Will building actually make a come back?
04-09-2015, 10:20 PM
#26
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Most everything has its place. Scratch building to building from a quality kit or from a sub-arf to the PNP, it all depends on your wants and needs. Another "KEY" factor is if you have a place to build and not just on the kitchen table after the dishes are cleaned and put away. I'm very fortunate that I have a dedicated building shop and not just a corner of the garage. It makes building any of the above much more enjoyable if you can leave your project alone and come back to it as you can. Not to mention the dust and smells and noise associated with building. There's also the investment of modeling type power tools and such that can be a bit of an issue for some guys. If you are starting from scratch in putting together a shop it can be quite expensive, most of us builders have done this over many years of modeling. I for one love to build, so far. But I also see the merit in just picking up the phone and placing an order for an almost ready to fly or finish air frame in either prop or Jet. I'm also very fortunate to have two boys ages 11 and 16 that love modeling and flying R/C. We have the best father/son time in the shop and those are memories I will never forget, except when the eleven year old uses my CA like he is pouring syrup on a stack of pancakes at IHOP.
If I leave any scraps of wood or fiberglass laying around he is gluing it to his next creation, kinda cool.
We do live in a "push a button want it now kind of world" and that is not what building is about, it just takes dedicating time to it and learning from others. To answer the question if building will ever come back, I don't think it has ever left. There are just less of us around willing or able to do it.
If I leave any scraps of wood or fiberglass laying around he is gluing it to his next creation, kinda cool.We do live in a "push a button want it now kind of world" and that is not what building is about, it just takes dedicating time to it and learning from others. To answer the question if building will ever come back, I don't think it has ever left. There are just less of us around willing or able to do it.
Last edited by Kelly Rohrbach; 04-09-2015 at 10:24 PM.
04-09-2015, 10:55 PM
#27
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I enjoy building and wish more would. I believe it spurs creativity and skills in so many ways. I have many fond memories of watching my Dad build and seeing the building techniques of others and will probably always have a desire to build even if there may be reasons I can't. I think ARFs are just of way of modeling life now. Probably the only thing that would help promote more building would be some type of competition on various levels besides "Top Gun" type events.
04-10-2015, 01:06 AM
#28
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I agree with everything said. There seems to be a generation now of jet flyers that are not able to even screw the engine or servos into an ARTF and have to employ a 'builder' to do it for them. There is no hope of them being able to make an 'old school' kit or a scratch built plane. For those that do scratch build, the fun in making the plane is working out how to make it and solving all the little problems as they surface. I personally love making things and always have since I was a boy. I can remember 60 years ago standing at the top of a small flight external stairs up to the school hobby room and launching our latest gliders off and seeing who could fly the furthest. The planes I make now are not that different but are larger and made of balsa and liteply but do have turbines. The challenge for me now is to make a design that may never have flown either full size or as a model. It certainly makes the maiden memorable. I well remember the Horten I made on its first flight was not quite set up correctly and would only turn left. Dave who flies for me did a brilliant job of making a series of turns to line up with the runway just as the fuel ran out. I am not the slightest bit interested in competitions and feel they are pretty pointless.
I have bought a number of ARTF planes and these are used as models that can be pulled out of storage to go flying with the minimum of work. For me thought yet another F-16 or F-15 is not of the slightest interest. If I am making a scratch built plane I like it as unusual as possible. Early German jet designs are a great source of inspiration.
There are still a few scratch builders in the UK but there are now younger builders coming on the scene to replace them. It has been great to see the skill of those making composite structures, maybe this is the future. It is however a lot more work than balsa bashing but can result in moulds that are used to pull a few fuselages off for friends. In Germany there are still plenty of scratch builders and it is great to go to the shows and see unusual models being flown.
To me there is no future in the old school kits the demand falls year by year. They are an evolutionary link to the ARTF's we know today.
By the way the analogy with cars is not a good one. Take Morgan cars as an example. Plenty of people are prepared to put down deposits and wait 6 months or so. The waiting list was 10 years at one point! People moan about the Chinese ARTF's but they are a far superior product to anything that is produced locally and a wait of 6 months or so is not unreasonable if being made to order with customised paint schemes. There is just the risk of putting cash up front that is a worry. My self I will continue to make some scratch built models as well as owning some ARTFs.
John
I have bought a number of ARTF planes and these are used as models that can be pulled out of storage to go flying with the minimum of work. For me thought yet another F-16 or F-15 is not of the slightest interest. If I am making a scratch built plane I like it as unusual as possible. Early German jet designs are a great source of inspiration.
There are still a few scratch builders in the UK but there are now younger builders coming on the scene to replace them. It has been great to see the skill of those making composite structures, maybe this is the future. It is however a lot more work than balsa bashing but can result in moulds that are used to pull a few fuselages off for friends. In Germany there are still plenty of scratch builders and it is great to go to the shows and see unusual models being flown.
To me there is no future in the old school kits the demand falls year by year. They are an evolutionary link to the ARTF's we know today.
By the way the analogy with cars is not a good one. Take Morgan cars as an example. Plenty of people are prepared to put down deposits and wait 6 months or so. The waiting list was 10 years at one point! People moan about the Chinese ARTF's but they are a far superior product to anything that is produced locally and a wait of 6 months or so is not unreasonable if being made to order with customised paint schemes. There is just the risk of putting cash up front that is a worry. My self I will continue to make some scratch built models as well as owning some ARTFs.
John
04-10-2015, 06:04 AM
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I am part of the old school builders and it's also my profession. Bob has it right, building something nurtures the creative part of my soul. Sadly for most guys now they just want to get in the air or don't have the skills to do what I take as part of the hobby. I would love to see building come back strong but as a lot said already the kits are few and far between. If these guys can't or don't assemble arfs they have no hope in building a kit or even more work building from scratch. Most of you know my wife has been very ill over the last few years. I sitting in her hospice room and just signed in to pass some time today before visitors arrive. Building will be my salvation when she is gone soon if the doctors are right.
04-10-2015, 06:42 AM
#32
Sorry to hear this Ron. Hang in their
I am part of the old school builders and it's also my profession. Bob has it right, building something nurtures the creative part of my soul. Sadly for most guys now they just want to get in the air or don't have the skills to do what I take as part of the hobby. I would love to see building come back strong but as a lot said already the kits are few and far between. If these guys can't or don't assemble arfs they have no hope in building a kit or even more work building from scratch. Most of you know my wife has been very ill over the last few years. I sitting in her hospice room and just signed in to pass some time today before visitors arrive. Building will be my salvation when she is gone soon if the doctors are right.
04-10-2015, 06:58 AM
#33
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Scale competition was one of the strong driving forces for building .
Unfortunately, they have also surrendered to the ARF force. Even in Expert Class, a repainted ARF is allowed and accepted to comply with the "Builder of the Model Rule".
You really have to enjoy building to swallow that your 2 year work is competing against a nice paint job.
Competitions like the JWM eliminated the Rule, thus making it a fistfight between profesional builders.
Another consideration nowadays is the huge difference in pain between crashing an ARF and crashing your long hours of proud work.
So, I guess it all comes down to personal satisfaction and pride as the only reasons for building. And I am sure that there are a lot of us doing it.
Jack
Unfortunately, they have also surrendered to the ARF force. Even in Expert Class, a repainted ARF is allowed and accepted to comply with the "Builder of the Model Rule".
You really have to enjoy building to swallow that your 2 year work is competing against a nice paint job.
Competitions like the JWM eliminated the Rule, thus making it a fistfight between profesional builders.
Another consideration nowadays is the huge difference in pain between crashing an ARF and crashing your long hours of proud work.
So, I guess it all comes down to personal satisfaction and pride as the only reasons for building. And I am sure that there are a lot of us doing it.
Jack
04-10-2015, 07:06 AM
#34
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I think you guys are also forgetting that its not just building skills that are going away, I worked at a Autozone for a little bit when I was younger, and I couldn't belive how many MEN could not even install there own batterys or tail lights, these hands on skills are slowly going away.
For me its Fear that has kept me away from kit building,
Im trying, I have been flying 4 years now, and every year I try to take on something that is closer to being a kit vs bashing a ARF.
My biggest bash was makeing a Byron F16 into a turbine modle, fiberglass and all, I even made my own fiberglass fuel cells.
I just got a fiberglass PST old non panelined fuze for the Ziorli Panther, Im getting the parts togeather for. But its the Fear, of speending all this time and what feels like extra money on somthing that may not work, So becouse of these fears I find my self over building / Modfing ARFs.
But this Panther will be my first kit, I would also love to stick build a BalsaUSA gaint Ablatross, but its my lack of building skills has me scared of messing it up.
Some of you master builders need to reach out to the younger guys at your feild and try to help them get the skills and confandce in building, Heck the Great (to Me) Mike Barbee who is going to TopGun this year with his be WildCat has taught me more than I have ever learned from this site and youtube.
Also that brings up another good point, if you are going to stick build, try to make short vids and put them on youtube, you would be supprized how much peaple like me are looking around for vids on how to stick build a project, as we have becoume more visual....
For me its Fear that has kept me away from kit building,
Im trying, I have been flying 4 years now, and every year I try to take on something that is closer to being a kit vs bashing a ARF.
My biggest bash was makeing a Byron F16 into a turbine modle, fiberglass and all, I even made my own fiberglass fuel cells.
I just got a fiberglass PST old non panelined fuze for the Ziorli Panther, Im getting the parts togeather for. But its the Fear, of speending all this time and what feels like extra money on somthing that may not work, So becouse of these fears I find my self over building / Modfing ARFs.
But this Panther will be my first kit, I would also love to stick build a BalsaUSA gaint Ablatross, but its my lack of building skills has me scared of messing it up.
Some of you master builders need to reach out to the younger guys at your feild and try to help them get the skills and confandce in building, Heck the Great (to Me) Mike Barbee who is going to TopGun this year with his be WildCat has taught me more than I have ever learned from this site and youtube.
Also that brings up another good point, if you are going to stick build, try to make short vids and put them on youtube, you would be supprized how much peaple like me are looking around for vids on how to stick build a project, as we have becoume more visual....
04-10-2015, 08:27 AM
#35
I think you guys are also forgetting that its not just building skills that are going away, I worked at a Autozone for a little bit when I was younger, and I couldn't belive how many MEN could not even install there own batterys or tail lights, these hands on skills are slowly going away.
For me its Fear that has kept me away from kit building,
Im trying, I have been flying 4 years now, and every year I try to take on something that is closer to being a kit vs bashing a ARF.
My biggest bash was makeing a Byron F16 into a turbine modle, fiberglass and all, I even made my own fiberglass fuel cells.
I just got a fiberglass PST old non panelined fuze for the Ziorli Panther, Im getting the parts togeather for. But its the Fear, of speending all this time and what feels like extra money on somthing that may not work, So becouse of these fears I find my self over building / Modfing ARFs.
But this Panther will be my first kit, I would also love to stick build a BalsaUSA gaint Ablatross, but its my lack of building skills has me scared of messing it up.
Some of you master builders need to reach out to the younger guys at your feild and try to help them get the skills and confandce in building, Heck the Great (to Me) Mike Barbee who is going to TopGun this year with his be WildCat has taught me more than I have ever learned from this site and youtube.
Also that brings up another good point, if you are going to stick build, try to make short vids and put them on youtube, you would be supprized how much peaple like me are looking around for vids on how to stick build a project, as we have becoume more visual....
For me its Fear that has kept me away from kit building,
Im trying, I have been flying 4 years now, and every year I try to take on something that is closer to being a kit vs bashing a ARF.
My biggest bash was makeing a Byron F16 into a turbine modle, fiberglass and all, I even made my own fiberglass fuel cells.
I just got a fiberglass PST old non panelined fuze for the Ziorli Panther, Im getting the parts togeather for. But its the Fear, of speending all this time and what feels like extra money on somthing that may not work, So becouse of these fears I find my self over building / Modfing ARFs.
But this Panther will be my first kit, I would also love to stick build a BalsaUSA gaint Ablatross, but its my lack of building skills has me scared of messing it up.
Some of you master builders need to reach out to the younger guys at your feild and try to help them get the skills and confandce in building, Heck the Great (to Me) Mike Barbee who is going to TopGun this year with his be WildCat has taught me more than I have ever learned from this site and youtube.
Also that brings up another good point, if you are going to stick build, try to make short vids and put them on youtube, you would be supprized how much peaple like me are looking around for vids on how to stick build a project, as we have becoume more visual....
I dont consider myself a master, but I AM the younger guy in my club at the age of 31.
Age has nothing to do with building. Its the Desire. I could take twenty people of all ages and try to teach them to build. If none of them have the desire to build, they wont learn.
when i got started in this hobby 25 years ago, if you wanted to fly, you had to build. Arf's were just coming into the market and they were expensive, you could build from a kit cheaper. As the years have gone by, kits have gotten more expensive and Arfs have gotten so cheap you cant build a kit for what you can buy a similar ARF for. Now that you can buy into a flying model with minimal emotional involvement by not having to do so much as screw in some parts, the build to fly has turned into buy to fly.
Last edited by invertmast; 04-10-2015 at 08:31 AM.
04-10-2015, 08:52 AM
#38
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All good stuff guys. When I started this thread, I was a little short on time. But have been wanting to discuss this topic for awhile.
I've always thought that arf's have a place but the level that they're at now has basically dummed down the modeling community. It seems a lot of guys just can't figure stuff out anymore.
I was hoping that the bad business models of the arf manufacturers would steer some back to building. And it likely has.
I have several projects lined up, none of which are arf's.
I've always thought that arf's have a place but the level that they're at now has basically dummed down the modeling community. It seems a lot of guys just can't figure stuff out anymore.
I was hoping that the bad business models of the arf manufacturers would steer some back to building. And it likely has.
I have several projects lined up, none of which are arf's.
04-10-2015, 10:14 AM
#41
Originally Posted by [email protected]
you people who say you dont have time to build i always found time i think your just lazy
. Its just not on my current priority list in life right now 
Voy
04-10-2015, 10:59 AM
#42
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Is your problem ARF vs building, or the death of brick-and-mortar hobby shops? Where there's a real hobby store, you pays your money and you takes your toy home. I'm happy to be able to say there's a real, old school type hobby store within driving distance, and that I will gladly drive and pay a bit more. I may buy the same ARF, but at least it follows me home!
04-10-2015, 12:42 PM
#43
Scale competition was one of the strong driving forces for building .
Unfortunately, they have also surrendered to the ARF force. Even in Expert Class, a repainted ARF is allowed and accepted to comply with the "Builder of the Model Rule".
You really have to enjoy building to swallow that your 2 year work is competing against a nice paint job.
Competitions like the JWM eliminated the Rule, thus making it a fistfight between profesional builders.
Another consideration nowadays is the huge difference in pain between crashing an ARF and crashing your long hours of proud work.
So, I guess it all comes down to personal satisfaction and pride as the only reasons for building. And I am sure that there are a lot of us doing it.
Jack
Unfortunately, they have also surrendered to the ARF force. Even in Expert Class, a repainted ARF is allowed and accepted to comply with the "Builder of the Model Rule".
You really have to enjoy building to swallow that your 2 year work is competing against a nice paint job.
Competitions like the JWM eliminated the Rule, thus making it a fistfight between profesional builders.
Another consideration nowadays is the huge difference in pain between crashing an ARF and crashing your long hours of proud work.
So, I guess it all comes down to personal satisfaction and pride as the only reasons for building. And I am sure that there are a lot of us doing it.
Jack
I still have some ARFs to keep me flying, but now I also have plans for the next two planes I'm going to build after the Hunter. It is a struggle to find time to build, and I also have to work in the maintenance and repair of my flying fleet (which is two ARFs and a scratch-built 110% size Ziroli Panther), but that's part of the deal...
Bob
04-10-2015, 12:43 PM
#44
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ARF's have divided but not conquered. In decades past you had a building 'bubble' where it didn't matter if you liked it or not most of us had to succumb to building in order to partake of flight. With ARFs this is no longer the case. You have a choice, and now this pops the demand in kits, etc, so these companies struggle when there's not enough prey. So that's why there is a division of interests and followings here, but step back and realize even though the masses who will continue to build are fewer they are not gone. Fortunately for those who enjoy sniffing glue it's still a niche to fill just smaller and guess who will still supply your 5 meter rolls of covering film for 12 bucks a roll? Not Tower. The landscape is a little different but building is still alive and well. It boils down to the fact that for enough of us that IS the hobby and someone will always rise to meet that demand.
04-10-2015, 04:06 PM
#46
So, I guess it all comes down to personal satisfaction and pride as the only reasons for building. And I am sure that there are a lot of us doing it.
When people ask me what it's made from I tell them trees.
John.
04-10-2015, 04:52 PM
#48
It's a scratch build, Voy.
It started as my first jet, now it's looking like my 4th! Promise to myself - finish this before starting another jet.
about 2 x 2 metres with a Wren SS.
John.
It started as my first jet, now it's looking like my 4th! Promise to myself - finish this before starting another jet.
about 2 x 2 metres with a Wren SS.
John.
04-10-2015, 05:09 PM
#49
RCU Moniters I AM NOT SPAMING I'm trying to save the Hobby/Sport so we must stop the FAA from Implimenting the NPRM into FAR's as Written.
This is dispite some people belief that it soesn't pertain to our TOY airplanes when it most deffinatly will if inacted as written.
Every AMA member should of gotten this Notic from the AMA Read it Watch it And Comment on the NPRM before April 24th. It's Vital to our hoby with what the FAA wants and will do if we don't make objection to it ... For those that belive the NPRM as written and feature FAR's it will make DO NOT only pertain to Comerical Use of sUAS and TOY MODEL AIR PLANES. It (if inacted as written into FAR's it will out lay any thing over 55 lbs any thing over 87 MPH Max altitude 500' ext.
Please read and watch the video and then comment to the FAA before ther take yout TOY airplanes away or make tham Useless and worthless, if they can. Government will take anything U don't veitmently protect.
U should of recieved this today but check It out Here.
http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe561...0575741372&r=0
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Take Action to Help Preserve Model Aviation's Future. Comment on the FAA NPRM.
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[TD]View on view.exacttarget.com
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[TD]
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This is dispite some people belief that it soesn't pertain to our TOY airplanes when it most deffinatly will if inacted as written.
Every AMA member should of gotten this Notic from the AMA Read it Watch it And Comment on the NPRM before April 24th. It's Vital to our hoby with what the FAA wants and will do if we don't make objection to it ... For those that belive the NPRM as written and feature FAR's it will make DO NOT only pertain to Comerical Use of sUAS and TOY MODEL AIR PLANES. It (if inacted as written into FAR's it will out lay any thing over 55 lbs any thing over 87 MPH Max altitude 500' ext.
Please read and watch the video and then comment to the FAA before ther take yout TOY airplanes away or make tham Useless and worthless, if they can. Government will take anything U don't veitmently protect.
U should of recieved this today but check It out Here.
http://view.exacttarget.com/?j=fe561...0575741372&r=0
[TABLE="class: link-enhancr-element, width: 450"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5E5E5, colspan: 8"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 1, bgcolor: #E5E5E5"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD="colspan: 2"]Take Action to Help Preserve Model Aviation's Future. Comment on the FAA NPRM.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]View on view.exacttarget.com
[/TD]
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Preview by Yahoo
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Last edited by HoundDog; 04-10-2015 at 05:51 PM. Reason: URL
04-10-2015, 05:12 PM
#50
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Judging from the amount of replies on here, and all of them builders or scratch builders.. I would say that kit building is alive and well. Sadly though the ARF assemblers out number us.
My first Turbine ARF was/is the Boomerang Sprint. Next model was a Philip Avonds F-104 Kit that had several components missing that I had to scratch build. After that I said I would never build another kit.. but the truth is, I just loved the challenge. 2 years later I am now scratch building, and though I work 60-70hrs a week as a welder... I still find time to work on my latest project, and am always glad I did.
Its just very very rewarding to build your own plane, and watch as it develops.
My first Turbine ARF was/is the Boomerang Sprint. Next model was a Philip Avonds F-104 Kit that had several components missing that I had to scratch build. After that I said I would never build another kit.. but the truth is, I just loved the challenge. 2 years later I am now scratch building, and though I work 60-70hrs a week as a welder... I still find time to work on my latest project, and am always glad I did.
Its just very very rewarding to build your own plane, and watch as it develops.