.... although I am not at full throttle unless verticle or very short straight an level.

-It starts fast.
-It can eat a lot of bubbles and not flame out( found that out when running it on a test stand)
-Never needed to send it back
-I have just a few hours on it but I liked it well enough to buy my 2nd one and will soon have a 3rd.

The only off thing I would say is that you need to make sure you have your manual fuel valve closed during refuel. The internal valves are not strong enough to fend off the pressure of a fuelling pump. You will get some flames on start if you forget.

You won't be disappointed. It's a beast.
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Old 11-06-2014, 11:51 AM
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Thank you guys for all your help. I will definately get a K-210.
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Old 11-06-2014, 12:54 PM
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Guess my brute honesty stirred up a few Jet Lovers! Anyway, ... to correct your erroneous assumptions, I submit the below:

We have 10 Jet guys in our club.Some of them have been it for several years! When they often come here to fly, I have been out there with them. I have been to several airshows with them including MI Jets and other Jet type shows/rallies. I also hung with several of them a year before I bought mine. What I relayed to you about Kingtech and Wren is not my direct personal experience, but experiences I have witnessed and help troubleshoot with experienced guys. My point being: How come several of these other turbines failed out of the box for several different people? Out of the box failures do not contribute to a good jet experience. Guess some folks missed that!

My turbine is a Jetcat P-90 rxi. Basically, you can't change anything in the ECU that matters. It did not work right out of the box. (i.e.Flaming/chugging starts and chronic over-current errors! ) Several folks told me not to send it in until after flying season because it always did eventually get past the start and run well. I was told: "If I sent it in I would not see it for months!" And they may be right, It has been 3+ weeks and I am still counting and it is still sitting on JC's bench! Now,... I am told the ECU has failed and they are waiting for new ones to arrive, Which I maybe could understand, ... except for they are the primary supplier and they do not stock ECUs?? But, ... Maybe that is normal for turbine parts? I ask you: How does this contribute to a good Jet Experience?

As far as my personal "Customer Experience": For months I was not able to raise Jetcat. (i.e. many unanswered emails and un-returned phone messages). Then when I did finally get hold of them, I was told my starts were normal, even though I posted a video and I have a s-load of comments from experienced turbine people telling me what WE were seeing was not normal. At the very least of it, how can chronic over-current errors be normal? Is this a good experience yet?

How can it be my tinkering that is the problem when you can not tinker with an RXi's ECU? Also, there is no applicable documentation available for the P-90RXI. No instruction how to even clean the starter o-Ring! But they sure tell you you may need to clean it. I also had one of the most experienced turbine guys around at a jet rally look it over and try to change a couple parameters to no avail. It took one of our experienced guys to eventually call Bob W. who apparently called John R. to even get JC talking to me! And, then I was told the reason John was upset with me is because I did not contact him directly! ?? Definitely not a good Jet Experience for this rookie.

Why can't a manufacturer produce a manual that even pertains to your specific turbine? At least that way you can learn to take care of it yourself! When I recently read the Xicoy manual to help troubleshoot, I was shocked at how much they tell you compared to what I got for the JC. The Xicoy manual is far superior to what I have seen for my turbine. At the very least, they got the right manual for the right model! There is hope for the industry yet!

Yes CA is comparably a long ways off: 9 days when you send the lipos with it. And, ... eventually 9 days back. And now, ... it has been in the hands of Jet cat for over two weeks! Like I said before a couple hours drive to Wren is starting to look good comparatively. And, ... Ron, at Wren, explains to you what he is doing as he does it as you stand there watching! There is more hope for the turbine industry yet!

Like I said I am a rookie here. But given the B.S. I have personally gone thru and seen dumped on others, the "Jet Experience" leaves a lot to be desired. So for those of you that think it is this particular operator. You are wrong! I have been patient. I did not tinker with the ECU. And, ... I have enough mechanical and electronics experience to know when something like a turbine is not working correctly! And, ... If you think what I have experienced this year is a good "jet experience," let me tell you, you are in the minority! I have had far better experiences with other aspects of the RC plane hobby. At least with these others, I can fix the problem myself!
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Old 11-06-2014, 01:49 PM
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With the service that Barry provides at Kingtech and the quality of their engines you can't go wrong!! Buy that K210!!
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Old 11-06-2014, 01:52 PM
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12 jetcats ( P70;80;90;120;140;180 ), 1 of ours P80 had turbine wheel failure, wren54ss ( problem on combustion chamber, we change it and, runs it for 60 hs, flawless ), 1 RTI2800 amazing engine solid like a rock!!
I want buy an KT 140 G.
all engines are great today!!!

jose

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Old 11-06-2014, 01:58 PM
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In time, some jetcats have had 100 hs of run time, change bearings one time


jose
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Old 11-06-2014, 05:52 PM
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I have close to 20 flights on my 210. It's running great! Can't go wrong for sure. Very good fuel consumption. Great customer service !

Last edited by braza; 11-06-2014 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:51 PM
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I put the first 3 flights on my Skymaster Hawk with the Kingtech 210. It was fantastic. Great throttle response, I don't need much speed Pryor to pulling verticle maneuvers. On the straight and level it was half throttle mainly, never over 3/4 unless I'm pulling up. The power felt linear from idle to full throttle.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:19 PM
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quist. can you tell me you pipe diameter please
ken
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