New JetsMunt VT-80 BL
#103
Gaspar has said in other posts that he doesn't recommend diesel and that best is Kero (K-1) or JetA.... I personally use Kerosine (K-1) clear with no added dye, BUT one of my friends is using diesel in his M140XBL with no problem. Keep in mind that this is California diesel and from what I have been told its slightly more refined...
#104
If you go to their website they state that diesel is permitted and they are still in the testing mode but claim ( in Spain) that diesel takes a little longer on start-up and a little loss of power. So ? Yet in Australia they ( dealers too) have been using diesel for several years now and don't appear to be having any problems or issues. If you go to some other manufacturers they tend to use less oil mix by a percent or two ; so don't know if this might be a lower power result with 5% oil mix as diesel is supposed to have more lubricating qualities. Go figure. Most others have approved diesel pretty much. No argument from me that kerosene or Jet fuel is better as little or no additives.
All diesel fuel for trucks and cars have switched to the low sulphur type several years ago and this was due to the CA emission laws. They were the first to get the higher refined fuel and should now be available all over because of diesel engine manufacture. That is the reason the Smart Car discontinued their diesel engine for sale in North America because they didn't want to spend the money on research on their diesel.banger to meet emissions. That's the way I hear it but we will probably hear different from some of the Experts !
All diesel fuel for trucks and cars have switched to the low sulphur type several years ago and this was due to the CA emission laws. They were the first to get the higher refined fuel and should now be available all over because of diesel engine manufacture. That is the reason the Smart Car discontinued their diesel engine for sale in North America because they didn't want to spend the money on research on their diesel.banger to meet emissions. That's the way I hear it but we will probably hear different from some of the Experts !
Last edited by stegl; 01-28-2015 at 06:34 PM.
#105
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arenys de Munt- BARCELONA, SPAIN
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Comments regarding Diesel and JM engines:
1) There isn't any mechanical problem in to use Diesel on JM engines. Engine wear, life, etc, will be the same, JetsMunt have plenty of customers using Diesel. Power and EGT is about the same, all differences found are inside of normal measuring tolerances.
2) My PERSONAL recommendation when asked is to use Kero when possible. The reason is that kero burns faster and ignites at lower temperature, so when the combustion chamber is cold (startup and acceleration from low RPM) the kero burns in much higher percentage than the diesel. in practical operation, this means that using diesel, the startup time is longer, more smoke and flames on the exhaust (caused by the fuel not burned in the right place of the combustion chamber) , and similar symptoms in acceleration. My test have been done with local diesel, but from customer reports it seems that there are big differences around the world, it seems that customers living in cold places are happier with his local diesel performance.
The above differences, added to the smell, cause that the engine appear to run worse than it could on my eyes, so for my planes I prefer the best overall performance. And here comes the personal preferences, some guys are happy with a engine that just start and run, don't care about the dirt, smell or flames at all, and these guys will state you that there isn't any difference, while others (like me) will be not happy if they say a slight difference. So always when asked I recommend to try diesel. If you are happy, use it. If not, go back to kero!
Gaspar
1) There isn't any mechanical problem in to use Diesel on JM engines. Engine wear, life, etc, will be the same, JetsMunt have plenty of customers using Diesel. Power and EGT is about the same, all differences found are inside of normal measuring tolerances.
2) My PERSONAL recommendation when asked is to use Kero when possible. The reason is that kero burns faster and ignites at lower temperature, so when the combustion chamber is cold (startup and acceleration from low RPM) the kero burns in much higher percentage than the diesel. in practical operation, this means that using diesel, the startup time is longer, more smoke and flames on the exhaust (caused by the fuel not burned in the right place of the combustion chamber) , and similar symptoms in acceleration. My test have been done with local diesel, but from customer reports it seems that there are big differences around the world, it seems that customers living in cold places are happier with his local diesel performance.
The above differences, added to the smell, cause that the engine appear to run worse than it could on my eyes, so for my planes I prefer the best overall performance. And here comes the personal preferences, some guys are happy with a engine that just start and run, don't care about the dirt, smell or flames at all, and these guys will state you that there isn't any difference, while others (like me) will be not happy if they say a slight difference. So always when asked I recommend to try diesel. If you are happy, use it. If not, go back to kero!
Gaspar
#109
Excellent engine stegl... did you get the VT80 or the VT80BL??.... Even though I don't have any VT80's myself I see and monitor 3 of them at my field. The fuel efficiency is great... Congratulations on your purchase...
#110
Brushless pump is the only way it is available now. Yes have heard very good things with all the Jets Munt turbines. Would have liked the 100 for my Boomer Sprint but the extra $500 usd was more than what I had in the pocket At this time.
thanks
thanks
#111
My Feedback: (2)
I know this is VT80 thread but since there was a diesel discussion I would like to share my personal experience with diesel#2 in a JM M140x. This is California diesel #2 from a new shell station that just opened. The following is mostly subjective observation.
The start up seemed to take a bit longer with smoke coming out of the tail pipe. Once the diesel ignites and the engine reaches idle RPM (35K), there is a lot of popping. Once stable at 35K RPM there is intermittent popping. The acceleration from idle to up to mid throttle (not sure of RPM) there was additional popping and "roughness". From mid throttle to full there is no difference between kero and diesel as far as I could tell by sound. EGT were all pretty much the same as Kero hovering around 580-610C. There was no point that it sounded like the engine will flame out. It just sounds "rough" when idling and accelerating from idle to half throttle on a linear curve set on the ECU. During flight I was not able to tell the difference as far as thrust and acceleration authority. I did notice occasional mild and hardly noticeable smoke trail that lasted one second or less after a split S or a roll but this was not consistent. Flight time was slightly longer with more fuel remaining in the tank after about 6 min flight. I also have fuel telemetry which showed 40% fuel remaining after 6 min as opposed to about 30% with Kero. I had about 4 flights with diesel so these numbers may be within flying style error so I can't say for sure if it's more efficient with diesel. Shut down produced significant smoke. I have not made a final decision if I will continue to fly with diesel or switch back to Kero. Jury is still out.
The start up seemed to take a bit longer with smoke coming out of the tail pipe. Once the diesel ignites and the engine reaches idle RPM (35K), there is a lot of popping. Once stable at 35K RPM there is intermittent popping. The acceleration from idle to up to mid throttle (not sure of RPM) there was additional popping and "roughness". From mid throttle to full there is no difference between kero and diesel as far as I could tell by sound. EGT were all pretty much the same as Kero hovering around 580-610C. There was no point that it sounded like the engine will flame out. It just sounds "rough" when idling and accelerating from idle to half throttle on a linear curve set on the ECU. During flight I was not able to tell the difference as far as thrust and acceleration authority. I did notice occasional mild and hardly noticeable smoke trail that lasted one second or less after a split S or a roll but this was not consistent. Flight time was slightly longer with more fuel remaining in the tank after about 6 min flight. I also have fuel telemetry which showed 40% fuel remaining after 6 min as opposed to about 30% with Kero. I had about 4 flights with diesel so these numbers may be within flying style error so I can't say for sure if it's more efficient with diesel. Shut down produced significant smoke. I have not made a final decision if I will continue to fly with diesel or switch back to Kero. Jury is still out.
Last edited by DrV; 02-10-2015 at 10:24 PM.
#112
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I have the VT80 original, and I love the way this engine handles. I've clocked
the start many times and always it's about 40 seconds to running. The support that
Todd has given me is excellent.
hmarmaizmd717
the start many times and always it's about 40 seconds to running. The support that
Todd has given me is excellent.
hmarmaizmd717
#113
DrV...... Did a Google and difference between #2 diesel and #1 diesel is that 2 is lower in sulphur content. Kerosene and aircraft jet fuel are very similar in content except jet is filtered better. Could be in Austrailia were diesel use is common ; they may be using #1 . You will get many differing views , but as Gaspar says ... Try it and if your supply works well ; fine to use. Kerosene also smells less but again that will be in the nose of the beholder.
Yes , all the JM turbines seem to be the little engine that said... " I think I can, I think I can.... finally I did , I did " just like the "Little Red Train Story !" LOL.... All to often the little guy can put as good or better a product as the big guys.
Yes , all the JM turbines seem to be the little engine that said... " I think I can, I think I can.... finally I did , I did " just like the "Little Red Train Story !" LOL.... All to often the little guy can put as good or better a product as the big guys.
Last edited by stegl; 02-11-2015 at 08:04 AM.
#115
Thread Starter
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18415532
#116
Just bear in mind that un-burned diesel micro particle is one of the most carcinogenic thing you can breath.
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18415532
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18415532
DrV... welcome back to Kerosine use.... "why would you use 87 octane in your Ferrari while the manufacture recommends 91 octane"...
#117
And an unburned kerosene particle is not ? Any testing on that ? What about turbine oil ? At the end of the article it said that the hazard from unburned diesel was a fraction of what cig. smoking does to ones health.
also mention that low sulphur diesel was the effort used to clean up the air in diesel power auto and truck engines.......no testing done with model turbine engines yet !
Gaspars recommendation are from his experience using diesel that was available to him. He also said that try it and if it works for someone then it's use is fine as it has no mechanical effect on his JM turbines. From reports in Austrailia they have been have good results with using diesel with no running issues....... So if the shoe fits , wear it I guess !
also mention that low sulphur diesel was the effort used to clean up the air in diesel power auto and truck engines.......no testing done with model turbine engines yet !
Gaspars recommendation are from his experience using diesel that was available to him. He also said that try it and if it works for someone then it's use is fine as it has no mechanical effect on his JM turbines. From reports in Austrailia they have been have good results with using diesel with no running issues....... So if the shoe fits , wear it I guess !
Last edited by stegl; 02-11-2015 at 05:51 PM.
#118
My Feedback: (2)
Breathing city air is carcinogenic especially in Los angeles where we live. What about the water we drink? Every single aspect of our modern lives deals with some sort of carcinogen no matter how "organic" you think you eat/drink or breath. My point is my choice of fuel will depend on other subjective reasons as long as it does not cause damage to the turbine or its components. I'm not so concerned about carcinogenic properties of partially burned deisel during startup or shut down. The exposure is relatively minimal compared to other daily exposures to chemicals/substances. Local pump kerosine also smokes on startup and shut down. I'm fairly certain that the carcinogenic properties are similar to deisel since these fuels are very close to each other as far as composition.
#119
Thread Starter
#120
My Feedback: (53)
Wow the Internet never seize to amaze me with statement like these! I was going to get one of those but now I'm getting a Kingtech and will run it on Diesel!
#121
Thread Starter
Turbine oil is an extremely dangerous product when burned. It releses neuro toxines called organo-phosphates.
http://www.ewhn-riga.org/conferencer...g%20slides.pdf
This is why the said turbines above have been developped to run on 2 stroke oil JASCO FC which is designed to be burned.
We extremely highly recommend using the above engines with these oils to preserve hobbyist and spectators health.
http://www.ewhn-riga.org/conferencer...g%20slides.pdf
This is why the said turbines above have been developped to run on 2 stroke oil JASCO FC which is designed to be burned.
We extremely highly recommend using the above engines with these oils to preserve hobbyist and spectators health.
#122
Turbine oil is an extremely dangerous product when burned. It releses neuro toxines called organo-phosphates.
http://www.ewhn-riga.org/conferencer...g%20slides.pdf
This is why the said turbines above have been developped to run on 2 stroke oil JASCO FC which is designed to be burned.
We extremely highly recommend using the above engines with these oils to preserve hobbyist and spectators health.
http://www.ewhn-riga.org/conferencer...g%20slides.pdf
This is why the said turbines above have been developped to run on 2 stroke oil JASCO FC which is designed to be burned.
We extremely highly recommend using the above engines with these oils to preserve hobbyist and spectators health.
but my understanding is turbine oil us more of a health risk. I plan on using Mobil DTE and will initially be going with kerosene but will try
going with bulk as soon as I can find a source. 2T synthetic Jasco FC or FD would be my alternate choice as backup. wonder what they use in
King Tech turbines as their propriety oil ?
#124
My Feedback: (53)
Turbine oil is an extremely dangerous product when burned. It releses neuro toxines called organo-phosphates.
http://www.ewhn-riga.org/conferencer...g%20slides.pdf
This is why the said turbines above have been developped to run on 2 stroke oil JASCO FC which is designed to be burned.
We extremely highly recommend using the above engines with these oils to preserve hobbyist and spectators health.
http://www.ewhn-riga.org/conferencer...g%20slides.pdf
This is why the said turbines above have been developped to run on 2 stroke oil JASCO FC which is designed to be burned.
We extremely highly recommend using the above engines with these oils to preserve hobbyist and spectators health.
Well you need to actually read the attachment.....the danger is from bleed air and I would add engine driven compressor (ADC) I was a military FE for 25 years + and breath that type of air for all my flying...that's the danger, what come out oil wise out of a full size jet engine is very little since we don't burn oil like in RC, from experience gearbox are were we usually loose oil.
Looking forward to my Kingtech!
#125
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Just bear in mind that un-burned diesel micro particle is one of the most carcinogenic thing you can breath.
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18415532
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-18415532