How do I get a Turbine Waiver if I Can't Fly a Turbine without One?
11-22-2014, 10:58 PM
#27
That's called personal responsibility, and the guy should take care of the damages if he "dumb thumbed" the model. If the model went in because of mechanical/electrical/engine failure then the burden falls on the owner of the model. This type of conversation should take place prior to the agreement for someone else flying your model.
If someone offers me to fly his jet, or I have to sign someone off, I take full responsibility of that plane if it crashes due to my blatant error.
If someone offers me to fly his jet, or I have to sign someone off, I take full responsibility of that plane if it crashes due to my blatant error.
11-23-2014, 12:55 AM
#28
That's called personal responsibility, and the guy should take care of the damages if he "dumb thumbed" the model. If the model went in because of mechanical/electrical/engine failure then the burden falls on the owner of the model. This type of conversation should take place prior to the agreement for someone else flying your model.
If someone offers me to fly his jet, or I have to sign someone off, I take full responsibility of that plane if it crashes due to my blatant error.
If someone offers me to fly his jet, or I have to sign someone off, I take full responsibility of that plane if it crashes due to my blatant error.
But this is a bit off topic, sorry.
11-23-2014, 04:56 AM
#29
Hi,
I've done quite a few trim flights for customers whose jets I built or assembled (ARFs) for them. It's their option to have me ship them a test-flown, trimmed out plane or they can do it themselves. I prefer to do the test-hop so that I know I'm sending off an airworthy bird but, again, it's up to the customer. I don't push them either way because I have them sign what I call the "I fly 'em. I don't buy 'em" waiver. Basically put, it states that the customer believes his bird to be more likely to survive the maiden with me at the sticks, but schnitt happens. I always have two cameras going from the moment I pull it out of the van to the moment I shut her down after landing. That's to cover myself in case of any question as to whether or not I tightened a bolt or removed a vent plug, but also to show the customer the flight. So far, I've never dumped a customer's plane on a test flight, but I did have a mishap recently when the EDF ran out of juice just seconds short of the runway. The customer was present and we both agreed on the timer setting, so I was technically covered--but I still felt like crap and paid for half of the repairs (unbeknownst to the customer) that my fixer-buddy did. It's a risky, iffy proposition for sure.
Another time, I had a guy come to me for sign-off help. After inspecting his plane, I wrote him a laundry list of things he needed to go home and fix before I'd touch it. He gave me the 'Oh come on, just fly it. I'll fix all that stuff later' routine. I said 'no thanks' and he went and found himself a less 'particular' CD who helped him crash it at a different field.
I've done quite a few trim flights for customers whose jets I built or assembled (ARFs) for them. It's their option to have me ship them a test-flown, trimmed out plane or they can do it themselves. I prefer to do the test-hop so that I know I'm sending off an airworthy bird but, again, it's up to the customer. I don't push them either way because I have them sign what I call the "I fly 'em. I don't buy 'em" waiver. Basically put, it states that the customer believes his bird to be more likely to survive the maiden with me at the sticks, but schnitt happens. I always have two cameras going from the moment I pull it out of the van to the moment I shut her down after landing. That's to cover myself in case of any question as to whether or not I tightened a bolt or removed a vent plug, but also to show the customer the flight. So far, I've never dumped a customer's plane on a test flight, but I did have a mishap recently when the EDF ran out of juice just seconds short of the runway. The customer was present and we both agreed on the timer setting, so I was technically covered--but I still felt like crap and paid for half of the repairs (unbeknownst to the customer) that my fixer-buddy did. It's a risky, iffy proposition for sure.
Another time, I had a guy come to me for sign-off help. After inspecting his plane, I wrote him a laundry list of things he needed to go home and fix before I'd touch it. He gave me the 'Oh come on, just fly it. I'll fix all that stuff later' routine. I said 'no thanks' and he went and found himself a less 'particular' CD who helped him crash it at a different field.
11-24-2014, 07:03 AM
#30
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If you don,t know how to fly, my sugestion to you is stay out of turbines for now. You will waste your money. As a turbine waver holder and CD I do not fly the applancants
plane I watch him to see if he knows how to operate his equipment.
plane I watch him to see if he knows how to operate his equipment.
11-24-2014, 08:48 AM
#31
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Opinion Alert:
I think the waiver signoff process just needs to go. I really dont see what value it provides. Damaging property is one thing but hurting another human is the most risk (and expensive thing) involved. And you can do that just if not more effectively with a 600-700 sized Heli, large 3d plane with a alrge prop, or heavy warbird (which is harder to fly and heavier than many jets).
I know jet guys dont like when I say this but its how I feel and I mean no disrespect.
Besides, lots and lots of jets crash all the time and the waiver process did nothing to stop it. Its going to happen with or without a waiver process. If a paper waiver is really needed for legal reasons, well then just sign a waiver and send it to the AMA, all this sign off stuff is just for show, and is a huge headache for new comers who dont care to go to rallys or suck up to some guy who takes his hobby way too serious.
There are GREAT CDs out there to work with so its a non issue in some cases, but we all hear the stories.
Can some guy who is not ready get a jet and crash it? You bet, it happens and they already have a waiver from a "buddy". There are a huge amount of waiver holders who have waivers from the "old days" when all you needed is to fly a foamy to get it (exaggerated). I am glad the AMA got more specific but they didnt revoke the waivers and these questionable pilots are still flying trainer jets around crashing into stuff (and worse, giving advice)
This is not meant to troll but to express my opinion. I know in this era the FAA Is all over us so now is not the time. But eventually I'd like to see it be removed as a requirement. Besides there are several parts of it the people dont abide by such as the min flights needed in a 24 month period. I KNOW several people dont meet that and I dont care, just saying. Its all or none.
Its nice to have someone experienced look over a model before it flies for sure though. Regardless of what it is! That is one positive aspect I hope the waiver process provides but not sure it always does.
I think the waiver signoff process just needs to go. I really dont see what value it provides. Damaging property is one thing but hurting another human is the most risk (and expensive thing) involved. And you can do that just if not more effectively with a 600-700 sized Heli, large 3d plane with a alrge prop, or heavy warbird (which is harder to fly and heavier than many jets).
I know jet guys dont like when I say this but its how I feel and I mean no disrespect.
Besides, lots and lots of jets crash all the time and the waiver process did nothing to stop it. Its going to happen with or without a waiver process. If a paper waiver is really needed for legal reasons, well then just sign a waiver and send it to the AMA, all this sign off stuff is just for show, and is a huge headache for new comers who dont care to go to rallys or suck up to some guy who takes his hobby way too serious.
There are GREAT CDs out there to work with so its a non issue in some cases, but we all hear the stories.
Can some guy who is not ready get a jet and crash it? You bet, it happens and they already have a waiver from a "buddy". There are a huge amount of waiver holders who have waivers from the "old days" when all you needed is to fly a foamy to get it (exaggerated). I am glad the AMA got more specific but they didnt revoke the waivers and these questionable pilots are still flying trainer jets around crashing into stuff (and worse, giving advice)
This is not meant to troll but to express my opinion. I know in this era the FAA Is all over us so now is not the time. But eventually I'd like to see it be removed as a requirement. Besides there are several parts of it the people dont abide by such as the min flights needed in a 24 month period. I KNOW several people dont meet that and I dont care, just saying. Its all or none.
Its nice to have someone experienced look over a model before it flies for sure though. Regardless of what it is! That is one positive aspect I hope the waiver process provides but not sure it always does.
11-24-2014, 09:42 AM
#32
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I have to argree about the wavier does nothing to prevent a crash while flyin a turbine model. As far as the ama insurance goes
it is almost non exsistence. This is based on experence.
it is almost non exsistence. This is based on experence.
11-24-2014, 10:46 AM
#33
Opinion Alert:
I think the waiver signoff process just needs to go. I really dont see what value it provides. Damaging property is one thing but hurting another human is the most risk (and expensive thing) involved. And you can do that just if not more effectively with a 600-700 sized Heli, large 3d plane with a alrge prop, or heavy warbird (which is harder to fly and heavier than many jets).
I know jet guys dont like when I say this but its how I feel and I mean no disrespect.
Besides, lots and lots of jets crash all the time and the waiver process did nothing to stop it. Its going to happen with or without a waiver process. If a paper waiver is really needed for legal reasons, well then just sign a waiver and send it to the AMA, all this sign off stuff is just for show, and is a huge headache for new comers who dont care to go to rallys or suck up to some guy who takes his hobby way too serious.
There are GREAT CDs out there to work with so its a non issue in some cases, but we all hear the stories.
Can some guy who is not ready get a jet and crash it? You bet, it happens and they already have a waiver from a "buddy". There are a huge amount of waiver holders who have waivers from the "old days" when all you needed is to fly a foamy to get it (exaggerated). I am glad the AMA got more specific but they didnt revoke the waivers and these questionable pilots are still flying trainer jets around crashing into stuff (and worse, giving advice)
This is not meant to troll but to express my opinion. I know in this era the FAA Is all over us so now is not the time. But eventually I'd like to see it be removed as a requirement. Besides there are several parts of it the people dont abide by such as the min flights needed in a 24 month period. I KNOW several people dont meet that and I dont care, just saying. Its all or none.
Its nice to have someone experienced look over a model before it flies for sure though. Regardless of what it is! That is one positive aspect I hope the waiver process provides but not sure it always does.
I think the waiver signoff process just needs to go. I really dont see what value it provides. Damaging property is one thing but hurting another human is the most risk (and expensive thing) involved. And you can do that just if not more effectively with a 600-700 sized Heli, large 3d plane with a alrge prop, or heavy warbird (which is harder to fly and heavier than many jets).
I know jet guys dont like when I say this but its how I feel and I mean no disrespect.
Besides, lots and lots of jets crash all the time and the waiver process did nothing to stop it. Its going to happen with or without a waiver process. If a paper waiver is really needed for legal reasons, well then just sign a waiver and send it to the AMA, all this sign off stuff is just for show, and is a huge headache for new comers who dont care to go to rallys or suck up to some guy who takes his hobby way too serious.
There are GREAT CDs out there to work with so its a non issue in some cases, but we all hear the stories.
Can some guy who is not ready get a jet and crash it? You bet, it happens and they already have a waiver from a "buddy". There are a huge amount of waiver holders who have waivers from the "old days" when all you needed is to fly a foamy to get it (exaggerated). I am glad the AMA got more specific but they didnt revoke the waivers and these questionable pilots are still flying trainer jets around crashing into stuff (and worse, giving advice)
This is not meant to troll but to express my opinion. I know in this era the FAA Is all over us so now is not the time. But eventually I'd like to see it be removed as a requirement. Besides there are several parts of it the people dont abide by such as the min flights needed in a 24 month period. I KNOW several people dont meet that and I dont care, just saying. Its all or none.
Its nice to have someone experienced look over a model before it flies for sure though. Regardless of what it is! That is one positive aspect I hope the waiver process provides but not sure it always does.
You make some good points. I also think the waiver process could be changed, I feel since the waiver is supposed to be all about safety I think the AMA should
provide a study guide to the applicant that covers all the their safety concerns and the applicant would then take test based on the study guide and if they
passed the test they would be issued a temp waiver. With the temp waiver they could operate their turbine for maybe 60 days and then they would have
to do a demo flight that is being videoed, Next they would send the video along with a witness statement to the AMA to receive their waiver also the I
think any turbine pilot could be the witness.
11-24-2014, 10:48 AM
#34
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essyou35,
Opinions are like belly buttons- everyone has one. I'd like to see your statistics on "lots and lots of jets crash" and the effect of the waiver process. About 15 years ago when model turbines first became available and modelers began installing them in RC aircraft our insurance carrier effectively banned their use for this purpose. The AMA then went to a number of experienced DF pilots and asked for information on safely operating turbines to "waive" this outright ban by our insurance carrier. Note that the liability insurance is secondary to AMA members but primary to AMA chartered flying site owners. Most, if not all, AMA flying sites would cease to exist without this primary coverage. Numerous proposals were initially developed and revised over the years to those that are currently in effect. The early waivers required a "ground school" specific to the brand of turbine being operated, followed by a written exam and a practical flight test. The written exam consisted of numerous essay type questions with a "Pass or Fail" grade. Upon ground school certification and a passing grade you took a flight test which was much more involved than the current version. The test had to be taken with a model capable of 150 MPH or greater- usually a high performance glow DF model. The flight examiners were drawn from a list of experienced jet pilots distributed throughout the country. Two examiners conducted the test and both had to sign you off. This is where "buddies" could sign you off and the regs were revised to have one of the individuals be a postion of authority,and responsibility, as an AMA Contest Director along with being a current turbine waiver holder. The requirement for 20 turbine flights within a 24 consecutive month period for waiver renewal was also dropped about this time. The turbine model requirements also had strict thrust-to-weight (T/W) requirements and speed limiters were being considered. These were both dropped about 5 years ago but the flight test now had to be performed with a turbine powered model, not an glow/EDF or high performance prop model. The results of all this are the AMA Turbine Safety Regulations which can be found on their website under the Documents Tab; Doc # 510-A. I suggest that you download, read and understand this document before offering further opinions on the subject. This is not a put down but a recommendation on education and improving model turbine safety.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, CD and Fixed Wing Turbine Waiver since 2001.
Opinions are like belly buttons- everyone has one. I'd like to see your statistics on "lots and lots of jets crash" and the effect of the waiver process. About 15 years ago when model turbines first became available and modelers began installing them in RC aircraft our insurance carrier effectively banned their use for this purpose. The AMA then went to a number of experienced DF pilots and asked for information on safely operating turbines to "waive" this outright ban by our insurance carrier. Note that the liability insurance is secondary to AMA members but primary to AMA chartered flying site owners. Most, if not all, AMA flying sites would cease to exist without this primary coverage. Numerous proposals were initially developed and revised over the years to those that are currently in effect. The early waivers required a "ground school" specific to the brand of turbine being operated, followed by a written exam and a practical flight test. The written exam consisted of numerous essay type questions with a "Pass or Fail" grade. Upon ground school certification and a passing grade you took a flight test which was much more involved than the current version. The test had to be taken with a model capable of 150 MPH or greater- usually a high performance glow DF model. The flight examiners were drawn from a list of experienced jet pilots distributed throughout the country. Two examiners conducted the test and both had to sign you off. This is where "buddies" could sign you off and the regs were revised to have one of the individuals be a postion of authority,and responsibility, as an AMA Contest Director along with being a current turbine waiver holder. The requirement for 20 turbine flights within a 24 consecutive month period for waiver renewal was also dropped about this time. The turbine model requirements also had strict thrust-to-weight (T/W) requirements and speed limiters were being considered. These were both dropped about 5 years ago but the flight test now had to be performed with a turbine powered model, not an glow/EDF or high performance prop model. The results of all this are the AMA Turbine Safety Regulations which can be found on their website under the Documents Tab; Doc # 510-A. I suggest that you download, read and understand this document before offering further opinions on the subject. This is not a put down but a recommendation on education and improving model turbine safety.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, CD and Fixed Wing Turbine Waiver since 2001.
11-24-2014, 11:40 AM
#35
Very well said. To me it's a big deal signing someone off on their waiver; I'll work with them as long as it takes. First, I want them to be safe and competent, and then I want to make sure they are having fun.
essyou35,
Opinions are like belly buttons- everyone has one. I'd like to see your statistics on "lots and lots of jets crash" and the effect of the waiver process. About 15 years ago when model turbines first became available and modelers began installing them in RC aircraft our insurance carrier effectively banned their use for this purpose. The AMA then went to a number of experienced DF pilots and asked for information on safely operating turbines to "waive" this outright ban by our insurance carrier. Note that the liability insurance is secondary to AMA members but primary to AMA chartered flying site owners. Most, if not all, AMA flying sites would cease to exist without this primary coverage. Numerous proposals were initially developed and revised over the years to those that are currently in effect. The early waivers required a "ground school" specific to the brand of turbine being operated, followed by a written exam and a practical flight test. The written exam consisted of numerous essay type questions with a "Pass or Fail" grade. Upon ground school certification and a passing grade you took a flight test which was much more involved than the current version. The test had to be taken with a model capable of 150 MPH or greater- usually a high performance glow DF model. The flight examiners were drawn from a list of experienced jet pilots distributed throughout the country. Two examiners conducted the test and both had to sign you off. This is where "buddies" could sign you off and the regs were revised to have one of the individuals be a postion of authority,and responsibility, as an AMA Contest Director along with being a current turbine waiver holder. The requirement for 20 turbine flights within a 24 consecutive month period for waiver renewal was also dropped about this time. The turbine model requirements also had strict thrust-to-weight (T/W) requirements and speed limiters were being considered. These were both dropped about 5 years ago but the flight test now had to be performed with a turbine powered model, not an glow/EDF or high performance prop model. The results of all this are the AMA Turbine Safety Regulations which can be found on their website under the Documents Tab; Doc # 510-A. I suggest that you download, read and understand this document before offering further opinions on the subject. This is not a put down but a recommendation on education and improving model turbine safety.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, CD and Fixed Wing Turbine Waiver since 2001.
Opinions are like belly buttons- everyone has one. I'd like to see your statistics on "lots and lots of jets crash" and the effect of the waiver process. About 15 years ago when model turbines first became available and modelers began installing them in RC aircraft our insurance carrier effectively banned their use for this purpose. The AMA then went to a number of experienced DF pilots and asked for information on safely operating turbines to "waive" this outright ban by our insurance carrier. Note that the liability insurance is secondary to AMA members but primary to AMA chartered flying site owners. Most, if not all, AMA flying sites would cease to exist without this primary coverage. Numerous proposals were initially developed and revised over the years to those that are currently in effect. The early waivers required a "ground school" specific to the brand of turbine being operated, followed by a written exam and a practical flight test. The written exam consisted of numerous essay type questions with a "Pass or Fail" grade. Upon ground school certification and a passing grade you took a flight test which was much more involved than the current version. The test had to be taken with a model capable of 150 MPH or greater- usually a high performance glow DF model. The flight examiners were drawn from a list of experienced jet pilots distributed throughout the country. Two examiners conducted the test and both had to sign you off. This is where "buddies" could sign you off and the regs were revised to have one of the individuals be a postion of authority,and responsibility, as an AMA Contest Director along with being a current turbine waiver holder. The requirement for 20 turbine flights within a 24 consecutive month period for waiver renewal was also dropped about this time. The turbine model requirements also had strict thrust-to-weight (T/W) requirements and speed limiters were being considered. These were both dropped about 5 years ago but the flight test now had to be performed with a turbine powered model, not an glow/EDF or high performance prop model. The results of all this are the AMA Turbine Safety Regulations which can be found on their website under the Documents Tab; Doc # 510-A. I suggest that you download, read and understand this document before offering further opinions on the subject. This is not a put down but a recommendation on education and improving model turbine safety.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, CD and Fixed Wing Turbine Waiver since 2001.
11-24-2014, 03:56 PM
#36
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Just to put my two cents in on this matter.I personally think the waiver sign off is a pretty good thing to do with new,hoping to be jet pilots but i think it could definetly be improved. I think the description of advanced aircraft should be clarified. The practice planes should have flaps,retractable landing gear and brakes because that is what a jet pilot will be dealing with eventually!! Also it should make clear what a advanced aircraft should be. Prop plane.ducted fan or whatever? As far as buddy boxing that is a joke in my opinion just because if the pilot on the trainer cord gets into trouble there simply isn't enoudh time for a experienced pilot to save the plane anway. He definetly couldn't help on a botched landing cause of the spool up time required.Also the requirement to have a experienced jet pilot and a cd jet pilot present for the sign off flight is just plain idiotic. Why not just two experirnced jet pilots.I live in Houston and lucky for me their is a lot of experienced jet pilots and quite a few CD pilots but it was still kinda tuff to get the test flight arranged. I would venture a guess that it would be really hard to do this in the smaller towns with clubs that have only 10 to 12 members. What is the reasoning behind one of the signoff guys has to be a contest director? Is he suppose to be more honest? Just my 2 cents worth!!
11-24-2014, 06:16 PM
#37
FWIW...when the latest rule changes were issued it was indeed because the AMA and JPO found out that a turbine waiver was actually issued to a member after he took his waiver test flight with an EDF F-20 foamie and had no actual turbine flight time.
This is when the AMA safety committee and JPO got together and wrote the new rules.
Boli
PS. Here is the thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...iver-test.html
This is when the AMA safety committee and JPO got together and wrote the new rules.
Boli
PS. Here is the thread: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...iver-test.html
Last edited by bevar; 11-24-2014 at 06:22 PM.
11-25-2014, 05:22 PM
#38
Melvin
There's really no complete description of an advanced aircraft for the turbine waiver; however, a turbine waiver must be done with a turbine aircraft. Flaps and retractable gear are not manditory, but the model must be able to come to a stop on command with the engine at idle, so brakes are required.
Buddy boxing is a good thing, and if done properly, it puts the student at ease where he can learn. For most students it's a pretty big workload and a lot to process at first. The trick is to never let the guy get beyond his limits when he is flying. I take the jet back a lot at first until I'm comfortable. And, he's not going to land the jet by himself until he's ready. What he will do is follow me on all of his switches and power settings while I'm flying so he can get use to them without having to look at his radio. Just my experience, most guys have more trouble with the speed and letting the jet get too far away than messing up a landing.
Now, to address your comment on CD's. A CD is a representative of the AMA. They are vetted and trusted by the AMA to conduct many activities, one of which is to certify that a new turbine pilot is competent and safe. This is a big deal.
I realize it's not easy in some cases to find a local CD for a sign off, but if a interested person calls the AMA headquarters and asks for help, they (AMA) will contact a CD and have him get in touch with the guy to get everything handled.
There's really no complete description of an advanced aircraft for the turbine waiver; however, a turbine waiver must be done with a turbine aircraft. Flaps and retractable gear are not manditory, but the model must be able to come to a stop on command with the engine at idle, so brakes are required.
Buddy boxing is a good thing, and if done properly, it puts the student at ease where he can learn. For most students it's a pretty big workload and a lot to process at first. The trick is to never let the guy get beyond his limits when he is flying. I take the jet back a lot at first until I'm comfortable. And, he's not going to land the jet by himself until he's ready. What he will do is follow me on all of his switches and power settings while I'm flying so he can get use to them without having to look at his radio. Just my experience, most guys have more trouble with the speed and letting the jet get too far away than messing up a landing.
Now, to address your comment on CD's. A CD is a representative of the AMA. They are vetted and trusted by the AMA to conduct many activities, one of which is to certify that a new turbine pilot is competent and safe. This is a big deal.
I realize it's not easy in some cases to find a local CD for a sign off, but if a interested person calls the AMA headquarters and asks for help, they (AMA) will contact a CD and have him get in touch with the guy to get everything handled.
Just to put my two cents in on this matter.I personally think the waiver sign off is a pretty good thing to do with new,hoping to be jet pilots but i think it could definetly be improved. I think the description of advanced aircraft should be clarified. The practice planes should have flaps,retractable landing gear and brakes because that is what a jet pilot will be dealing with eventually!! Also it should make clear what a advanced aircraft should be. Prop plane.ducted fan or whatever? As far as buddy boxing that is a joke in my opinion just because if the pilot on the trainer cord gets into trouble there simply isn't enoudh time for a experienced pilot to save the plane anway. He definetly couldn't help on a botched landing cause of the spool up time required.Also the requirement to have a experienced jet pilot and a cd jet pilot present for the sign off flight is just plain idiotic. Why not just two experirnced jet pilots.I live in Houston and lucky for me their is a lot of experienced jet pilots and quite a few CD pilots but it was still kinda tuff to get the test flight arranged. I would venture a guess that it would be really hard to do this in the smaller towns with clubs that have only 10 to 12 members. What is the reasoning behind one of the signoff guys has to be a contest director? Is he suppose to be more honest? Just my 2 cents worth!!
11-25-2014, 06:02 PM
#39
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Sorry but i have to disagree on the matter that a person who is a CD and being vetted by the AMA means very much. The AMA doesn't know the morals,honesty and true charachter of the people that they give CD status. They don't meet these people in person. They don't set up a meeting with hopeful CD canidates to ask them about there history or there honesty or even their IQ level.As far as most people getting into trouble with a jet is them getting to far out that is definetly a possibility but ive seen a lot of supposed experienced Jet guys tear up there jets trying to land them. Heck just go online and look at all the videos at different jet events and you will see way more jets tore up from people trying to land them than anyting else. ive never seen a vtdeo yet that shows a jet going in because the pilot flew it too far away. Also i know that the waiver has to be done with a true jet engine to be signed off. I never said other wise!! But you have too admit that probably most turbine jets that we are flying have flaps and landing gears that retract. A person wanting too get signed off on a waiver should have to fly this type of aircraft before he can be signed . Just an example. You wouldn't want to give a driver a CDL just because he can pass his driver license test in a ford f150 would you. not trying to get into a pissing contest,I just think the process can be improved a little bit to help hopefuls in getting their waivers without all the headache of trying to find a jet pilot contest director
11-26-2014, 04:18 AM
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Melvin,
I disagree with your statements regarding an AMA Contest Director to sign off a turbine waiver applicant. I suggest that you download, read and understand Doc # 303 under the Documents Tab of the AMA website: www.modelaircraft.org. To become appointed to a CD position the applicant must be an active AMA member for 3 consecutive years, have 3 references of good character, sign a pledge to follow AMA rules, including the Safety Code, pass a 20 question quiz, and pay a $ 20 admin fee. Furthermore, to sign a prospective turbine pilot's waiver application that CD must also posess a turbine waiver. A listing of turbine waived CD's is posted on the AMA website along with all of the waiver holders in the USA. AMA HQ will also assist the turbine applicant to find a local turbine CD for the waiver qualification. This procedure has worked very well over the years. If you have any suggested improvements I recommend contacting AMA Safety Commitee directly.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, AMA Leader Member/CD , Fixed Wing Turbine Waiver # 2570
I disagree with your statements regarding an AMA Contest Director to sign off a turbine waiver applicant. I suggest that you download, read and understand Doc # 303 under the Documents Tab of the AMA website: www.modelaircraft.org. To become appointed to a CD position the applicant must be an active AMA member for 3 consecutive years, have 3 references of good character, sign a pledge to follow AMA rules, including the Safety Code, pass a 20 question quiz, and pay a $ 20 admin fee. Furthermore, to sign a prospective turbine pilot's waiver application that CD must also posess a turbine waiver. A listing of turbine waived CD's is posted on the AMA website along with all of the waiver holders in the USA. AMA HQ will also assist the turbine applicant to find a local turbine CD for the waiver qualification. This procedure has worked very well over the years. If you have any suggested improvements I recommend contacting AMA Safety Commitee directly.
Rgds,
Art ARRO, AMA Leader Member/CD , Fixed Wing Turbine Waiver # 2570
11-26-2014, 10:16 PM
#42
The Australian jet turbine approval process is different to the US waiver system.
The model is inspected & then the pilot is tested on his ability to operate & fly that particular model.
If all is ok the model & pilot receive a 3 year permit to fly. Two models, two permits.
This recognises that a pilot perfectly capable with a Boomerang or Shock Jet may be way over his
head with something like a twin engine F-18. A bit like full size aircraft endorsements.
Gas turbine inspectors are appointed by the national body based on their turbine experience. - John.
The model is inspected & then the pilot is tested on his ability to operate & fly that particular model.
If all is ok the model & pilot receive a 3 year permit to fly. Two models, two permits.
This recognises that a pilot perfectly capable with a Boomerang or Shock Jet may be way over his
head with something like a twin engine F-18. A bit like full size aircraft endorsements.
Gas turbine inspectors are appointed by the national body based on their turbine experience. - John.
12-01-2014, 08:50 AM
#43
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I will be working on my Waiver starting next spring (Ultra Flash almost complete). I have run the turbine once on a stand and last week in the jet (both in my driveway - neighbors "loved" it.). I for one, will be glad to have an experienced pilot helping me through the learning curve.
My question is - can I take my jet to the field (AMA sanctioned), start the turbine and do some taxiing without supervision, or is this also not allowed until one possesses a waiver?
Thanks - Jeremy
My question is - can I take my jet to the field (AMA sanctioned), start the turbine and do some taxiing without supervision, or is this also not allowed until one possesses a waiver?
Thanks - Jeremy
12-01-2014, 02:14 PM
#44
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Jeremy,
Good question and the answer lies in the interpretation of "operate" as in operating a model gas turbine under AMA Safety Regulations.Technically you can not "operate" a turbine without a turbine waiver even at an AMA Chartered Club field- no such thing as an AMA sanctioned field. I would seek the assistance of a local turbine waiver holder at this field. Ensure that one of you has a fire extinquisher and any other equipment/tools that will assist in this process. You can verify control settings, model tracking/steering and perform range checks during this session. An experienced turbine pilot will flatten the steep learning curve of turbine operation including the maiden flight. Good luck in all this.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
Good question and the answer lies in the interpretation of "operate" as in operating a model gas turbine under AMA Safety Regulations.Technically you can not "operate" a turbine without a turbine waiver even at an AMA Chartered Club field- no such thing as an AMA sanctioned field. I would seek the assistance of a local turbine waiver holder at this field. Ensure that one of you has a fire extinquisher and any other equipment/tools that will assist in this process. You can verify control settings, model tracking/steering and perform range checks during this session. An experienced turbine pilot will flatten the steep learning curve of turbine operation including the maiden flight. Good luck in all this.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
12-01-2014, 02:40 PM
#45
My Feedback: (134)
Jeremy,
Just to echo some of what Art just said, I wouldn't think of even starting up the turbine without a detailed checklist and someone helping to verify that the checklist covers all the bases to let me operate the turbine and model safely. This isn't rocket science but lots of stuff in this hobby can reach out and bite if you are not careful. And though you might get by with it once or lots of times, it is still better to have another pair of eyes looking over your work and procedures. I do it with every new model of any complexity and am never afraid to ask for an observer.
Sounds like you are well on your way. You will love flying turbine powered models and will find that there are lots of folks out there willing to help.
Just to echo some of what Art just said, I wouldn't think of even starting up the turbine without a detailed checklist and someone helping to verify that the checklist covers all the bases to let me operate the turbine and model safely. This isn't rocket science but lots of stuff in this hobby can reach out and bite if you are not careful. And though you might get by with it once or lots of times, it is still better to have another pair of eyes looking over your work and procedures. I do it with every new model of any complexity and am never afraid to ask for an observer.
Sounds like you are well on your way. You will love flying turbine powered models and will find that there are lots of folks out there willing to help.
