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DX18's still browning out or is this a valid choice for our jets now?

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DX18's still browning out or is this a valid choice for our jets now?

Old 03-30-2015, 04:35 PM
  #101  
Aerocal
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Originally Posted by Desertlakesflying
Most of the thing I have seen on Spektrum radios have to do more with too little power to the receiver than an actual radio issue
Correct. Loss of voltage at the Rx bus where it is needed is the definition of "brownout". It has nothing to do with the equipment,design or performance. It also has nothing to do with the integrity of the RF connection.
"Power" is a broad term. A minimum voltage must be maintained or the Rx will reboot. The Rx must see good signal from remote(s) to connect when it boots or reboots.
Any lead from source to load is going to have some resistance. With enough load(current/amps) you are going to have some voltage drop from the source(pack,reg,etc) to the load(Rx/servos). Depending on the resistance that drop may be unacceptable and you risk "brownout". This is a setup issue.
Normally if you do have a reboot from loss of voltage when the load is taken off the voltage rebounds and reboot is almost instant.Then it reconnects. If the model has drifted off attitude your probably already holding the sticks in a position to correct when it connects. The surge load may easily be enough to suck the voltage down again and force another reboot and you are stuck in a viscious cycle all the way to the ground. If you are having trouble and its stubborn to connect in the first place this is often a sign of a marginal remote connection. If it reboots and then is stubborn to connect because you didnt remedy the stubborn connection problem it may refuse to connect all the way to the ground.
If you have a marginal remote connection and it becomes intermittent inflight the remaining Rx(s) may end up getting shadowed and you end up in a Hold situation without control until the model happens to turn and reexpose the functioning antennas to the Tx signal.Hopefully before you reach the ground.
There are several scenarios possible and are not an inherent flaw in the system itself. When you Plug and Pray sometimes the prayer doesnt get answered. You need to need to be able to track the important parameters of operation like Rx voltage and antenna/RF performance.
Like I said before many times from personal experience. There are signs that something is going wrong long before a total failure occurs.
Knowing how the system works and how to make it do what its supposed to are the burden of the user. Immediate catastrophic failures are rare.
Old 03-30-2015, 04:39 PM
  #102  
vertical grimmace
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That settles it, I found my new control system!

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Old 03-30-2015, 05:04 PM
  #103  
Aerocal
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Originally Posted by warbird_1
Scott,most guys likely won't have issues and yes i believe i lost the old trusty t-master to spektrum. i came over the top of a loop and my elevator went away. it was on the DX5i . For me i came to a crossroad on weather to go spektrum or JR . I've read a lot more losses from spectrum over JR and futaba. so i decided to stay with JR. though spek has some cool stuff there wasn't enough to pull me away from JR. i listened to some pilots that had a lot more knowledge on things that went on behind the scenes, that for the most part helped me make up my mind plus the new direction that JR went as far as xbus and DMSS. I looked real hard at the futaba 18 but liked the 28 better. You know that you and i are pretty meticulous when it comes to setup and using the right equipment for the right job and we leave the rest to fate. Don't mistake my opinion for running down another manufacturer . like i said... i personally don't trust spek if i did, i'd buy one in a minute . It's all trust. that DX6 you bought , i thought was a nice radio with a good programming layout and some cool perks. ron
DX5i? Im guessing you mean DX5e? While it has its place it is the bottom of the line non computer radio. Comparing its performance to a DX18 or any of the G2 radios is like comparing a Ford to a Fiat. I have to agree with you on the trust issue. If you dont understand what is going on and have no way to find out it can be a confidence killer.
I still dont quite understand how you would compare a DX5e to a DX18 or G2 Spektrum or to one of the XG JR radios. In the end if its what peaks your confidence and works good for you thats the most important thing.
Id like to ask something though. Not in any derogatory way.Just curious since you stated you are meticulous about setup. Do you take advantage of monitoring any of the performance stats of a system on setup or during operation? I dont consider myself meticulous but I take take all reasonable steps to assure my system is going to do what I expect. Before we had telemetry widely available I used an Eagletree logger to graph my voltages and FL data during setup and at least the first few flights. I checked FL data with the little plugin reader box after flights to make sure I wasnt having signal issues.
It alerted me to several problems with remote cables inflight that I never noticed on the ground. It didnt save me from BEC failures though.But when I dug it out of the wreckage it told me exactly what happened when i retreived the data. Once I used telemetry I found that even BECs dont die instantly. If you get a bad servo or its overloaded or just plain weak the minimum voltage will drop a few tenths long before it shuts off. If voltage is sagging for any reason it means land now while you can before you fall out of the sky. Ive been saved a shutdown more than once. Same with FL data alarms. If theres a Rx or Tx problem it generally doesnt happen completely and instantly. You will get momentary Holds with no noticable loss of control long before a complete failure.
Old 03-30-2015, 05:12 PM
  #104  
Aerocal
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Originally Posted by vertical grimmace
That settles it, I found my new control system!

That brings back memories.Super deluxe model with trim control. I had one of those very similar but it was yellow.IIRC it was lost to me leaving it laying out in the backyard and the dog chewed it up.I was pretty upset. My favorite handle. I think I was around 12 or 13. Over 40 years ago. Whoa.
Old 03-30-2015, 05:24 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Aerocal
DX5i? Im guessing you mean DX5e? While it has its place it is the bottom of the line non computer radio. Comparing its performance to a DX18 or any of the G2 radios is like comparing a Ford to a Fiat. I have to agree with you on the trust issue. If you dont understand what is going on and have no way to find out it can be a confidence killer.
I still dont quite understand how you would compare a DX5e to a DX18 or G2 Spektrum or to one of the XG JR radios. In the end if its what peaks your confidence and works good for you thats the most important thing.
Id like to ask something though. Not in any derogatory way.Just curious since you stated you are meticulous about setup. Do you take advantage of monitoring any of the performance stats of a system on setup or during operation? I dont consider myself meticulous but I take take all reasonable steps to assure my system is going to do what I expect. Before we had telemetry widely available I used an Eagletree logger to graph my voltages and FL data during setup and at least the first few flights. I checked FL data with the little plugin reader box after flights to make sure I wasnt having signal issues.
It alerted me to several problems with remote cables inflight that I never noticed on the ground. It didnt save me from BEC failures though.But when I dug it out of the wreckage it told me exactly what happened when i retreived the data. Once I used telemetry I found that even BECs dont die instantly. If you get a bad servo or its overloaded or just plain weak the minimum voltage will drop a few tenths long before it shuts off. If voltage is sagging for any reason it means land now while you can before you fall out of the sky. Ive been saved a shutdown more than once. Same with FL data alarms. If theres a Rx or Tx problem it generally doesnt happen completely and instantly. You will get momentary Holds with no noticable loss of control long before a complete failure.
i wasn't comparing it to anything and yes dx5e . the point is just because it's the cheapest radio it still should work properly. it sounds like your saying because it's a cheap radio it should have or is expected to fail.

Last edited by warbird_1; 03-30-2015 at 05:30 PM.
Old 03-30-2015, 05:34 PM
  #106  
lbuff1
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Love my 2 DX 18's
Traded in my much much much loved JR 12x's and have been very satisfied with the ease of programing and excellent reliability.
Old 03-30-2015, 06:52 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Chris Nicastro
Pretty sure if memory serves JR makes Spektrum for HH, correct me if Im wrong. The product line provides different features and price points for HH. Just like other major brands they make another product line because not everyone likes the primary brand. Oakley for instance makes Dragon eyewear.
I know the menu structure on the lower channel Spektrum models is derived from the JR 9303 menu which was very easy to navigate. The DX18 has some functionality like that from what I could see so far. Ive had mine out of the box twice, not much time to mess with it yet.

My main reasons for the purchase were a) product support b) JR compatibility since I have a lot of equipment c) 18 channels d) built in sequencer e) price $729 with extra free 9ch Rx
I'm disappointed JR 's product line jumps over from the 11X past the teens and into a $2800 28 channel radio. Thats pretty strange and a lapse of customer support. I would have bought a $1000 16-18Ch JR radio if I could but instead Im trying out the DX18.

Until Jeti is more common and proven in the US I have no interest in the system. I have an investment in JR/Spektrum with a perfect track record for 10+ years, amazingly. Plus, Im not a fan of removable switches and more points of failure either on the Tx or in the plane.

The early Spektrum units were made by JR such as the DX7 which was a rebadged JR 7202, At some point Horizon supposedly contracted with some other factory to build the Spektrum units
however I suspect the later units may have been built under license from JR.
Old 03-30-2015, 07:11 PM
  #108  
Zeeb
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Originally Posted by vertical grimmace
That settles it, I found my new control system!

No, no, no..... That model is subject to power brownouts, you need the Jim Walker U-reely..... lol
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Old 03-30-2015, 07:18 PM
  #109  
vertical grimmace
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Funny, the picture of the red "Hot rock" handle is of one I just purchased on the bay. Got a great deal, and they are the best for CL combat.

I must admit, I am a little torn between the Jeti and the Spektrum, but it does not look like the Jeti comes with a RX. So you have to add that to the total price. The ability to send the radio back is a big plus, if I do not like the feel, and I always liked those metal case boxes.
Old 03-31-2015, 12:48 AM
  #110  
Aerocal
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Originally Posted by warbird_1
i wasn't comparing it to anything and yes dx5e . the point is just because it's the cheapest radio it still should work properly. it sounds like your saying because it's a cheap radio it should have or is expected to fail.
Not what I was trying to say at all. It sounded to me like you were basing your decision on whether to get a higher level SPM or JR radio on the performance or lack thereof of an entry level radio. The DX9 and 18 as well as the comparable JR models are in an entirely different class.
Old 03-31-2015, 03:44 AM
  #111  
basimpsn
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"Depending on the resistance that drop may be unacceptable and you risk "brownout".

Can we honestly say...with todays power supply providing 6.6V 5000mAh or 7.4 lipo @5000mAh, should we still worry about "brownouts" I seriously doubt anybody using 4.8V @ 1500mAh battery's nowadays...unless Spektrum using 5v microcontroller in the receivers lol. Another thing... jet's don't use that much amps (I think) to suffer any "brownout" more like 100CC 3D planes doing full aileron deflection for 4min harrier rolls.

I wish all brand receivers would have a built-in led signal strength meter.

Just my opinion.
Old 03-31-2015, 03:57 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by basimpsn
Can we honestly say...with todays power supply providing 6.6V 5000mAh or 7.4 lipo @5000mAh, should we still worry about "brownouts" I seriously doubt anybody using 4.8V @ 1500mAh battery's nowadays

.
I think you would be very surprised at what the average club joe is using for a battery. Likely a single 1500ma or less NiMh. I bet the majority of members in my 160plus member club do not know what an A123 bat. is, let alone where to get one. Local Hobby shops do not sell them.

This is why you read of so many issues with Spek. yet so, few issues from the jet crowd, that and the fact that there are likely 10 times more Spek radios in the market than any other brand.

Mike

Last edited by luv2flyrc; 03-31-2015 at 04:02 AM.
Old 03-31-2015, 05:43 AM
  #113  
rhklenke
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Originally Posted by luv2flyrc
I think you would be very surprised at what the average club joe is using for a battery. Likely a single 1500ma or less NiMh. I bet the majority of members in my 160plus member club do not know what an A123 bat. is, let alone where to get one. Local Hobby shops do not sell them.

This is why you read of so many issues with Spek. yet so, few issues from the jet crowd, that and the fact that there are likely 10 times more Spek radios in the market than any other brand.

Mike
Where do you get that statistic? In my (very normal) club, the ratio of Spektrum to any other radio is probably closer to one-to-one than 10-to one. Lots of guys are now flying the lesser brands like HiTech and Airtronics, and the "off brand" radios too, like FrSky and Turnigy...

ALL of which take one receiver and two antennas, BTW... Oh, and they work fine on the average club guy's 1500 MAh NiMh, just like the old 72 MHz systems did...

Bob
Old 03-31-2015, 07:34 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by rhklenke
Where do you get that statistic? In my (very normal) club, the ratio of Spektrum to any other radio is probably closer to one-to-one than 10-to one. Lots of guys are now flying the lesser brands like HiTech and Airtronics, and the "off brand" radios too, like FrSky and Turnigy...

ALL of which take one receiver and two antennas, BTW... Oh, and they work fine on the average club guy's 1500 MAh NiMh, just like the old 72 MHz systems did...

Bob
Bob, that is my estimate based on feedback from two large Metro Toronto Hobby shops, who claim they almost never sell a Tx other than Spektrum. It may not be 10 to 1, it could be 5 to 1 or 15 to 1, I'm not privy to industry stats even if they are available but, the point is, like Spektrum or not, they enjoy a very large market share.

One of the Spekky software engineers has commented on another forum that they can have production runs as much as 50K units. I seriously doubt that anyone else is running those kinds of #'s.

Based on that kind of market share you would expect to hear of 10 times the failures of Spek vs other brands.

In my own business, where I import some electric goods from Asia ( China and Korea) we expect a 2% failure rate and in fact receive an additional 2% discount on the goods to cover anticipated warranty costs. I doubt any other electronic goods are much different.

Someone else already commented earlier in this thread that even at jet rallies, half the guys are running the Dx-18. At club level, my observation is most run Spek, much lower end ones mind you as an $800 Tx is regarded to be very expensive.

Even if you don't like the product, you have to respect the well oiled marketing machine that is Horizon Hobby. They created the Spek brand and in 8 years or so they have clobbered the competition, many of whom have been around for over 30 years.

You're in denial if you don't think they own the market right now.

Mike
Old 03-31-2015, 09:23 AM
  #115  
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I attend a LOT of events and belong to a large club.

There are way more Spektrum radios in use than the others based on my non-scientific observations.
Old 03-31-2015, 09:40 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by luv2flyrc
I think you would be very surprised at what the average club joe is using for a battery. Likely a single 1500ma or less NiMh. I bet the majority of members in my 160plus member club do not know what an A123 bat. is, let alone where to get one. Local Hobby shops do not sell them.

This is why you read of so many issues with Spek. yet so, few issues from the jet crowd, that and the fact that there are likely 10 times more Spek radios in the market than any other brand.

Mike
You'd be shocked.....Go to any forum where people are talking about Spektrum issues and brownouts and you only have to ask 1 question "What was your battery" .... I've done this before on the spektrum support group on facebook and in other forums.... Every single one comes back with 4.8V NiCad as your answer... and then 10-15 posters will follow with the response, "Its not the battery, I've been using 4.8 for years and never have a problem..." You can talk until your blue in the face, i've tried, I've had no luck convincing people that 1990's battery technology isn't keeping up with today's control systems.

I'm a Futaba guy who is waiting on his DX18 stealth to show up... personally I'm not worried about it b/c I know I'll set itup properly and power it properly.
Old 03-31-2015, 10:16 AM
  #117  
vertical grimmace
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Originally Posted by mattnew
You'd be shocked.....Go to any forum where people are talking about Spektrum issues and brownouts and you only have to ask 1 question "What was your battery" .... I've done this before on the spektrum support group on facebook and in other forums.... Every single one comes back with 4.8V NiCad as your answer... and then 10-15 posters will follow with the response, "Its not the battery, I've been using 4.8 for years and never have a problem..." You can talk until your blue in the face, i've tried, I've had no luck convincing people that 1990's battery technology isn't keeping up with today's control systems.

I'm a Futaba guy who is waiting on his DX18 stealth to show up... personally I'm not worried about it b/c I know I'll set itup properly and power it properly.
You would probably be better off with good Nicd's on your 2.4 then you would Nimh. But then again, why use either with the batteries we have now. I have just about everything converted over to A123 now. I agree that the RX batteries have been the weak link for the most part.
Old 03-31-2015, 12:30 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Aerocal
Not what I was trying to say at all. It sounded to me like you were basing your decision on whether to get a higher level SPM or JR radio on the performance or lack thereof of an entry level radio. The DX9 and 18 as well as the comparable JR models are in an entirely different class.
my decision wasn't based on that one event i had ,it just reinforced my feelings against spek. to clear up something... my feelings were never against spek transmitters ,but the receivers. i consider them the weak link. there has been some talk about JR and spek making components for each other. i find that hard to believe . i think they shared the RF technology but not the manufacturing of hardware. that would make no sense . As much sense as using a spek receiver with a JR radio. My decision to buy the 28 was based on quality and features like the Aluminum chassis and all Aluminum Gimbals and the seamlessly endless programing options.However in all fairness ... there are things i don't like ,like the Android software . The only good thing about that is once you setup your radio, it has no control over you aircraft unless to unlock the screen and change something. Even if the software crashes while in flight , you don't lose control .. because it's only function is to give the radio setup parameters or at least that's the theory. my wish is everyone to go home with their planes intact regardless of what you fly. WB_1
Old 03-31-2015, 12:40 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by vertical grimmace
You would probably be better off with good Nicd's on your 2.4 then you would Nimh. But then again, why use either with the batteries we have now. I have just about everything converted over to A123 now. I agree that the RX batteries have been the weak link for the most part.
i have heard that before and i can say that i agree. i like the discharge rate nicads have , it's very predictable. People got away from nicads because of the weight and room needed for the large size packs. On a side note when you guys were talking about 4.8 volt packs. i tell everyone i see with them to get rid of them and go at least 6.o volt. i was watching the flight pack telemetry on my 28x while cycling the flaps" which have 4 digital servos" and i was shocked to see my voltage go from 6.5 volts to like 5.5 briefly .i'm going to rethink my flight pack. one disadvantage of the new JR receivers is they only have one battery input versus the DMSX recievers with two inputs on most .so you have to go with a more expensive receiver to get the power bus option.

Last edited by warbird_1; 03-31-2015 at 12:42 PM.
Old 03-31-2015, 03:09 PM
  #120  
vertical grimmace
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Originally Posted by warbird_1
i have heard that before and i can say that i agree. i like the discharge rate nicads have , it's very predictable. People got away from nicads because of the weight and room needed for the large size packs. On a side note when you guys were talking about 4.8 volt packs. i tell everyone i see with them to get rid of them and go at least 6.o volt. i was watching the flight pack telemetry on my 28x while cycling the flaps" which have 4 digital servos" and i was shocked to see my voltage go from 6.5 volts to like 5.5 briefly .i'm going to rethink my flight pack. one disadvantage of the new JR receivers is they only have one battery input versus the DMSX recievers with two inputs on most .so you have to go with a more expensive receiver to get the power bus option.

Another issue, at least early on was the JR servos would not take a 6v pack. I think I have even seen the first Spektrum radios come with 4.8v packs in the package. We have come a long way. The radios don't even come with a RX anymore!

From reading a bunch of this thread, and doing some research, I think I am going to get a Jeti DS14 now. Unless someone can talk me out of it. But I can order it with the RX I want and it will still be cheaper than the new Spektrum Stealth. It also has more features out of the gate. I am wondering about the style of the trim tabs though. Just push buttons in an out of the ordinary location. I really like the RX offerings of Jeti though. That is another issue many of these manufacturers are missing the boat on.
Old 03-31-2015, 03:26 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by vertical grimmace
Another issue, at least early on was the JR servos would not take a 6v pack. I think I have even seen the first Spektrum radios come with 4.8v packs in the package. We have come a long way. The radios don't even come with a RX anymore!

From reading a bunch of this thread, and doing some research, I think I am going to get a Jeti DS14 now. Unless someone can talk me out of it. But I can order it with the RX I want and it will still be cheaper than the new Spektrum Stealth. It also has more features out of the gate. I am wondering about the style of the trim tabs though. Just push buttons in an out of the ordinary location. I really like the RX offerings of Jeti though. That is another issue many of these manufacturers are missing the boat on.
you are 100% right on the JR servo comment. Greg Hahn wrote a really good article in " Safety comes first" in the AMA mag a few years back when higher voltage was becoming popular . I check all my servos used if they are 5+ years old.
Old 04-01-2015, 05:11 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by vertical grimmace
Another issue, at least early on was the JR servos would not take a 6v pack. I think I have even seen the first Spektrum radios come with 4.8v packs in the package. We have come a long way. The radios don't even come with a RX anymore!

From reading a bunch of this thread, and doing some research, I think I am going to get a Jeti DS14 now. Unless someone can talk me out of it. But I can order it with the RX I want and it will still be cheaper than the new Spektrum Stealth. It also has more features out of the gate. I am wondering about the style of the trim tabs though. Just push buttons in an out of the ordinary location. I really like the RX offerings of Jeti though. That is another issue many of these manufacturers are missing the boat on.
I wouldn't worry about the Jeti trim buttons. Once you've used Auto Trim you'll find you almost never touch the buttons..
Old 04-01-2015, 07:09 AM
  #123  
Albie1077
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Jeti is the way to go !!! Enjoy the radio when you get it.
Old 04-01-2015, 07:30 AM
  #124  
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Awesome! Thanks guys
Old 04-01-2015, 07:39 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by jfetter
I can hear mine now... "Really?! You call that a snap?!... I may as well end this for both of us right now!"...

Heheh...
Hilarious! Now you have me thinking about buying that DX-18 (spoken by a JR10X flyer).

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