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Sebart Mini Avanti w/ K45 build thread

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Old 05-12-2015, 08:34 AM
  #1
DrScoles
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Default Sebart Mini Avanti w/ K45 build thread

Jason from SebartUSA has asked me to do a build thread on the new Mini Avanti that will be available soon. It is designed for EDF or turbine and has been flown with the P20. He and I discussed that a lot of people, myself included, would gravitate towards the new KingTech K45 due to the increased thrust and it being nearly half the price of the P20. I agreed to be the test subject for this combination knowing that I am on my own as far as seeing whether or not the airframe and K45 are a good combination. Hopefully, I will come up with some useful information, good or bad for the rest of you. This combo with 30oz of fuel should be about 1.5 pounds more than the P20 powered equivalent. I think overall weight is more of a concern than too much thrust. I can dial down the turbine, I can't dial down the weight.

I have the xicoy balancer and will weigh the plane as I go to show component weight and overall weight.

I received the kit last week. Very nice surprise is that the electric gear and gear doors are already installed! The nose gear doors also come with servos and have a sequencer in the controller for the gear. Nose steering servo is also installed and ready to plug in. The retracts are metal, and look like they are up to task. I have not pulled them from the wings yet to inspect the mounts. I will do that and report back. Since this is a turbine, and I fly at an AMA field, I need brakes. So, I will be adding electric brakes.

A gentleman on RCU did a build thread on the electric. I chose the same servos he did knowing they would be drop in. The Spektrum 4030 is a metal gear servo with 83 oz of torque at 6v. I am using s.bus with Futaba 18mz. Three SBD-1 adaptors will be needed to convert the servos. The spectrum servo is $39, even with the cost of the three adaptors, this is much cheaper than buying s.bus servos. Still get the convenience of less wiring and easy programming with the s.bus.

The kit does not come with a pipe. Grumania will custom make one, and the wren 44 pipe may work. Have to measure once I get the turbine in and I will share size and cost of each.

My initial impression is that I really like the size. Its not too big to handle, I think you could get it in your truck or SUV without taking the wings off. Fit and finish is very nice. We are all conditioned to having composite wings, this is built up and covered, but very nicely done. This is gonna be a quick build, not a lot to this plane, particularly when the gear is already done for you.

Here are a few pics, and I will break up the rest and explain by process.

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Old 05-12-2015, 08:38 AM
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This kit was designed for EDF, no fuel tank is available. I thought about making one, I used to build foam core, fiberglass/carbon vacuum bagged kite boards, I know the process, just don't have the time. So, I bought every size of dubro fuel tank from 10-20 oz and will mix and match to figure out 26-30oz of fuel. I have to have at least 5 min flight times. The fuel burn on the KT45 is 5oz a minute. I am always somewhat skeptical of that figure, so will figure out on my own. 2oz header tank. Dreamworks has a 30oz "header" tank made out of kevlar, its $130, I got 5 of the dubro tanks for $25. I can see this being an entry level kit for some modelers and will keep that in mind with my equipment choices.

The narrowest width between the inlets is 2.5 inches, but lots of vertical height, so I will stack two on top of each other.
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Old 05-12-2015, 08:54 AM
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I have the Mini Avanti coming for my Wren 44. I will be pushing the engine as far forward as I can. The inlets do not look structural so I will be cutting the tops of them away. Can you confirm if they are structural? I will be using a 32oz dubro tank sideways with no header tank. I will be using a GBR filter clunk.

I weighed my Wren44, accessories, tank, and pipe. It came to 54oz. My Jetfan 90 with speed control and 6s5000 battery weighed 54oz. So the only difference should be fuel weight at takeoff.
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:06 AM
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I want one, I have some mini minions that will fit perfect
plus having something to fly anywhere would be nice

who sells it?

Last edited by FenderBean; 05-12-2015 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:21 AM
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My KT45 serial # 005 is waiting patiently for the Mini Avanti S delivery.... A friend of mine who got his Mini Avanti with the first shipment and has serial #001 KT45 ordered the pipe through Tam (54mm wide and 450mm long) and he is very happy with it. He should be ready for maiden flight this week.

I'm curious how the struts / retracts will hold up with a slightly heavier KT45 compare to P20..

Thanks DrScoles for this built thread..

David
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:28 AM
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I am concerned about rough fields as well. The primary reason I wanted more power. As stated above, take off weight is similar to an EDF, but landing weight will be over two pounds less! Positive fact that the landing gear will be less loaded on landing with a turbine… ;-) This gear looks superior to my eflite gear on my habu 32 and it handled the bumpy runway at my field fine.

The inlets do not appear structural.
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Old 05-12-2015, 09:30 AM
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Here is a video of the nose gear cycling. No programming necessary, just plug one channel in for gear, and one for steering… very clean.

http://

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Old 05-12-2015, 09:41 AM
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Real nice nose gear cycling... let us know how you go about installing the fuel tanks and capacity..

Thanks
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:10 AM
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Thank you for putting this thread together DrScoles!

And for those interested you can see the EDF version build thread here, plus here's a video showing the Mini Avanti S flying with the stock/recommended all-metal 12-blade 90mm EDF/motor and ESC combo with a 6S 5000mAh battery (top speed is about 120-130 mph and flight time is around 4 minutes with 5000mAh batteries or up to 5.5 minutes with 6600mAh batteries):

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_143165598269810&key=8a24c98a696b4e5723db293f62190b87&libId=i9oyxsfa010004o4000DA4k7etlv3&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rcgroups.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2330708%26page%3D22%26highlight%3Dvideo%23post30784062&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flylowandfast.com%2FFiles%2FVideo%2FAvantiS%2FSebart%2520Mini%2520AvantiS%25203%2520(No%2520Music)%2520(HD%2520720P_L).mp4&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rcgroups.com%2Fforums%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D50823993%26query%3Dvideo&title=SebArt%20Mini%20Avanti%20S%20Jet%20for%2090mm%20EDF%20or%20P20%20Turbine%20Power%20Build%20Thread%20-%20Page%2022%20-%20RC%20Groups&txt=Sebart%20Mini%20AvantiS%20Jet This quick video shows a take off with a P20 turbine powered version...be sure to click the 'HD' button near the bottom right-hand corner (top speed is about 130-140 mph and flight time is around 5.5 minutes with 22 ounces of fuel):

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v...83&pnref=story


And here are the important specs:

Official Specifications:
Wing Span: 54 in (1360mm)
Length: 56 in (1420mm)
Wing Area: 589 sq in (38 sq dm)

With Recommended EDF Power System
Weight (Less Battery): 6.2-6.6 lbs (2.8-3.0 kg)
Battery (w/Recommended 6S EDF setup): 6S 22.2V 5000-6600mAh

With Recommended P20 Turbine
Weight (Less Fuel): 6.6-6.8 lbs (3.0-3.1 kg)
Stock Fuel Tank: 22 oz (650cc)

On a related note, for anyone interested in installing a turbine larger than 20-30N class in the Mini Avanti S please keep the following in mind:

PLEASE NOTE: WARRANTY IS VOID AND SEBART RC USA/SEBART INTERNATIONAL ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY FAILURES OF THE MINI AVANTI S AIRFRAME, CRASHES, DAMAGE, INJURY, ETC. WHEN ELECTRIC DUCTED FAN (EDF) AND/OR BATTERY SETUPS THAT ARE CONSIDERABLY MORE POWERFUL AND/OR HEAVIER THAN THE SETUPS OFFICIALLY RECOMMENDED OR A TURBINE LARGER THAN 20-30N CLASS ARE USED. When using the officially recommended EDF/battery setups or turbines the warranty does not cover any parts damaged by use or modification, and in no case shall SebArt RC USA’s/SebArt International’s liability exceed the original cost of the product.

UPDATED 5/14/2015:

Also, for customers located in North America (for those outside of North America please contact your nearest SebArt distributor for more information on pricing and availability: http://www.sebart.it/distributors.html) the special pre-order price is $499.99 ($100 off the regular price of $599.99, plus shipping) for the ARF airframe including the factory-installed all-metal electric retracts with struts and wheels, 2 servos for the nose gear doors, a sequencer and 1 servo for the nose gear steering (less power system and the remaining radio gear). We're also offering special pre-order pricing for all of the recommended accessories including the turbine conversion/installation kit, a 90mm EDF with motor, ESC and BEC, Hitec servo and extension sets, chargers, DinogyLiPos batteries and more as listed in the product and price list attached below. And to lock in the special pre-order pricing we will require a deposit of 50% for all applicable items approximately 45-90 days before the shipment arrives.

We also have the final dimensions/weight for the box now (it's relatively large at 60 x 20 x 14 inches and 18 pounds) and when you place your pre-order we can calculate the actual shipping cost depending on your shipping address and our discounted rates with various carriers (and the average cost is around $60 to most addresses in the 48 contiguous states).

And although the first large shipment that's expected to arrive in June is already sold out we are accepting pre-orders for the second shipment that's currently expected to arrive around the middle of September. That said we do expect to end up with more pre-orders than the number of models arriving in that shipment as well so we strongly suggest pre-ordering sooner than later! And for customers in North America you can place a pre-order with us by email (or phone) per the following (sorry, we are not able to accept pre-orders via a web site at this time):

To place a pre-order by email please send the following to Sales@SebArtRC.com

1) Your choice of trim/color scheme (Blue/White/Red 'classic' or Gold/White/Red 'style'...you can also let us know 'either' if you don't mind which trim/color scheme you get in case we run out of one before the other).

2) Your choice of any recommended accessories

3) Billing address

4) Shipping address

5) Phone number

After we receive your email we'll enter then confirm your pre-order with an email response (typically within 24-72 hours). Then, approximately 45-60 days before the shipment arrives we will contact you to re-confirm your pre-order, and after you confirm we'll send you a PayPal invoice for the 50% deposit (and no worries if you don't have a PayPal account...you won't be required to setup an account and you'll still be able to pay via PayPal using just about any credit card, debit card or checking account).
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:46 AM
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Looks great, I loved my p20 Habu but it really needed 35n and not 25.

Watching this thread with interest as it looks like a nice combo!
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:57 AM
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Just put in my order for a Avanti with Jason today. Missed out on the current shipment but will get it this Fall. Also plan to put the K45 in it, so by then everyone should have the bugs worked out on the best setup for it.
DrScoles what servos are you planning on using on the flight surfaces.
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Old 05-12-2015, 02:30 PM
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Spektrum 4030. I listed in the first post. They are near drop in. Maybe 2/10ths of a mm to reduce on the ends where the elevator and flaps go in. I use the boxes that futaba and jr servos come in to mix epoxy, these spectrum boxes are awesome! They have a lid that actually closes and secures…

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Old 05-12-2015, 09:49 PM
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Will be fun to se where the AUW goes. If it comes in close to the 2.5kg shown I'm very impressed. :-)
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Old 05-12-2015, 10:19 PM
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Interesting to see this build thread but I cant help thinking that a 45 is too much power and weight for this airframe to fly nice
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Old 05-13-2015, 02:12 AM
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We are all waiting patiently to see if this turns out to be a great combo. Will be great if the frame can balance out without dead weight in the nose.

Chatty
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Old 05-13-2015, 04:46 AM
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Len
 
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A friend and I are patiently waiting to see if we are in the June shipment or have to wait for the fall shipment of Mini Avantis. My K45 is on the way now! Thanks for the build thread DrScoles!
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Old 05-13-2015, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henke Torphammar View Post
Will be fun to se where the AUW goes. If it comes in close to the 2.5kg shown I'm very impressed. :-)

Henke, no servos in this pic. Just the plane, landing gear and all of the turbine stuff.

the EDF version and the P-20 version weigh around 8.3-8.5 pounds. I'm hoping this will be under ten full of gas. It should weigh less than 8.5 on landing :-) So, as far as stress to the gear goes, it should be less than the EDF version.
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Old 05-13-2015, 08:10 AM
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DrScoles where do you fly Jets? Do you just go out to Wenatchee or is there another good field around here?
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Old 05-13-2015, 08:14 AM
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Hi Alex, whidbey island is the only place we can routinely fly jets. Our private field in monroe has given us a provisional chance to fly jets in the wet months. I've been to wenatchee once, amazing field! Whidbey is a little closer time wise.
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Old 05-13-2015, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrScoles View Post
Henke, no servos in this pic. Just the plane, landing gear and all of the turbine stuff.

the EDF version and the P-20 version weigh around 8.3-8.5 pounds. I'm hoping this will be under ten full of gas. It should weigh less than 8.5 on landing :-) So, as far as stress to the gear goes, it should be less than the EDF version.
My AUW (electric) on 6S x 5,000 is 7.9 lbs, on 6S x 6,600 it's 8.3 lbs...

Jack
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:02 AM
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Dr are you going to be at KY Jets this year?
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:11 AM
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Hi Jack, your 6s setup is super nice. Would you say an apples to apples comparison could more closely compare with a high power, 10s setup? I'd imagine the weight to be at least a pound heavier for that setup (8.6+ pounds for a 10s 4000mah config with a 4minute 45sec flight time, 8+ pounds installed thrust, heavier for more flight time packs). These guys will have probably more than 9.5 pounds of "installed thrust" (after a half pound thrust loss due to the pipe) and 700mph efflux / exhaust speed. Flight times on the K45 ought to be about 7 minutes from wheels up to touch down with another minute to spare for go arounds but that depends on how heavy they want the first minute of flight to be as they can add or subtract based on preferences - and of course, no one has run the K45 in this setup yet so we don't know what the fuel burn is yet for the average motor.

So for 2 minutes she'll be heavy and for the rest of the flight she'll fly like the electric 10s and lighter the longer she's up, potentially. The last 2 minutes she'll be a light weight scalded cat at about the weight of a 6s electric.

I could see for guys with no investment in electric chargers, big packs to share with other electric planes, etc, this could be a really nice "high power" setup. For most electric guys, the cost of getting a nice light weight 6s or a heavy 10s up and running would be minimal and the performance would be close to or exceed turbine performance depending when you decide to "observe" performance between the two, during the flight... but at shorter flight times.

All that being said, I think even lead thumbs will agree, with smaller jets, the edge on comparison goes to lower flight weight. On bigger jets, it's thrust.

I'm really interested in learning more about the K45 for another jet I'm building right now. It would be a twin engine setup.
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:45 AM
  #23
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i'm from italy, i follow with interest this build thread, when you have update and new pictures write please, i want to say if this plane can fly with this turbine, sebastiano silvestri suggest to mount p20 class turbine, but is very expensive, if this jet can fly without problem with k45 turbines i buy it, also drscoles when you have the tail pipe put the information abot lenght, manifacturer of it, about fuel tank what you think to use? how many oz?
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:46 AM
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Thanks for the numbers Jack, feel free to chime in at any time with build tips!

Keith, I have two small kids, attending jet events is a distant memory… Hopefully, in a few years, if they show interest, it could be a family activity. I have a hard enough time going to our local jet event for three straight days.
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Old 05-13-2015, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie P View Post
Hi Jack, your 6s setup is super nice. Would you say an apples to apples comparison could more closely compare with a high power, 10s setup? I'd imagine the weight to be at least a pound heavier for that setup (8.6+ pounds for a 10s 4000mah config with a 4minute 45sec flight time, 8+ pounds installed thrust, heavier for more flight time packs). These guys will have probably more than 9.5 pounds of "installed thrust" (after a half pound thrust loss due to the pipe) and 700mph efflux / exhaust speed. Flight times on the K45 ought to be about 7 minutes from wheels up to touch down with another minute to spare for go arounds but that depends on how heavy they want the first minute of flight to be as they can add or subtract based on preferences - and of course, no one has run the K45 in this setup yet so we don't know what the fuel burn is yet for the average motor.

So for 2 minutes she'll be heavy and for the rest of the flight she'll fly like the electric 10s and lighter the longer she's up, potentially. The last 2 minutes she'll be a light weight scalded cat at about the weight of a 6s electric.

I could see for guys with no investment in electric chargers, big packs to share with other electric planes, etc, this could be a really nice "high power" setup. For most electric guys, the cost of getting a nice light weight 6s or a heavy 10s up and running would be minimal and the performance would be close to or exceed turbine performance depending when you decide to "observe" performance between the two, during the flight... but at shorter flight times.

All that being said, I think even lead thumbs will agree, with smaller jets, the edge on comparison goes to lower flight weight. On bigger jets, it's thrust.

I'm really interested in learning more about the K45 for another jet I'm building right now. It would be a twin engine setup.
My 6S (stock) setup has about 5.5 lbs thrust and tops out @ 122 MPH flat and level, it will fly about 4 minutes, a little more if not heavy on the throttle. The second one we're building will run 10S 3,300 mAh and have over 9 lbs of thrust, that's a 4oz heavier battery but also 4 ounces less fan total weight by using the JetFan 90mm with an inrunner (versus the JP fan and outrunner stock setup). The pilot in the mini videos from my build thread (who is building the second one) doesn't want even an ounce more weight, he loves the way it fly's @ 7.9 lbs so that's what drove that setup we're trying next. We expect 75 Amps max and 5 minutes flight time with unlimited vertical...

Jack

Last edited by jfetter; 05-13-2015 at 09:55 AM.
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