How do I get a Turbine Waiver if I Can't Fly a Turbine without One?
11-20-2014, 02:19 PM
#1
How do I get a Turbine Waiver if I Can't Fly a Turbine without One?
Hi,
I've got an old CJM F-100 that I've dug out of the box and would like to complete. My idea was to put a small turbine in it and use this as a trainer of sorts, allowing me to get into jet modeling without the expense of buying a new kit.
My idea was to just put in a ducted fan and use the plane to get my waiver and then put in the turbine after that. I will make the modifications to the structure as necessary for the turbine so when I'm ready I can change out the engine and go.
MY question is can I just skip that step and go straight turbine power or do I need to do the ducted fan route first?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Brian
I've got an old CJM F-100 that I've dug out of the box and would like to complete. My idea was to put a small turbine in it and use this as a trainer of sorts, allowing me to get into jet modeling without the expense of buying a new kit.
My idea was to just put in a ducted fan and use the plane to get my waiver and then put in the turbine after that. I will make the modifications to the structure as necessary for the turbine so when I'm ready I can change out the engine and go.
MY question is can I just skip that step and go straight turbine power or do I need to do the ducted fan route first?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Brian
11-20-2014, 03:20 PM
#3
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I'm just starting the path of getting a turbine waiver too. Looking at AMA document 510-A which describes how to get the turbine waiver, it only says you should have at least 50 flights with a high performance model before you can be an applicant. It defines a high performance model as one that can fly at sustained speeds of 100 mph or more, so even a fast enough prop plane should count. At least that's how I read it. So perhaps you don't have to go through the trouble of converting your F-100?
11-20-2014, 03:45 PM
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Brian,
I suggest that you visit the AMA website: www.modelaircraft.org and download the document tab pertaining to turbines: Doc # 510-A to ...
The current regulations stipulate that you must perform the waiver flight qualification with a turbine powered model, not with a ducted fan model as in the past. You can, however, fly a ducted fan powered model to gain proficiency with jet powered models. The DF can be either glow or EDF. There's a prerequisite of 50 flights with a high performance model and a DF powered CJM F-100 would qualify. You can then convert the model for turbine power and take the waiver qualification with this. If you already feel proficient with a high performance model you can go directly to the turbine waiver qualification using a buddy box and a waivered pilot as the master. Once the waivered master feels that you are ready for the qual flight then you can perform flight test and submit the paperwork to AMA for the waiver. Your next 5 turbine flights should be supervised by a current waiver holder and there's some restrictions on twin turbines and speed limits. This is all defined in the turbine regs on the AMA website. Contact some local waiver holders for further information on all this.
I also recommend that you obtain the June 2014 copy of "Model Aviation" magazine for a Beginners Guide to Turbine Jets authored by Peter Goldsmith. These's some good info in this article. Good luck and welcome to the jet world.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, AMA CD and Fixed Wing Waiver # 2570
I suggest that you visit the AMA website: www.modelaircraft.org and download the document tab pertaining to turbines: Doc # 510-A to ...
The current regulations stipulate that you must perform the waiver flight qualification with a turbine powered model, not with a ducted fan model as in the past. You can, however, fly a ducted fan powered model to gain proficiency with jet powered models. The DF can be either glow or EDF. There's a prerequisite of 50 flights with a high performance model and a DF powered CJM F-100 would qualify. You can then convert the model for turbine power and take the waiver qualification with this. If you already feel proficient with a high performance model you can go directly to the turbine waiver qualification using a buddy box and a waivered pilot as the master. Once the waivered master feels that you are ready for the qual flight then you can perform flight test and submit the paperwork to AMA for the waiver. Your next 5 turbine flights should be supervised by a current waiver holder and there's some restrictions on twin turbines and speed limits. This is all defined in the turbine regs on the AMA website. Contact some local waiver holders for further information on all this.
I also recommend that you obtain the June 2014 copy of "Model Aviation" magazine for a Beginners Guide to Turbine Jets authored by Peter Goldsmith. These's some good info in this article. Good luck and welcome to the jet world.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, AMA CD and Fixed Wing Waiver # 2570
11-20-2014, 04:29 PM
#5
I can do you one better. First, do as suggested, download and read the documents from AMA site. Get AMA (if you have not already). Join American Turf Flyers club. Now you have an in-house Turbine CD who can grant your turbine waiver. And you have a bunch of good guys (turbine pilots) who are always glad to assist you in any way, tons of information. You will also have access to a turbine club trainer on a buddy box, I think its a Boomerang Sprint.
There are about 10 or 11 guys at that field with their waivers. When I get mine next year I will be #12 or #13 in the area. I am a member of Turf but mainly fly at Gluedobbers, will be the 2nd turbine guy at that field.
I bought a Shokjet this summer, currently going thru it, needs some TLC. I have to keep reminding myself that its only a trainer, does not need to be in pristine shape (I'm anal like that).
You cannot ask for a better situation for getting into turbines. I'm sure one of the local guys will chime in here and give you detailed information. Feel free to ask me anything you want just pm me for email.
Wild
There are about 10 or 11 guys at that field with their waivers. When I get mine next year I will be #12 or #13 in the area. I am a member of Turf but mainly fly at Gluedobbers, will be the 2nd turbine guy at that field.
I bought a Shokjet this summer, currently going thru it, needs some TLC. I have to keep reminding myself that its only a trainer, does not need to be in pristine shape (I'm anal like that).
You cannot ask for a better situation for getting into turbines. I'm sure one of the local guys will chime in here and give you detailed information. Feel free to ask me anything you want just pm me for email.
Wild
11-20-2014, 04:47 PM
#6
HERE is how I got mine..
I bought my first Turbine jet, I went to the field when the turbine pilots were there, and introduced myself, and told them I was wanting to transition into the turbines, I asked lots of questions, to them, and on this forum. Once I was done building it. I had been talking to another turbine pilot who is a member of my field but lives in Austin. He told me the next time they were coming to the field. Once that weekend came, I loaded up and met up with him and multiple others. I then assembled my jet (F-16) and asked everyone of them to look it over and see if there were any problems..
There were a few suggestions, but no problems. I then fueled it, checked the batteries, did my range check, and had it ready to fly. Then I had one of the best turbine pilots in Texas fly it. He put a flight on it everything was trimmed, all good no problems. After landing it, I talked with him some more. And the Next flight I had him stand beside me and coach me while I flew it, I got a good flight in, landed it everyone was happy. I talked with him again, and then Had him and another waiver holder as well as about 5 other waiver holders watch me on my next flight, I did what was asked of me as far as flying, got a great landing, and taxied it in. After the flight they had me show them I knew my failsafes on the Jet, asked me questions of how to deal with a hotstart, flame out, ETC.. making sure I know what I am supposed to. Then they signed me off, Great group of people, and more supportive than I ever imagined.
The first thing you need to do, is find a trusted waiver holder in your area, take some time out and talk to them, and they will help get you on the right track.
I bought my first Turbine jet, I went to the field when the turbine pilots were there, and introduced myself, and told them I was wanting to transition into the turbines, I asked lots of questions, to them, and on this forum. Once I was done building it. I had been talking to another turbine pilot who is a member of my field but lives in Austin. He told me the next time they were coming to the field. Once that weekend came, I loaded up and met up with him and multiple others. I then assembled my jet (F-16) and asked everyone of them to look it over and see if there were any problems..
There were a few suggestions, but no problems. I then fueled it, checked the batteries, did my range check, and had it ready to fly. Then I had one of the best turbine pilots in Texas fly it. He put a flight on it everything was trimmed, all good no problems. After landing it, I talked with him some more. And the Next flight I had him stand beside me and coach me while I flew it, I got a good flight in, landed it everyone was happy. I talked with him again, and then Had him and another waiver holder as well as about 5 other waiver holders watch me on my next flight, I did what was asked of me as far as flying, got a great landing, and taxied it in. After the flight they had me show them I knew my failsafes on the Jet, asked me questions of how to deal with a hotstart, flame out, ETC.. making sure I know what I am supposed to. Then they signed me off, Great group of people, and more supportive than I ever imagined.
The first thing you need to do, is find a trusted waiver holder in your area, take some time out and talk to them, and they will help get you on the right track.
Last edited by raron455; 11-22-2014 at 07:40 AM.
11-21-2014, 09:05 AM
#8
Thanks everyone for all the helpful advice, I feel like I'm on the right track now.
I'm thinking of posting a build thread on converting the CJM F-100 to turbine power. I'm sure you guys will be able to help out on what I should do.
Wild, I'll send you a PM, thanks for the help. Good to know someone in my area. I'm also a Glue Dobber member as well.
Brian
I'm thinking of posting a build thread on converting the CJM F-100 to turbine power. I'm sure you guys will be able to help out on what I should do.
Wild, I'll send you a PM, thanks for the help. Good to know someone in my area. I'm also a Glue Dobber member as well.
Brian
11-21-2014, 12:44 PM
#9
Ummm..... AMA rules only apply to sanctioned flying sites, got anywhere to practice that isn't a sanctioned field like we use a dry lake bed seen in my avatar pic? Now I'm not saying you shouldn't go find yourself a mentor or two for this project, there's a lot to learn but the old buddy box rule has out lived it's usefulness with the sophisticated radio equipment we use now. Unless someone has exactly the same radio as you and is willing to program your model into it and buddy box you, it's probably not going to happen. It isn't like learning to fly where they give you a couple of controls and you scare yourself to death the first time it's turned toward you.....
11-21-2014, 01:04 PM
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Zeeb,
As a clarification, the AMA Turbine Regulations apply to AMA members wherever they operate a turbine. Also, there's no such term as a "AMA sanctioned flying site" as the AMA only sanctions events and their primary insurance covers AMA chartered club fields.
I strongly recommend that Brian, or any prospective turbine pilot, seek experienced waiver holders to mentor their introduction and flight training with a turbine powered model. The sucess rate is far better with this method as opposed to teaching oneself at some remote location. I'm not stating that one can self-teach themselves to safely operate and fly a turbine jet but the odds are far better with a mentor program. This has been my experience over many years and I'm sure other turbine pilots will agree.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, AMA CD and Fixed Wing Turbine Holder # 2570
As a clarification, the AMA Turbine Regulations apply to AMA members wherever they operate a turbine. Also, there's no such term as a "AMA sanctioned flying site" as the AMA only sanctions events and their primary insurance covers AMA chartered club fields.
I strongly recommend that Brian, or any prospective turbine pilot, seek experienced waiver holders to mentor their introduction and flight training with a turbine powered model. The sucess rate is far better with this method as opposed to teaching oneself at some remote location. I'm not stating that one can self-teach themselves to safely operate and fly a turbine jet but the odds are far better with a mentor program. This has been my experience over many years and I'm sure other turbine pilots will agree.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, AMA CD and Fixed Wing Turbine Holder # 2570
11-21-2014, 02:50 PM
#13
Ummm..... AMA rules only apply to sanctioned flying sites, got anywhere to practice that isn't a sanctioned field like we use a dry lake bed seen in my avatar pic? Now I'm not saying you shouldn't go find yourself a mentor or two for this project, there's a lot to learn but the old buddy box rule has out lived it's usefulness with the sophisticated radio equipment we use now. Unless someone has exactly the same radio as you and is willing to program your model into it and buddy box you, it's probably not going to happen. It isn't like learning to fly where they give you a couple of controls and you scare yourself to death the first time it's turned toward you.....
Art is right, anytime you operate a turbine, you are under AMA regulations.. I don't believe anyone should just go out on their own,even with a cheap foamie,, Iam an instructor at my field , and our goal is to help others so they can enjoy the hobby, and not destroy their planes, I have seen people try it, most of the time it ends up in pieces. To be honest When I learned to fly I taught myself with a simulator, and it cost me some planes. Please fly with a fellow turbine pilot, the coaching can be INVALUABLE,, there are certain aspects that only apply to turbine aircraft ,, For instance,, If you are coming in for a landing, setup, chop down the throttle, and as you get close to touchdown you notice you are short,,, you cant just simply punch it and get out of that situation as you can a prop plane, you have to wait for the turbine to spool up, could be 5+seconds, and then you need to plane to get moving again. You have to be thinking ahead with a turbine jet, If you have help, you will have support there to help with advice that can save your plane,, that's just my two cents,
Last edited by raron455; 11-21-2014 at 02:54 PM.
11-21-2014, 03:53 PM
#14
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Hey Bc, Jump on into the jet world. As Wildnloose mentioned above, we have a number of members at American Turf Flyers who fly jets and would be glad to help you get into turbines. I personally have 4 turbines including the trainer that was mentioned above. Would be more than happy to help you as would several others in the Tulsa Jet community. There isn't any magic in jets -- but you do have to take the time and learn the overall systems and how you interact with them. And, at least from my personal perspective -- there aren't many shortcuts to getting proficient to turbine flying.
11-21-2014, 09:07 PM
#17
I don't agree with this advice,,
Art is right, anytime you operate a turbine, you are under AMA regulations.. I don't believe anyone should just go out on their own,even with a cheap foamie,, Iam an instructor at my field , and our goal is to help others so they can enjoy the hobby, and not destroy their planes, I have seen people try it, most of the time it ends up in pieces. To be honest When I learned to fly I taught myself with a simulator, and it cost me some planes. Please fly with a fellow turbine pilot, the coaching can be INVALUABLE,, there are certain aspects that only apply to turbine aircraft ,, For instance,, If you are coming in for a landing, setup, chop down the throttle, and as you get close to touchdown you notice you are short,,, you cant just simply punch it and get out of that situation as you can a prop plane, you have to wait for the turbine to spool up, could be 5+seconds, and then you need to plane to get moving again. You have to be thinking ahead with a turbine jet, If you have help, you will have support there to help with advice that can save your plane,, that's just my two cents,
Art is right, anytime you operate a turbine, you are under AMA regulations.. I don't believe anyone should just go out on their own,even with a cheap foamie,, Iam an instructor at my field , and our goal is to help others so they can enjoy the hobby, and not destroy their planes, I have seen people try it, most of the time it ends up in pieces. To be honest When I learned to fly I taught myself with a simulator, and it cost me some planes. Please fly with a fellow turbine pilot, the coaching can be INVALUABLE,, there are certain aspects that only apply to turbine aircraft ,, For instance,, If you are coming in for a landing, setup, chop down the throttle, and as you get close to touchdown you notice you are short,,, you cant just simply punch it and get out of that situation as you can a prop plane, you have to wait for the turbine to spool up, could be 5+seconds, and then you need to plane to get moving again. You have to be thinking ahead with a turbine jet, If you have help, you will have support there to help with advice that can save your plane,, that's just my two cents,
In Aus. as long as you have the land owners permission, you can fly whatever/where ever you want, including jets. But unless you have your own insurance, it would get very messy if there was an incident where there was personal injury or property damage. You do not have to be a member of the MAAA, or be at a MAAA affiliated flying site, but there are numerous benefits being a member of a national body and club, such as insurance and plenty of help and advice.
I am a member of the MAAA and a number of clubs and highly recommend anyone to join up, but just wondering if there is a law or rule in the US, that says you MUST be a AMA member to fly jets. If so, it's different than here.
Just curious.
11-21-2014, 10:02 PM
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HERE is how I got mine..
I bought my first Turbine jet, I went to the field when the turbine pilots were there, and introduced myself, and told them I was wanting to transition into the turbines, I asked lots of questions, to them, and on this forum. Once I was done building it. I had been talking to another turbine pilot who is a member of my field but lives in Austin. He told me the next time they were coming to the field. Once that weekend came, I loaded up and met up with him and multiple others. I then assembled my jet (F-16) and asked everyone of them to look it over and see if there were any problems..
There were a few suggestions, but no problems. I then fueled it, checked the batteries, did my range check, and had it ready to fly. Then I had one of the best turbine pilots in Texas fly it. He put a flight on it everything was trimmed, all good no problems. After landing it, I talked with him some more. And the Next flight I had him stand beside me and coach me while I flew it, I got a good flight in, landed it everyone was happy. I talked with him again, and then Had him and another waiver holder as well as about 5 other waiver holders watch me on my next flight, I did what was asked of me as far as flying, got a great landing, and taxied it in. After the flight they had me show them I knew my failsafes on the Jet, asked me questions of how to deal with a hotstart, flame out, ETC.. making sure I know what I am supposed to. Then they signed me off, Great group of people, and more supportive than I ever imagined.
The first thing you need to do, is find a trusted waiver holder in your area, take some time out and talk to them, and they will help get you on the right track.
Now thinking about my first Experience,, Thank you to the Ellzey's , Bob-O, Craig, and Ron,, You guys are Awesome,,,,
I bought my first Turbine jet, I went to the field when the turbine pilots were there, and introduced myself, and told them I was wanting to transition into the turbines, I asked lots of questions, to them, and on this forum. Once I was done building it. I had been talking to another turbine pilot who is a member of my field but lives in Austin. He told me the next time they were coming to the field. Once that weekend came, I loaded up and met up with him and multiple others. I then assembled my jet (F-16) and asked everyone of them to look it over and see if there were any problems..
There were a few suggestions, but no problems. I then fueled it, checked the batteries, did my range check, and had it ready to fly. Then I had one of the best turbine pilots in Texas fly it. He put a flight on it everything was trimmed, all good no problems. After landing it, I talked with him some more. And the Next flight I had him stand beside me and coach me while I flew it, I got a good flight in, landed it everyone was happy. I talked with him again, and then Had him and another waiver holder as well as about 5 other waiver holders watch me on my next flight, I did what was asked of me as far as flying, got a great landing, and taxied it in. After the flight they had me show them I knew my failsafes on the Jet, asked me questions of how to deal with a hotstart, flame out, ETC.. making sure I know what I am supposed to. Then they signed me off, Great group of people, and more supportive than I ever imagined.
The first thing you need to do, is find a trusted waiver holder in your area, take some time out and talk to them, and they will help get you on the right track.
Now thinking about my first Experience,, Thank you to the Ellzey's , Bob-O, Craig, and Ron,, You guys are Awesome,,,,
11-21-2014, 10:14 PM
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11-22-2014, 02:57 AM
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drac1,
In the USA, most aeromodelers are AMA members to be covered by their insurance and to belong to an AMA chartered club. As a condition of AMA membership all must agree to abide by the AMA Safety Code. The AMA Turbine Regulations are part of this safety code. A turbine waiver is part of the regulations and therefore falls under the AMA Safety Code. Any individual that is NOT an AMA member may operate turbines at their own risk and liability. However, any unsafe operation and/or resulting accident affects all jet modelers- similar to unregulated FPV operation. The AMA Turbine Safety Regulations and procedures have been developed over many years and proven to effective in conducting safe operation of turbine powered models. The waiver portion establishes a level of proficiency in the flying and operation of these models. It basically comes down to managing the risk associated with model turbines.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
In the USA, most aeromodelers are AMA members to be covered by their insurance and to belong to an AMA chartered club. As a condition of AMA membership all must agree to abide by the AMA Safety Code. The AMA Turbine Regulations are part of this safety code. A turbine waiver is part of the regulations and therefore falls under the AMA Safety Code. Any individual that is NOT an AMA member may operate turbines at their own risk and liability. However, any unsafe operation and/or resulting accident affects all jet modelers- similar to unregulated FPV operation. The AMA Turbine Safety Regulations and procedures have been developed over many years and proven to effective in conducting safe operation of turbine powered models. The waiver portion establishes a level of proficiency in the flying and operation of these models. It basically comes down to managing the risk associated with model turbines.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
11-22-2014, 08:17 AM
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Buddy boxes are NOT outdated. Modern radios don't require the second one to be set up exactly like the master. A slave mode can usually be selected where the student only has control of the stick movements. This allows the student to fly the airplane and get used to the speed, traffic pattern, approaches etc. Wireless buddy boxes are also becoming very popular.
Most pilots wanting a Turbine waiver will be using a modern, probably higher end, radio. They will aslo probably be using what the local fliers use. This all makes it much easier to do.
Most pilots wanting a Turbine waiver will be using a modern, probably higher end, radio. They will aslo probably be using what the local fliers use. This all makes it much easier to do.
11-22-2014, 02:21 PM
#24
drac1,
In the USA, most aeromodelers are AMA members to be covered by their insurance and to belong to an AMA chartered club. As a condition of AMA membership all must agree to abide by the AMA Safety Code. The AMA Turbine Regulations are part of this safety code. A turbine waiver is part of the regulations and therefore falls under the AMA Safety Code. Any individual that is NOT an AMA member may operate turbines at their own risk and liability. However, any unsafe operation and/or resulting accident affects all jet modelers- similar to unregulated FPV operation. The AMA Turbine Safety Regulations and procedures have been developed over many years and proven to effective in conducting safe operation of turbine powered models. The waiver portion establishes a level of proficiency in the flying and operation of these models. It basically comes down to managing the risk associated with model turbines.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
In the USA, most aeromodelers are AMA members to be covered by their insurance and to belong to an AMA chartered club. As a condition of AMA membership all must agree to abide by the AMA Safety Code. The AMA Turbine Regulations are part of this safety code. A turbine waiver is part of the regulations and therefore falls under the AMA Safety Code. Any individual that is NOT an AMA member may operate turbines at their own risk and liability. However, any unsafe operation and/or resulting accident affects all jet modelers- similar to unregulated FPV operation. The AMA Turbine Safety Regulations and procedures have been developed over many years and proven to effective in conducting safe operation of turbine powered models. The waiver portion establishes a level of proficiency in the flying and operation of these models. It basically comes down to managing the risk associated with model turbines.
Rgds,
Art ARRO