Shaun Evans

Hi,

Not to open a Pandora's box here, but I was a little deflated to get my new Model Airplane News mag in the mail and see the front cover. I got all excited when I saw Jack's Magister, but when I looked at the full article, it seemed like Top Gun is just an ARF show these days (as far as jets go, anyway). One of the featured entrants is a jet marketed as a 'Plug-n-Play' jet. Is that pretty much the way the Top Gun jet scene is going these days? Even at Top Gun, you don't need to be a builder? What's the ratio now?

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

Frank said in the article that the reason things are changing is because true builders are getting harder to find, clearly nothing like the old days when if you wanted something you had to build it. In order to keep attendance up and not just have a few old crusty builders show up, he needed to change with the times. I'm not sure how I feel, things change, so if they are having fun then it's fine.

Shaun Evans

DB,

I like that response. Your tag line, too!

SECRET AGENT

My Feedback: (18)

My question is will the true craftsman who builds everything from scratch be given any more points than the guy who has enough money to 3D print all the little details?

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

So you're saying that if I own a 3D printer and I take the time to design and model a part virtually (i.e. Solidworks, Rhino, etc) which sometimes takes hours, that it wont be considered scratch built? Hmmm. Times are a changing and although scratch building may not be the same as it once was I would say it is just done differently now.

If you have all your parts made then thats a different story but if you are designing and creating everything then I think you are the creator / builder.

Shaun Evans

Yeah,

You've got a point on the printing of scale parts. It's not like you can speak into the printer's microphone, "Ok, make me a really scale looking counter-balance tab" and it spits one out. I just feel sad knowing that in 15 years, maybe ALL of Top Gun will be a bunch of guys standing there with their plug-n-play ARF's, grinning like a proud papa with their trophy. Heck, the Model Airplane News article identified one of the SM jets as 'built from a Skymaster kit' and I thought it's been a while since they offered 'kits.'

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

Thanks YA!

Good question, with a laser scanner you don't even have to "design" or sculpt a part. I saw a guy scan a real full size 50 cal machine gun and print out a perfect miniature copy, same thing with drop tanks or anything for that matter. I guess it is a modern scratch build, to me it's kind of like scanning the Mona Lisa and printing it out and saying you did it though, but that's just me. To keep up with these guys you have to do what they do if you want to play to win, I'm all for change, so I'm not saying it's bad. I guess I have an older view of what art is, but that's subjective.

dionysusbacchus

My Feedback: (25)

Example, is this sculpting?

http://bestpilots.typepad.com/my_web...-like-you.html

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

Shaun, in 15 years those kits will come with a 5 yr old chinese kid inside the box, trained to fly, and he will fly and win Top Gun for you.

SECRET AGENT

My Feedback: (18)

Actually that's exactly what I'm saying. I've been involved in the designing and 3d printing of custom parts for a few years now and I can say unequivocally I would rather do that than go into my workshop and try to do the same thing with chunks of wood, glue, boogers and whatever else it might take to make it look real.

I guess my point is, there should be a category for just scratch builders and one for ARF's. I think if you did that it would make the trophy in the scratch built category more prized than in the "bought online" category.

Whenever I have seen a scratch built model in person, it's gets far more oohs and aahs than the ARFs. Probably because you realize you can't go out and buy one just like it.

Just my .02 cents, nothing more. Remember opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one and a some of them are full of poop.

Shaun Evans

DB,

No, that's not. But it's freakin' cool! I'm uploading my pics now.

Shaun Evans

SA,

I get what you're saying exactly. I wish there were enough modelers around, or at least enough people who appreciate the craft that events like Top Gun could still be the kind of thing I have to go buy the DVD for. With what I saw in the magazine, it's just like the last few jet meets I've been to.... 99% ARF's. Not that those aren't cool, but the guy standing there with the big trophy and even bigger grin seems a little like the dude holding up his boar's head at the canned hunt on a fenced farm.

SECRET AGENT

My Feedback: (18)

Kind of like a rich dude with his brand new Lamborghini taking first place at a car show where the second place guy built his car from the frame up.

Not knocking those ARFs either, I think they are really cool but I thought Top Gun was a builders competition. I just thought that was the whole point of Top Gun.

But, if the scratch builder is long gone, may the best ARF win.

DrScoles

My Feedback: (18)

We all have ADHD due to iPads, phones, instant media twitter twatter… instagrammy, take your narcissistick and broadcast your selfie all over the inter web… who has time to sit and sand balsa? Even "old timers" are hooked on the internet.

Shaun, you have three kids, do you have time to build a built up 1/4 scale warbird?

I do agree that there should be different classes. I also think its odd that you can win it multiple times with the same model… Seems like you should have to retire it if it wins.

gunradd

My Feedback: (9)

I flew a kit at TG

afterburner

My Feedback: (18)

At the awards ceremony for an event last year I believe, the "best lights award" went to an ARF that had the stock lights installed and there were at least two or three other people with the same ARF and the same lights? That was a head scratcher.

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

This year was my first year ever going to TopGun. I saw some really nice models.. then there were the rest...

ww2birds

My Feedback: (14)

FWIW, the "traditional" classes at Top Gun are still there (Expert, Masters and Team) where you build (or design and build) the model. Frank added the new "Pro-Am" classes many years ago where instead of an equal weighting of static and flying score, there is only a 0 or 25 pts score for static where the plane has to reasonably resemble a full scale plane (like some of the AMA fun scale contests) and a photo must be provided -- "nice" ARFs are permitted. There has been a LOT of discussion about it over the years.

This had to do with the reasons noted about that it was harder and harder to attract entrants to the traditional classes, plus a desire on the promoter's part of expand the size and interest of the contest which it has certainly done. Interestingly the upper Pro-Am classes evolved into a rather serious flying competition, that attracted many of the best pilots in years where they did not have a proper "ride".

I don't think it damages the reputation of the contest because Frank did it in a way that adds vs replaces to the traditional classes and makes the event more interesting. I have enjoyed flying in the Pro-Am classes a few times so perhaps I am biased :-) I still have competing in the traditional classes on my bucket list!

Dave McQ

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

I think the only place where you have to build is Jet World Masters, they don't allow arfs... I think...

JackD

My Feedback: (4)

Shawn, as Dave says,

There are multiple classes.
Masters: You design, build and fly (not even scratch built from plans is allowed)
Expert: You build from a kit and fly (My dad's Fouga for example comes from an Avonds kit. There is a short build thread somewhere here on RCU... pretty complex build)
Team: One person builds, the other flies
Unlimited: full team... it does not matter who builds, if it comes from a kit, arf, built for hire... anything goes. Same as the JWM

Mr Top Gun is awarded to the highest score between the winners of Masters and Expert

Then there are the Pro Am classes, which is basically a flying contest. You just need to show that the plane looks scale (even if it is a published phantasy scheme... but it does need to look scale). You get an automatic 25. No variable scores on scale, so no, money can't buy you points. Just your flying skills. There are 3 of these classes

Pro Am Sport: for new competitors. Props and jets compete together
Pro Am Pro: next level. Prop and jets are separate (although I much rather have them combined... I would have beaten Dino, with all the corresponding bragging rights hahaha)

So.... it is not like it seems. builders continue to build, more categories allow for different modelers with different skills. Same is happening on the Scale Masters

Hope this clarifies things a little

Jack G

Frank Ts Stuff

My Feedback: (130)

^^what he said^^

I understand the original poster's dismay but "the times they are a changing"..... and there were plenty of really cool non-ARF planes at Top Gun this year that still made it feel like Top Gun.

Here is mine, 49#'s of sticks and glue!
-Vailly Aviation Hawker Tempest V. First photo is by Barry Vaught who brought along a "model" of his own to enhance our models ;-)

-Sean

PS - oops, just realized I am in a jet thread ;-) Hope my propeller does not offend...

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

You can paint an ARF for Expert, no?

Frank Ts Stuff

My Feedback: (130)

No ARF's in expert. The excerpt below is from the rulebook which is available on Frank's site @ www.franktiano.com

C.
ARF Models All Top Gun aircraft MUST be models that are considered "worthy"
of the Top Gun invitation. ARF models are eligible, but are limited to the Pro-Am and
Unlimited Classes only. They must represent a full scale, or Fantasy, color scheme. An ARF
model is one that is defined as a pre-painted model, where most of the construction, AND
the finish, is completed at the Factory. NO Film Covered models, regardless of their
quality, are allowed.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

How does Peter fly a Skymaster F-104 in expert then?

Shaun Evans

Well,

The caption in Model Airplane News says it's built from a Skymaster kit.