New Intairco Super Trap
07-24-2016, 11:22 AM
#26
I told him my thought is the uat is there to trap the air and unless u want to run the dual ports there is no need. Yes it holds more fuel but you never use that fuel unless your mains are empty and that's not enough to give u just a few more seconds. Plus it's heavier so unless you run the dual port the smaller one in my opinion is the way to go, I use it on my large 52lb thrust P200 without and issues.
EDIT: I did not see Oli's post. Same answer
Last edited by mr_matt; 07-24-2016 at 11:24 AM.
07-24-2016, 12:06 PM
#28
Okay this is my opinion is all, I have ran this size on my P200 from the start with out any issues, the volume between the two traps is not that big of a difference. Every air trap I have used developes a small air pocket during operation. I think the issue you talk about are most noticeable in the smaller plastic flimsy air traps. With a rigid uat and big enough fittings, large vent/fuel lines you will not get cavitation. The largest turbines 99.9% of the people in the US use are the 55lb thrust and under.
These are my opinions of course feel free to spend the extra cash and weight if you choose. I have ran the smaller plastic high flow and even made my own hi flow uats without any issues. I think more issues come from restrictions due to bad fuel system setups. I'm no pro just giving my experience
These are my opinions of course feel free to spend the extra cash and weight if you choose. I have ran the smaller plastic high flow and even made my own hi flow uats without any issues. I think more issues come from restrictions due to bad fuel system setups. I'm no pro just giving my experience
07-24-2016, 01:11 PM
#29
Well I have read your blog and the majority of it talks about cavitation, I have never seen a uat get that much air in it to cause you to suck air. The larger uat would not do anything for you if you had that much air in the uat. Like I said I have read your blogs in the past and don't dissagree with you but in this instance with a proper system I don't see any benefit to the larger uat unless your running a dual system. It's all good
07-24-2016, 03:51 PM
#31
I am not trying to pick a fight with someone smarter than me I just feel this particular product is a winner which ever version you use. The small filters are awesome as well since they are clear as well! I do run MAPs in my F-14 which are high flow and I ran them prior to the Interairco release without any issues as well. On that note im going to stop posting now and give my Blue Moon and the beach some attention! Cheers everyone!
07-24-2016, 08:48 PM
#32
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Oli, double wrong
Based on you logic, you would need a 1200 ml air trap!! Centre pickup air traps can only supply fuel to the half way point as they will start to draw air. A P300 consumes 500ml per 30 seconds and therefore you "500ml" recommendation would be pulling air in 15 seconds. May as well just put another fuel tank in without a clunk line.
Keith is very right on his point of view. I don't have a blog for you to read but happy to write one for you on the true effects of supply, cavitation and the dangers associated with them.
Shane Bartlett
Based on you logic, you would need a 1200 ml air trap!! Centre pickup air traps can only supply fuel to the half way point as they will start to draw air. A P300 consumes 500ml per 30 seconds and therefore you "500ml" recommendation would be pulling air in 15 seconds. May as well just put another fuel tank in without a clunk line.
Keith is very right on his point of view. I don't have a blog for you to read but happy to write one for you on the true effects of supply, cavitation and the dangers associated with them.
Shane Bartlett
Wrong. The air trap's main purpose is to buffer the air that's picked up by the clunk during aerobatics. The larger quantity, the less risk of running a dry air trap.
If too much air is in the air trap, the drag increases around the filter unit till it cavitates and sends micro air bubbles to the engine that will flame out.
For hardcore aerobatics, I recommend choosing an air trap that holds 30 seconds of full thrust consumption. Could be 500 ml and more for 300N engines.
Please refer to my blog:
http://www.ultimate-jets.net/blogs/f...ing-cavitation
If too much air is in the air trap, the drag increases around the filter unit till it cavitates and sends micro air bubbles to the engine that will flame out.
For hardcore aerobatics, I recommend choosing an air trap that holds 30 seconds of full thrust consumption. Could be 500 ml and more for 300N engines.
Please refer to my blog:
http://www.ultimate-jets.net/blogs/f...ing-cavitation
07-24-2016, 09:04 PM
#33
I too have the Intairco trap and the filter. I am running a K140G and I have not seen any issues. Yes granted I am running a smaller turbine but. After doing testing and the first flight on the Viper, I checked the UAT and their is no Air bubble at all. I think that the reason for that is a few things.
: For my size turbine, I used 3/16 fuel line all they up to the point of the fuel Filter exit which then I used the supplied line to turbine.
: Used a heavy cluck to move in the same motion and same time as fuel ( Meaning that the fuel doesn't go to one side of the tank while the clunk catches up causing air to enter the fuel line. The clunk stays in the fuel the whole time)
Now after reading the blog and my understanding of how things work. The size fuel line I used for this ensures that the vent line allows proper amount of air to flow into the tank while the pump is pulling fuel to supply the turbine. The pressure in the tank in my opinion is equal or positive to what the pump is trying to pull allowing the UAT to stay full of fuel and not air. Now I would think that if using a larger turbine which in turn a more powerful pump to supply fuel; I would think using the larger fuel line would do the same. Now at this point, it was me I would want to make sure that I have not just one vent line on the tank(s) but two allowing more air to enter the tank(s) as the same rate as the pump is pulling fuel out. We know that when supplying more power to the turbine, the pump will pull more fuel. The fuel level in the UAT drops due to the amount of fuel being pulled from the UAT and the tank is not allowing the UAT to supply enough fuel to keep it full. Just as Oli stated keeping the vent side much larger will ensure enough air flow into the tank which in turn allows fuel to follow into the UAT much faster to keep up with the demand of what the pump is trying to pull.
Greater air flow into tank = full UAT or equal pressure (Rate) from tank to pump
I hope this makes sense and didn't just restate quotes. The level (rate) of fuel entering the UAT should be equal or grater the what the pump is trying to pull. I think this would help with cavitation and large air bubbles.
Also, the fitting size I would think would need to be correct as well. The bore size would need to be large enough to ensure that it doesn't cause pressure at the fitting.
: For my size turbine, I used 3/16 fuel line all they up to the point of the fuel Filter exit which then I used the supplied line to turbine.
: Used a heavy cluck to move in the same motion and same time as fuel ( Meaning that the fuel doesn't go to one side of the tank while the clunk catches up causing air to enter the fuel line. The clunk stays in the fuel the whole time)
Now after reading the blog and my understanding of how things work. The size fuel line I used for this ensures that the vent line allows proper amount of air to flow into the tank while the pump is pulling fuel to supply the turbine. The pressure in the tank in my opinion is equal or positive to what the pump is trying to pull allowing the UAT to stay full of fuel and not air. Now I would think that if using a larger turbine which in turn a more powerful pump to supply fuel; I would think using the larger fuel line would do the same. Now at this point, it was me I would want to make sure that I have not just one vent line on the tank(s) but two allowing more air to enter the tank(s) as the same rate as the pump is pulling fuel out. We know that when supplying more power to the turbine, the pump will pull more fuel. The fuel level in the UAT drops due to the amount of fuel being pulled from the UAT and the tank is not allowing the UAT to supply enough fuel to keep it full. Just as Oli stated keeping the vent side much larger will ensure enough air flow into the tank which in turn allows fuel to follow into the UAT much faster to keep up with the demand of what the pump is trying to pull.
Greater air flow into tank = full UAT or equal pressure (Rate) from tank to pump
I hope this makes sense and didn't just restate quotes. The level (rate) of fuel entering the UAT should be equal or grater the what the pump is trying to pull. I think this would help with cavitation and large air bubbles.
Also, the fitting size I would think would need to be correct as well. The bore size would need to be large enough to ensure that it doesn't cause pressure at the fitting.
Last edited by JoeJr1485; 07-24-2016 at 09:08 PM.
07-24-2016, 09:29 PM
#34
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Joe
Just for reference, air has no discernable viscosity (drag) and even a single 3 mm air vent line into a tank/air trap would be enough to replace any fuel coming out. The idea of running large vent lines between tanks is to allow fuel flow. A large vent line from tank to outside the fuse allows for taxi tanks and overflow.
Just for reference, air has no discernable viscosity (drag) and even a single 3 mm air vent line into a tank/air trap would be enough to replace any fuel coming out. The idea of running large vent lines between tanks is to allow fuel flow. A large vent line from tank to outside the fuse allows for taxi tanks and overflow.
I too have the Intairco trap and the filter. I am running a K140G and I have not seen any issues. Yes granted I am running a smaller turbine but. After doing testing and the first flight on the Viper, I checked the UAT and their is no Air bubble at all. I think that the reason for that is a few things.
: For my size turbine, I used 3/16 fuel line all they up to the point of the fuel Filter exit which then I used the supplied line to turbine.
: Used a heavy cluck to move in the same motion and same time as fuel ( Meaning that the fuel doesn't go to one side of the tank while the clunk catches up causing air to enter the fuel line. The clunk stays in the fuel the whole time)
Now after reading the blog and my understanding of how things work. The size fuel line I used for this ensures that the vent line allows proper amount of air to flow into the tank while the pump is pulling fuel to supply the turbine. The pressure in the tank in my opinion is equal or positive to what the pump is trying to pull allowing the UAT to stay full of fuel and not air. Now I would think that if using a larger turbine which in turn a more powerful pump to supply fuel; I would think using the larger fuel line would do the same. Now at this point, it was me I would want to make sure that I have not just one vent line on the tank(s) but two allowing more air to enter the tank(s) as the same rate as the pump is pulling fuel out. We know that when supplying more power to the turbine, the pump will pull more fuel. The fuel level in the UAT drops due to the amount of fuel being pulled from the UAT and the tank is not allowing the UAT to supply enough fuel to keep it full. Just as Oli stated keeping the vent side much larger will ensure enough air flow into the tank which in turn allows fuel to follow into the UAT much faster to keep up with the demand of what the pump is trying to pull.
Greater air flow into tank = full UAT or equal pressure (Rate) from tank to pump
I hope this makes sense and didn't just restate quotes. The level (rate) of fuel entering the UAT should be equal or grater the what the pump is trying to pull. I think this would help with cavitation and large air bubbles.
Also, the fitting size I would think would need to be correct as well. The bore size would need to be large enough to ensure that it doesn't cause pressure at the fitting.
: For my size turbine, I used 3/16 fuel line all they up to the point of the fuel Filter exit which then I used the supplied line to turbine.
: Used a heavy cluck to move in the same motion and same time as fuel ( Meaning that the fuel doesn't go to one side of the tank while the clunk catches up causing air to enter the fuel line. The clunk stays in the fuel the whole time)
Now after reading the blog and my understanding of how things work. The size fuel line I used for this ensures that the vent line allows proper amount of air to flow into the tank while the pump is pulling fuel to supply the turbine. The pressure in the tank in my opinion is equal or positive to what the pump is trying to pull allowing the UAT to stay full of fuel and not air. Now I would think that if using a larger turbine which in turn a more powerful pump to supply fuel; I would think using the larger fuel line would do the same. Now at this point, it was me I would want to make sure that I have not just one vent line on the tank(s) but two allowing more air to enter the tank(s) as the same rate as the pump is pulling fuel out. We know that when supplying more power to the turbine, the pump will pull more fuel. The fuel level in the UAT drops due to the amount of fuel being pulled from the UAT and the tank is not allowing the UAT to supply enough fuel to keep it full. Just as Oli stated keeping the vent side much larger will ensure enough air flow into the tank which in turn allows fuel to follow into the UAT much faster to keep up with the demand of what the pump is trying to pull.
Greater air flow into tank = full UAT or equal pressure (Rate) from tank to pump
I hope this makes sense and didn't just restate quotes. The level (rate) of fuel entering the UAT should be equal or grater the what the pump is trying to pull. I think this would help with cavitation and large air bubbles.
Also, the fitting size I would think would need to be correct as well. The bore size would need to be large enough to ensure that it doesn't cause pressure at the fitting.
07-24-2016, 09:52 PM
#35
Joe
Just for reference, air has no discernable viscosity (drag) and even a single 3 mm air vent line into a tank/air trap would be enough to replace any fuel coming out. The idea of running large vent lines between tanks is to allow fuel flow. A large vent line from tank to outside the fuse allows for taxi tanks and overflow.
Just for reference, air has no discernable viscosity (drag) and even a single 3 mm air vent line into a tank/air trap would be enough to replace any fuel coming out. The idea of running large vent lines between tanks is to allow fuel flow. A large vent line from tank to outside the fuse allows for taxi tanks and overflow.
07-26-2016, 11:40 AM
#36
Once you hit 4000 page view per day, we'll start talking again.
07-26-2016, 04:20 PM
#37
Just for reference, air has no discernable viscosity (drag) and even a single 3 mm air vent line into a tank/air trap would be enough to replace any fuel coming out. The idea of running large vent lines between tanks is to allow fuel flow. A large vent line from tank to outside the fuse allows for taxi tanks and overflow.
Last edited by sc0tt; 07-26-2016 at 04:28 PM.
07-26-2016, 07:01 PM
#39
This is one of the most misleading posts I've read recently. Not sure what your experience is, but if you've had any with 200N+ size systems you would quickly understand why we use 3/16" or larger tubing and fittings thru the entire system, including why the vent line is that size.
07-26-2016, 07:56 PM
#40
This is one of the most misleading posts I've read recently. Not sure what your experience is, but if you've had any with 200N+ size systems you would quickly understand why we use 3/16" or larger tubing and fittings thru the entire system, including why the vent line is that size.
07-26-2016, 07:56 PM
#41
Based on you logic, you would need a 1200 ml air trap!! Centre pickup air traps can only supply fuel to the half way point as they will start to draw air. A P300 consumes 500ml per 30 seconds and therefore you "500ml" recommendation would be pulling air in 15 seconds.
Shane Bartlett
07-27-2016, 01:00 AM
#42
Exactly why he is wrong for our applications, especially on larger turbines. Lots of info in old posts on fuel draw problems with P200/180 (and others) and what drove use of 3/16" fittings, some using dual vents, JMP's old aluminum trap, etc.
Last edited by sc0tt; 07-27-2016 at 01:28 AM.
07-27-2016, 01:07 PM
#43
Scott I never said you cannot be too small on the vent just saying that air is less restrictive than fuel. I always use the largest lines and fittings on everything from uat to vent. That being said I'm sure I could go less and be just fine. As I stated before I have ran the smaller uat on a P200 now since ms jets last year without any issues. That's not to say someone couldnt run the same combo and not have issues using smaller stuff. My only opinion is either UAT will function just fine up to the P200 class turbines with hi-flow setup. I personally think the larger uat with dual fittings could cause more issues since it's the same fittings as the small with two turbines feeding on it. Then again if you setup your system properly you could have no issues.
like Andy said if it works it works right, this is just good discussion no need for anyone to get their feelings hurt or angry.
like Andy said if it works it works right, this is just good discussion no need for anyone to get their feelings hurt or angry.
Last edited by FenderBean; 07-27-2016 at 01:12 PM.
07-27-2016, 03:40 PM
#44
Keith, we're cool (we talked briefly at JOK about your Rebel)- I have no arguments over the smaller UAT deal. I've used the small JMP aluminum one on P180/200 for years with no issues. Currently using CAT and new design JMP traps on K210's and no issues. Already picked up a couple Intairco's nice see thru units for my next big block projects. From my experience, on 180N+ turbines run 3/16" ID on all lines and fittings and you should be ok.
My only issue in this entire thread was the misleading info from our friend down under implying large vent lines are only for hooking up taxi tanks.
My only issue in this entire thread was the misleading info from our friend down under implying large vent lines are only for hooking up taxi tanks.
Last edited by sc0tt; 07-27-2016 at 03:47 PM.
07-27-2016, 05:55 PM
#45
Keith, we're cool (we talked briefly at JOK about your Rebel)- I have no arguments over the smaller UAT deal. I've used the small JMP aluminum one on P180/200 for years with no issues. Currently using CAT and new design JMP traps on K210's and no issues. Already picked up a couple Intairco's nice see thru units for my next big block projects. From my experience, on 180N+ turbines run 3/16" ID on all lines and fittings and you should be ok.
My only issue in this entire thread was the misleading info from our friend down under implying large vent lines are only for hooking up taxi tanks.
My only issue in this entire thread was the misleading info from our friend down under implying large vent lines are only for hooking up taxi tanks.
07-28-2016, 04:54 AM
#46
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To be totally honest and blunt Shane deserves a lot more respect for his knowledge than you have just given him. Your orignal desciption is best suited to a hopper tank, while an air trap does exactly that, trap air that would otherwise go to the pump and then to the turbine.
Last edited by mackeyjones; 07-28-2016 at 05:19 AM.
07-29-2016, 08:43 AM
#47
My Feedback: (34)
Ok, so My MAP High Flow UAT must be having Cavitation issues, I have no air leaks, and my pick ups are fine. I even pressurized my system to 15 PSI and checked all connections with soap and water.
Im looking for a new UAT for my K180, I was going to order this new red / clear one you have on this posting but Im confused by its listing on DreamWorks, So are all 3 nipples needing a 8 size festo line to go over the nipples? Or do you uses 6 size Festo Lines to go over your nipples?
Thanks Mike
Im looking for a new UAT for my K180, I was going to order this new red / clear one you have on this posting but Im confused by its listing on DreamWorks, So are all 3 nipples needing a 8 size festo line to go over the nipples? Or do you uses 6 size Festo Lines to go over your nipples?
Thanks Mike
07-29-2016, 09:11 AM
#48
Ok, so My MAP High Flow UAT must be having Cavitation issues, I have no air leaks, and my pick ups are fine. I even pressurized my system to 15 PSI and checked all connections with soap and water.
Im looking for a new UAT for my K180, I was going to order this new red / clear one you have on this posting but Im confused by its listing on DreamWorks, So are all 3 nipples needing a 8 size festo line to go over the nipples? Or do you uses 6 size Festo Lines to go over your nipples?
Thanks Mike
Im looking for a new UAT for my K180, I was going to order this new red / clear one you have on this posting but Im confused by its listing on DreamWorks, So are all 3 nipples needing a 8 size festo line to go over the nipples? Or do you uses 6 size Festo Lines to go over your nipples?
Thanks Mike
These fuel tubing sizes are getting confusing. I can tell you this; I just received one of the hi-flow Interaico traps from DreamWorks and 3/16" Tygon fits perfectly. I don't know what that corresponds to in mm or Festo sizes but anything larger than 3/16" is probably too large. On the other hand, you could probably squeeze on the next smaller size.
FWIW, I have some BVM hi-flow fittings and they are a little bit bigger than the Interairco.
Craig
07-29-2016, 10:48 AM
#49
Mike what are you experiencing to say your getting cavitation on the MAP? I ran these prior to the interairco without any issues, I have them on my twin that uses k170s pushing 180 size thrust.
07-29-2016, 10:55 AM
#50
Mike,
Regarding your MAP trap - I would suggest taking the cap off, remove teflon tape, lightly clean with acetone to get rid of any fuel residue and permanently hysol the cap on. Years ago I had similar issues with an old big can Jetcat P180 using BVM's UAT with enlarged fittings. Was running 3/16" lines, fittings, even dual vents but was still getting air in UAT. During some ground run-ups at high power I finally noticed air was getting thru the UAT cap threads causing the problem due to slight distortion when the nalgene UAT sides sucked in. Gluing the cap on worked, but I eventually switched to JMP's all aluminum unit because that was the only proven option back then. Now we have a wide range of trap manufacturers to choose from and most hard shell ones work perfectly fine.
For Intairco's big trap, you need to keep the tank and pump feed fittings large, but your fill/defuel one can be reduced. I believe Dreamworks only sells this trap with 3/16" barbed fittings. However, Altecare offers a range of fitting options just as if you ordered direct from Intairco.
http://www.altecare.com/fuelsystems.htm
Regarding your MAP trap - I would suggest taking the cap off, remove teflon tape, lightly clean with acetone to get rid of any fuel residue and permanently hysol the cap on. Years ago I had similar issues with an old big can Jetcat P180 using BVM's UAT with enlarged fittings. Was running 3/16" lines, fittings, even dual vents but was still getting air in UAT. During some ground run-ups at high power I finally noticed air was getting thru the UAT cap threads causing the problem due to slight distortion when the nalgene UAT sides sucked in. Gluing the cap on worked, but I eventually switched to JMP's all aluminum unit because that was the only proven option back then. Now we have a wide range of trap manufacturers to choose from and most hard shell ones work perfectly fine.
For Intairco's big trap, you need to keep the tank and pump feed fittings large, but your fill/defuel one can be reduced. I believe Dreamworks only sells this trap with 3/16" barbed fittings. However, Altecare offers a range of fitting options just as if you ordered direct from Intairco.
http://www.altecare.com/fuelsystems.htm
Last edited by sc0tt; 07-29-2016 at 11:00 AM.