Taiwan plane cartwheels into river after hiting bridge
02-05-2015, 07:26 AM
#26
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A statement from a fellow pilot and FAA Examiner - You can take all the black boxes, red boxes and any color boxes, but unless you are actually sitting in one of the pilot seats when the incident occurs, you will really never know what happened !
Simple, simple ...............
I love all the second guessers and Monday night quarter backs !
After a career in aviation, I have lost track of how many times I have been asked after an aviation accident, " What do you think happened ? What do you think caused it ? ".
Got really tired of stating, how the heck would I know, I was not in the cockpit flying the aircraft !
Yes it is sad that people lost their lives and my thoughts and prayers go out to those folks, as I have lost so many good friends in aviation accidents. One time in one family, the father and his two sons were all killed in aviation accidents. Notice I said accidents, because they were all separate accidents.
Lets just have good thoughts for the folks that have lost their lives and the loved ones that are suffering because of this incident. And stop the second guessing !
Simple, simple ...............
I love all the second guessers and Monday night quarter backs !
After a career in aviation, I have lost track of how many times I have been asked after an aviation accident, " What do you think happened ? What do you think caused it ? ".
Got really tired of stating, how the heck would I know, I was not in the cockpit flying the aircraft !
Yes it is sad that people lost their lives and my thoughts and prayers go out to those folks, as I have lost so many good friends in aviation accidents. One time in one family, the father and his two sons were all killed in aviation accidents. Notice I said accidents, because they were all separate accidents.
Lets just have good thoughts for the folks that have lost their lives and the loved ones that are suffering because of this incident. And stop the second guessing !
02-05-2015, 07:31 AM
#27
Excellent Zeeb, I thought vmc problem from first video clip I saw last night. The aircraft is shown cleaned up, gear & flaps up with gear doors closed and LE looks to be in "auto feather". If the aircraft had been above vmc there is no reason to lose control unless there was another system failure we don't know about yet.
Pretty impressive that you can tell that the left engine autofeathered properly from that grainy video. The probable reason for losing control, is maybe the right engine wasn't producing full power due to fuel contamination, bird strike, or a myriad of other reasons, which none of us are privy to at this point. In a "Vmc" situation, the first indication of loss of directional control is a yaw, not a roll. This airplane did not yaw at all, it just dropped a wing. This appears to be a departure from controlled flight due to a stall. That would make sense, if the operating engine was not making full power. If it was, the airplane would've been climbing, absent other issues. Again, uninformed, amateur, Monday morning quarterbacking after a tragic event such as this, is in extremely poor taste.
Erik
Last edited by Erik R; 02-05-2015 at 07:35 AM.
02-05-2015, 08:24 AM
#28
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It's Thursday morning and Erik R. takes the snap, He heaves the ball into the air with the word "maybe" followed by probable reasons, and then tries to immune himself by saying " or a myriad of other reasons, which none of us are privy to at this point." Who is the Monday morning quarter back here????? Everyone here is trying to figure out the cause. Even you Erik. Lighten up. None of this hurts anyone, And maybe the ideas and assumptions in this thread could be a little piece of help In finding a reason For the crash.
02-05-2015, 08:47 AM
#29
It's Thursday morning and Erik R. takes the snap, He heaves the ball into the air with the word "maybe" followed by probable reasons, and then tries to immune himself by saying " or a myriad of other reasons, which none of us are privy to at this point." Who is the Monday morning quarter back here????? Everyone here is trying to figure out the cause. Even you Erik. Lighten up. None of this hurts anyone, And maybe the ideas and assumptions in this thread could be a little piece of help In finding a reason For the crash.
Don't tell me to lighten up. I'm a current and qualified A-320 capt for one of the largest airlines in the world, with over 18,000 hrs of experience, and I take offense to amateurs bloviating dubious speculation about the performance of a professional aircrew. Although pilot error may very well have been a contributing factor, none of us know at this point.
As far as it not hurting anyone, people regurgitate what they read on the internet, and fiction becomes fact, in too many peoples minds. It's pretty self-absorbed to think that uninformed speculation on an rc jet forum, by amateurs would help find a reason for the crash, or be of any use to anyone involved. This will be my last post on this subject.
Again, God bless the crew, passengers, and their families.
Erik
02-05-2015, 08:55 AM
#30
Seriously?!? Here's the bottom line. I'm not trying to figure out the cause. I will read the reports, when they are published, in the interest of educating myself. Uninformed statements, like "Vmc demo", or "cut the good engine and land straight ahead", are extremely disrespectful to the deceased crew. I was just trying to point out that none of us here have any credible, pertinent information about this incident, and have no right to judge any of it.
Erik
Erik
02-05-2015, 09:06 AM
#31
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Erik R. "I was just trying to point out that none of us here have any credible, pertinent information about this incident" ????? What about the video? Will the investigators use that in their attempt to find the cause of the crash?
02-05-2015, 09:08 AM
#32
Seriously?!? Here's the bottom line. I'm not trying to figure out the cause. I will read the reports, when they are published, in the interest of educating myself. Uninformed statements, like "Vmc demo", or "cut the good engine and land straight ahead", are extremely disrespectful to the deceased crew. I was just trying to point out that none of us here have any credible, pertinent information about this incident, and have no right to judge any of it.
Don't tell me to lighten up. I'm a current and qualified A-320 capt for one of the largest airlines in the world, with over 18,000 hrs of experience, and I take offense to amateurs bloviating dubious speculation about the performance of a professional aircrew. Although pilot error may very well have been a contributing factor, none of us know at this point.
As far as it not hurting anyone, people regurgitate what they read on the internet, and fiction becomes fact, in too many peoples minds. It's pretty self-absorbed to think that uninformed speculation on an rc jet forum, by amateurs would help find a reason for the crash, or be of any use to anyone involved. This will be my last post on this subject.
Again, God bless the crew, passengers, and their families.
Erik
Don't tell me to lighten up. I'm a current and qualified A-320 capt for one of the largest airlines in the world, with over 18,000 hrs of experience, and I take offense to amateurs bloviating dubious speculation about the performance of a professional aircrew. Although pilot error may very well have been a contributing factor, none of us know at this point.
As far as it not hurting anyone, people regurgitate what they read on the internet, and fiction becomes fact, in too many peoples minds. It's pretty self-absorbed to think that uninformed speculation on an rc jet forum, by amateurs would help find a reason for the crash, or be of any use to anyone involved. This will be my last post on this subject.
Again, God bless the crew, passengers, and their families.
Erik
Being a Professional Pilot for over 20 years, I am astounded at the amount of BAD information being speculated on here. Condolences to all the families affected, this was a terrible tragedy.
02-05-2015, 09:20 AM
#34
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/6l...-of-flight-370
The media is clearly a circus - we don't need to feed the circus animals...
Bob
Last edited by rhklenke; 02-05-2015 at 10:45 AM.
02-05-2015, 11:39 AM
#36
Has anyone noticed the #1 engine (assuming that was the one that failed) was NOT feathered? The video clearly shows both props were still turning when the airplane went in. As a King Air pilot, when I conduct training with new PICs I'll demonstrate engine cuts (at altitude of course) with and without autofeather selected. When auto feather is selected, the prop will come to a complete stop in about 2 seconds when you move the associated condition lever to cutoff. If auto feather is not selected, you can manually move the prop lever to feather and achieve the same result. So the question in my mind is why was the failed engine not feathered? They would have had much better single engine performance and quite possibly flown out of this if it was.
02-05-2015, 01:08 PM
#37
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Sorry quickturn but the video is not credible or pertinent information. After watching the video how dare you imply that the pilots made an error in not feathering the prop, or assuming that if they did, they could have flown out of the situation…….. Just kidding…… Maybe your questions will be the same questions the investigators ask each other at some point in their work. It will be interesting to see what they determine was the cause of the crash.
02-05-2015, 02:29 PM
#38
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Ìts interesting from a short video how everyone becomes an expert.and how do you know they didn't help on the bridge.you don't know anything why the plane crashed
02-05-2015, 02:54 PM
#40
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Seriously?!? Here's the bottom line. I'm not trying to figure out the cause. I will read the reports, when they are published, in the interest of educating myself. Uninformed statements, like "Vmc demo", or "cut the good engine and land straight ahead", are extremely disrespectful to the deceased crew. I was just trying to point out that none of us here have any credible, pertinent information about this incident, and have no right to judge any of it.
Don't tell me to lighten up. I'm a current and qualified A-320 capt for one of the largest airlines in the world, with over 18,000 hrs of experience, and I take offense to amateurs bloviating dubious speculation about the performance of a professional aircrew. Although pilot error may very well have been a contributing factor, none of us know at this point.
As far as it not hurting anyone, people regurgitate what they read on the internet, and fiction becomes fact, in too many peoples minds. It's pretty self-absorbed to think that uninformed speculation on an rc jet forum, by amateurs would help find a reason for the crash, or be of any use to anyone involved. This will be my last post on this subject.
Again, God bless the crew, passengers, and their families.
Erik
Don't tell me to lighten up. I'm a current and qualified A-320 capt for one of the largest airlines in the world, with over 18,000 hrs of experience, and I take offense to amateurs bloviating dubious speculation about the performance of a professional aircrew. Although pilot error may very well have been a contributing factor, none of us know at this point.
As far as it not hurting anyone, people regurgitate what they read on the internet, and fiction becomes fact, in too many peoples minds. It's pretty self-absorbed to think that uninformed speculation on an rc jet forum, by amateurs would help find a reason for the crash, or be of any use to anyone involved. This will be my last post on this subject.
Again, God bless the crew, passengers, and their families.
Erik
Don't you just love these pilots that think they are GODS ?
Man, am I sick of it !
So happy that I am retired and do not have to listen to it anymore.
During my whole career in aviation I can probably count on one hand the number of pilots that I felt comfortable flying with and would trust my life to. At no time have I ever heard them doing any bragging. They just did their jobs " safely ".
This is a MODEL AVIATION site. I feel that if anybody has any theories on real life accidents, then donate them to the NTSB !
Last edited by Granpooba; 02-05-2015 at 02:58 PM.
02-05-2015, 07:09 PM
#41
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One of the videos is a little longer and you can see the plane nose high and slow as they are over the buildings. Looked like he was trying to stretch the glide (even though they weren't gliding) or limit his decent rate till they crossed the buildings - it then simply stalled just as they cleared the buildings. They may be heros for avoiding the buildings - but they were just along for the ride when it banked over.
Finding out what happened to one engine will be interesting - but why they couldn't maintain alt on one engine will be the million dollar question.
Finding out what happened to one engine will be interesting - but why they couldn't maintain alt on one engine will be the million dollar question.
02-05-2015, 07:11 PM
#42
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Radar data shows a speed decay down to about 75knots GS correlating with the initial decent. Looks like they held it there up until impact. The stall speed clean on this thing is 105 knots and the Vso is 88 knots at MTOW.
Of course - this is not black box data - but should paint a fairly accurate picture of what happened.
Of course - this is not black box data - but should paint a fairly accurate picture of what happened.
02-05-2015, 07:56 PM
#43
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I too am a 20 year airline pilot, 8 on the 737 and the last 12 on the A320 and I do think that type of experience may provide limited insight in that it allows one to ask certain questions that may be relevant but as always YMMV. Here's what I think: Hint, not worth the bytes holding on to my thoughts 
but hopefully that experience has not gone entirely to waste?
It's human nature to wonder and speculate as to the cause of dramatic events that don't seem at first blush to make sense. Without this curiosity we may have never learned to put fire to work in the first place. As fans of things that fly this crowd in particular will be inclined to wonder why things like this happen. IMO it's normal and to be expected. There are however a couple of different forms this speculation can take. The assumption of facts not in evidence followed by condemnations of the actions of the unfortunate pilots who were trained and qualified (I know big assumption on my part
) by persons not trained, qualified or present at the controls is offensive. The previous is IMO the definition of Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Not just observing a limited set of facts and asking questions but drawing conclusions on them. There are qualified investigators who are legally tasked with determining probable cause. Until that happens the fact that the crash of a large T category aircraft like the ATR 72 is an event of great rarity given the certification requirements of such and based on the simple statistics that accompany accident rates of said AC that again IMO it is completely normal for people to wonder what could have caused such a thing to happen.
As stated the aircraft is certified to continue flight after the failure of one engine so, IF that were the case why could it not? Was there a problem in the feathering mechanism of the failed engine? Was there some type of fuel contamination that affected both engines. Were there multiple complicating factors? There almost always are. If not engine related was there some type of flight control issue that prevented continued flight? What were the human factors involved? What part did weather play? These and many, many other questions will be asked and likely answered by the formal accident investigation. Until then all we can do is speculate from the limited information we have and a remarkable video that while providing evidence is only a very small part of the information required to provide probable cause. As I said speculation is very different than making declarations as to what happened without evidence. One is normal, the other is offensive to the memory of those injured and killed.
I just finished a book called Understanding Air France 447. Written with the best hindsight years of data collection and analysis, yet still having unknowns involved, can provide it is one of the best forensic deconstructions of an accident I've ever read which is pretty much my entire life since my dad was a volunteer accident investigator for the pilots union who was personally involved in quite a few investigations. It's written in layman's terms so even a non pilot could gain a real insight into just what goes into an accident investigation were they curious. The recent Air Asia accident has some of the environmental markers present that came into play during the AF accident leading many in the industry to wonder what if any similarities the two may have in common. These are important questions because IF it turns out the lessons learned from AF did not get passed on to the crew of the Air Asia accident AC it could mean we need to be better at communicating these things. Still we do not KNOW what happened and will wait like everyone else until the facts reveal themselves.
I do find it really sad that someone could fly for an entire career and need to make the statement "During my whole career in aviation I can probably count on one hand the number of pilots that I felt comfortable flying with and would trust my life to." I'd probably find a new career if I really felt that way about the vast majority of my fellow pilots.
but hopefully that experience has not gone entirely to waste?It's human nature to wonder and speculate as to the cause of dramatic events that don't seem at first blush to make sense. Without this curiosity we may have never learned to put fire to work in the first place. As fans of things that fly this crowd in particular will be inclined to wonder why things like this happen. IMO it's normal and to be expected. There are however a couple of different forms this speculation can take. The assumption of facts not in evidence followed by condemnations of the actions of the unfortunate pilots who were trained and qualified (I know big assumption on my part
) by persons not trained, qualified or present at the controls is offensive. The previous is IMO the definition of Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Not just observing a limited set of facts and asking questions but drawing conclusions on them. There are qualified investigators who are legally tasked with determining probable cause. Until that happens the fact that the crash of a large T category aircraft like the ATR 72 is an event of great rarity given the certification requirements of such and based on the simple statistics that accompany accident rates of said AC that again IMO it is completely normal for people to wonder what could have caused such a thing to happen.As stated the aircraft is certified to continue flight after the failure of one engine so, IF that were the case why could it not? Was there a problem in the feathering mechanism of the failed engine? Was there some type of fuel contamination that affected both engines. Were there multiple complicating factors? There almost always are. If not engine related was there some type of flight control issue that prevented continued flight? What were the human factors involved? What part did weather play? These and many, many other questions will be asked and likely answered by the formal accident investigation. Until then all we can do is speculate from the limited information we have and a remarkable video that while providing evidence is only a very small part of the information required to provide probable cause. As I said speculation is very different than making declarations as to what happened without evidence. One is normal, the other is offensive to the memory of those injured and killed.
I just finished a book called Understanding Air France 447. Written with the best hindsight years of data collection and analysis, yet still having unknowns involved, can provide it is one of the best forensic deconstructions of an accident I've ever read which is pretty much my entire life since my dad was a volunteer accident investigator for the pilots union who was personally involved in quite a few investigations. It's written in layman's terms so even a non pilot could gain a real insight into just what goes into an accident investigation were they curious. The recent Air Asia accident has some of the environmental markers present that came into play during the AF accident leading many in the industry to wonder what if any similarities the two may have in common. These are important questions because IF it turns out the lessons learned from AF did not get passed on to the crew of the Air Asia accident AC it could mean we need to be better at communicating these things. Still we do not KNOW what happened and will wait like everyone else until the facts reveal themselves.
I do find it really sad that someone could fly for an entire career and need to make the statement "During my whole career in aviation I can probably count on one hand the number of pilots that I felt comfortable flying with and would trust my life to." I'd probably find a new career if I really felt that way about the vast majority of my fellow pilots.
02-05-2015, 09:57 PM
#44
I used to be an ATR instructor in Toulouse at the A(I)R training center 20 years ago. I've instructed countless number of pilots to handle these engine failures at V1.
The one thing I can say is that a 42/ 72 at MTOW and properly handled will climb at respectively 400 fpm/ 500fpm during a critical engine failure at V1. This is not a lot and the pilot has to use proper technique to keep his speed.
This plane was clearly below VMCa.
Now why this happened is another story. Overloading could be a factor, or other systems failure, improper flying technique, wing shear, and so on...
The one thing I can say is that a 42/ 72 at MTOW and properly handled will climb at respectively 400 fpm/ 500fpm during a critical engine failure at V1. This is not a lot and the pilot has to use proper technique to keep his speed.
This plane was clearly below VMCa.
Now why this happened is another story. Overloading could be a factor, or other systems failure, improper flying technique, wing shear, and so on...
02-05-2015, 10:50 PM
#45
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The crew did call "Mayday, Mayday, engine flameout". Too hard to tell from pics though if 1 actually flamed out or feathered properly. The plane was delivered brand new less than a year ago.
02-06-2015, 02:16 AM
#46
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Looks like we know why it wouldn't maintain altitude.........Kinda hard when you have no engines.
Looks like #2 failed and the pilots shut down #1...................oops.
Also - from sky news
"Thomas Wang, director of the safety council, said: "Based on the data we have so far we can see that for a period of time both engines showed not thrust."
He added: "The right engine flamed out and triggered a warning in the cockpit. The left engine was shut down by command and the pilot tried to restart the engine but couldn't."
Looks like #2 failed and the pilots shut down #1...................oops.
Also - from sky news
"Thomas Wang, director of the safety council, said: "Based on the data we have so far we can see that for a period of time both engines showed not thrust."
He added: "The right engine flamed out and triggered a warning in the cockpit. The left engine was shut down by command and the pilot tried to restart the engine but couldn't."
Last edited by skyhawknut; 02-06-2015 at 02:27 AM.
02-06-2015, 05:41 AM
#47
Looks like we know why it wouldn't maintain altitude.........Kinda hard when you have no engines.
Looks like #2 failed and the pilots shut down #1...................oops.
Also - from sky news
"Thomas Wang, director of the safety council, said: "Based on the data we have so far we can see that for a period of time both engines showed not thrust."
He added: "The right engine flamed out and triggered a warning in the cockpit. The left engine was shut down by command and the pilot tried to restart the engine but couldn't."
Looks like #2 failed and the pilots shut down #1...................oops.
Also - from sky news
"Thomas Wang, director of the safety council, said: "Based on the data we have so far we can see that for a period of time both engines showed not thrust."
He added: "The right engine flamed out and triggered a warning in the cockpit. The left engine was shut down by command and the pilot tried to restart the engine but couldn't."
02-06-2015, 06:22 AM
#48
Blue up...brown down...dead foot...dead engine.
I used it when flying a Piper Apache...and I use it to this day flying the 757 and 767.
This is why on Transport Catagory Aircraft, they say the first immediate action item to perform in any emergency (except in a Rapid D) is to wind your watch. Even if on fire...take your time.
God bless those who were lost.
Beave
I used it when flying a Piper Apache...and I use it to this day flying the 757 and 767.
This is why on Transport Catagory Aircraft, they say the first immediate action item to perform in any emergency (except in a Rapid D) is to wind your watch. Even if on fire...take your time.
God bless those who were lost.
Beave
02-06-2015, 08:48 AM
#49
Wow, what an unfortunate end. God bless those who lost their lives. Attached is a picture of an ATR72-600 office. Looks like a nice turbo prop to fly when everything is working. It just a little bit more modern than one of the Kig Airs I fly part time.
The adage of winding your watch during an emergency is more applicable to jet flying. With a turbo prop you need to identify, verify and feather quickly especially if you don't have autofeather. We use to fly the King Airs single pilot but now crew them with two pilots for safety.
The adage of winding your watch during an emergency is more applicable to jet flying. With a turbo prop you need to identify, verify and feather quickly especially if you don't have autofeather. We use to fly the King Airs single pilot but now crew them with two pilots for safety.
02-06-2015, 09:34 AM
#50
QT,
FWIW...I have over 5,000 hours as a Saab 340 and Super Jetstream Captain (and was a CKA on the Saab) and my adage worked back then too.
The main reason is that the Auto Feather or NTS system will catch it but if not...DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE GOOD ENGINE.
Take your time, evaluate the situation and then respond. I had an actual V1 cut at gross weight IMC in the Saab once and it flew just fine on one...climbed out just like it should and 15 minutes later we were back on the ground...safe as a bug in a rug.
Initial reports say the # 2 rolled back and then it did auto feather. They then apparently shut down and feathered the running # 1 engine.
Its not a race...take your time, get it done and bring it back home.
Beave
FWIW...I have over 5,000 hours as a Saab 340 and Super Jetstream Captain (and was a CKA on the Saab) and my adage worked back then too.
The main reason is that the Auto Feather or NTS system will catch it but if not...DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE GOOD ENGINE.
Take your time, evaluate the situation and then respond. I had an actual V1 cut at gross weight IMC in the Saab once and it flew just fine on one...climbed out just like it should and 15 minutes later we were back on the ground...safe as a bug in a rug.
Initial reports say the # 2 rolled back and then it did auto feather. They then apparently shut down and feathered the running # 1 engine.
Its not a race...take your time, get it done and bring it back home.
Beave
Blue up...brown down...dead foot...dead engine.
I used it when flying a Piper Apache...and I use it to this day flying the 757 and 767.
This is why on Transport Catagory Aircraft, they say the first immediate action item to perform in any emergency (except in a Rapid D) is to wind your watch. Even if on fire...take your time.
God bless those who were lost.
Beave
I used it when flying a Piper Apache...and I use it to this day flying the 757 and 767.
This is why on Transport Catagory Aircraft, they say the first immediate action item to perform in any emergency (except in a Rapid D) is to wind your watch. Even if on fire...take your time.
God bless those who were lost.
Beave
Last edited by bevar; 02-06-2015 at 03:41 PM.
