Top Gun?
06-11-2015, 11:49 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Shawn, as Dave says,
There are multiple classes.
Masters: You design, build and fly (not even scratch built from plans is allowed)
Expert: You build from a kit and fly (My dad's Fouga for example comes from an Avonds kit. There is a short build thread somewhere here on RCU... pretty complex build)
Team: One person builds, the other flies
Unlimited: full team... it does not matter who builds, if it comes from a kit, arf, built for hire... anything goes. Same as the JWM
Mr Top Gun is awarded to the highest score between the winners of Masters and Expert
Then there are the Pro Am classes, which is basically a flying contest. You just need to show that the plane looks scale (even if it is a published phantasy scheme... but it does need to look scale). You get an automatic 25. No variable scores on scale, so no, money can't buy you points. Just your flying skills. There are 3 of these classes
Pro Am Sport: for new competitors. Props and jets compete together
Pro Am Pro: next level. Prop and jets are separate (although I much rather have them combined... I would have beaten Dino, with all the corresponding bragging rights hahaha)
So.... it is not like it seems. builders continue to build, more categories allow for different modelers with different skills. Same is happening on the Scale Masters
Hope this clarifies things a little
Jack G
There are multiple classes.
Masters: You design, build and fly (not even scratch built from plans is allowed)
Expert: You build from a kit and fly (My dad's Fouga for example comes from an Avonds kit. There is a short build thread somewhere here on RCU... pretty complex build)
Team: One person builds, the other flies
Unlimited: full team... it does not matter who builds, if it comes from a kit, arf, built for hire... anything goes. Same as the JWM
Mr Top Gun is awarded to the highest score between the winners of Masters and Expert
Then there are the Pro Am classes, which is basically a flying contest. You just need to show that the plane looks scale (even if it is a published phantasy scheme... but it does need to look scale). You get an automatic 25. No variable scores on scale, so no, money can't buy you points. Just your flying skills. There are 3 of these classes
Pro Am Sport: for new competitors. Props and jets compete together
Pro Am Pro: next level. Prop and jets are separate (although I much rather have them combined... I would have beaten Dino, with all the corresponding bragging rights hahaha)
So.... it is not like it seems. builders continue to build, more categories allow for different modelers with different skills. Same is happening on the Scale Masters
Hope this clarifies things a little
Jack G
Thanks, Jack.
I'm glad to read that because I was a little bummed leafing through the magazine. When I worked at a hobby shop, I used to love to crack open the latest Top Gun video and play it for the customers in the shop. I'd build to those videos and they kept me motivated. Seeing some of those amazing birds would remind me why it was worth it to be doing all that sanding. These days, when I am prepping an ARF to fly, there's always someone who's never seen a turbine F-22 in person. They'll come up and gawk and say very nice things to which "Thank you" would be the natural response. I smile and say something like, "I'm glad you like it" instead because unless they're complimenting the way the slots I cut in the servo covers for the arm are nice and tiny, the pride belongs to the guy in China. Good to know that maybe MAN featured more ARFs and not necessarily that they were the majority.
06-12-2015, 12:35 AM
#28
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http://www.ijmc.net/documents/docs/2...guidelines.pdf
John
06-12-2015, 04:18 AM
#30
Also to take into consideration is its hard to find a jet with the perfect outline. Even in kit form. I painted my F22 to copy the exact serial number of the F22 I copied for static judging but from competing in the scale masters I know the canopy area on my plane is not 100% accurate and I will get degraded for it. It is good enough for the scale masters competitions but not for topgun. I have made the aircraft as scale as possible but would rather just fly it in the ProAm class and not worry about static judging.
I will be getting a big F15 soon and my plan is to purpose build it for competition. It will be an ARF but will come unpainted and I will be changing everything to hidden linkages and doing many other scale additions and that will qualify it for expert class when I am ready to compete at that level. This will satisfy the builder of the model rule.
I will be getting a big F15 soon and my plan is to purpose build it for competition. It will be an ARF but will come unpainted and I will be changing everything to hidden linkages and doing many other scale additions and that will qualify it for expert class when I am ready to compete at that level. This will satisfy the builder of the model rule.
06-12-2015, 05:24 AM
#32
06-12-2015, 05:28 AM
#33
We all have ADHD due to iPads, phones, instant media twitter twatter… instagrammy, take your narcissistick and broadcast your selfie all over the inter web… who has time to sit and sand balsa? Even "old timers" are hooked on the internet.
Shaun, you have three kids, do you have time to build a built up 1/4 scale warbird?
I do agree that there should be different classes. I also think its odd that you can win it multiple times with the same model… Seems like you should have to retire it if it wins.
Shaun, you have three kids, do you have time to build a built up 1/4 scale warbird?
I do agree that there should be different classes. I also think its odd that you can win it multiple times with the same model… Seems like you should have to retire it if it wins.
06-12-2015, 05:33 AM
#34
My Feedback: (43)
This was my first TG as well, this time as a crew member. After the event this year Frank sent out an email that basically said he is giving the Master's class one, maybe two more years before he pulls the plug on that class. There are not enough designers and builders left to support the class. Granted, there were only 8 or 9 entries and some of them had been there before, but still, to me this is the cream of the crop for TG. Foley's 109, Wigley's Beaufighter(RIP), Mast's C-130, this is what Top Gun is supposed to be about, but like what has been said earlier, builders are few and far between. Of course, Unlimited class had an equally low turn out, but there was no threat of cancelling that one; which baffles me since basically it is a ProAm class with static judging. I watched very few of the ProAm flights, not because they are lesser people, or less talented pilots, it simply didn't interest me as much since static judging was not part of the equation. The popularity of the event has certainly declined. I do not THINK, but I could be wrong, that there was anyone there making a video this year, other than a Japanese magazine. Sponsors are getting harder and harder to find.
Which brings up a point about Horizon. I am not a team member nor do I fly Spektrum, but you have to give credit to these guys. They sponsor ALOT of events in this country. They were at TG, then Joe Nall in force, then First in Flight, and countless other events throughout the year.
In that same email Frank said that there would not be anymore cash awards, another sign of the drop in sponsors and rising costs. The very first picture in the article is a Master's class plane, and if I recall, most of the pictures on those two opening pages are non-ARFs. Maybe that is a reason that sponsorship has dropped. The planes that get the press are not available as an ARF or even available from the big hobby retailers.
There are no more "time-out" rules at TG. You can fly a plane however long you wish, even if it has won.
Which brings up a point about Horizon. I am not a team member nor do I fly Spektrum, but you have to give credit to these guys. They sponsor ALOT of events in this country. They were at TG, then Joe Nall in force, then First in Flight, and countless other events throughout the year.
In that same email Frank said that there would not be anymore cash awards, another sign of the drop in sponsors and rising costs. The very first picture in the article is a Master's class plane, and if I recall, most of the pictures on those two opening pages are non-ARFs. Maybe that is a reason that sponsorship has dropped. The planes that get the press are not available as an ARF or even available from the big hobby retailers.
There are no more "time-out" rules at TG. You can fly a plane however long you wish, even if it has won.
06-12-2015, 06:07 AM
#35
Jeff over all attendance was pretty high. Just the masters class had low turnout. I would not say the event as a whole has declined because you could not fit anymore planes or pilots into what we already had.
Also Jack was in the expert class. The masters class is for scratch built planes only not produced from kits or plans but from scratch.
Also Jack was in the expert class. The masters class is for scratch built planes only not produced from kits or plans but from scratch.
06-12-2015, 06:17 AM
#36
The Skymaster "kits" are closer to the Yellow F-22 kit than an arf, not the same but closer. They need body work done, need to be painted, and you have to hinge the doors (unless you pay extra..), in most cases you will have to make a few bulk heads or modify them to accommodate your install. To make one look nice you have to have skill! I believe Peter's started as their "kit" again not comparing them but this is different than an Arf! I have their smaller A-10 coming in the kit form and it's far from an arf and will need several parts made.... The plug and play stuff is a joke in my mind, someone won't even install their own servos.... I can't imagine not having the piece of mind in doing that your self to make sure it's done properly on a model that expensive!
Last edited by bri6672; 06-12-2015 at 06:22 AM.
06-12-2015, 06:27 AM
#37
My Feedback: (11)
We really need to define what a kit is especially in regards to jets.
I am building/assembling a Y/A f-18. I have to glue in formers and glass the wings.
Builders in my area do not consider my f-18 to be a kit, because I didn't have to mold the fiberglass, build up the wings, etc.. Relative to my JL viper, sure it is a kit.
However, if this is a kit, than many "Arfs" I have assembled are also kits because I've had to not only remove bad/cricked formers but also had to glue in new ones as well as glass the wings. The MB f-86D needed all the same things as my little Y/A does except I had to engineer it myself including drawing formers. I've had arfs take far more work and customization than my f-18. I had to paint both of them.
Where is the line drawn in the definition?
Also, to my knowledge for jets, the only "kits" left are now century jet models, which are similar to Y/A arfs.
I want more jet "kits" please point me in the right direction. I do not care for built up fuses though.
In terms of money, of course it really comes down to how much money you spend, its always been that way.
Top Gun is now an ARF and Gyro fest, and that is ok. Soon it will be foam arfs as that advances.
I am building/assembling a Y/A f-18. I have to glue in formers and glass the wings.
Builders in my area do not consider my f-18 to be a kit, because I didn't have to mold the fiberglass, build up the wings, etc.. Relative to my JL viper, sure it is a kit.
However, if this is a kit, than many "Arfs" I have assembled are also kits because I've had to not only remove bad/cricked formers but also had to glue in new ones as well as glass the wings. The MB f-86D needed all the same things as my little Y/A does except I had to engineer it myself including drawing formers. I've had arfs take far more work and customization than my f-18. I had to paint both of them.
Where is the line drawn in the definition?
Also, to my knowledge for jets, the only "kits" left are now century jet models, which are similar to Y/A arfs.
I want more jet "kits" please point me in the right direction. I do not care for built up fuses though.
In terms of money, of course it really comes down to how much money you spend, its always been that way.
Top Gun is now an ARF and Gyro fest, and that is ok. Soon it will be foam arfs as that advances.
06-12-2015, 06:29 AM
#39
My Feedback: (11)
You beat me to it but we are saying the same thing. Some arfs require as much work as a kit, if not more. Its damn hard to tear out cricked formers compared to just gluing it in right in the first place.
The Skymaster "kits" are closer to the Yellow F-22 kit than an arf, not the same but closer. They need body work done, need to be painted, and you have to hinge the doors (unless you pay extra..), in most cases you will have to make a few bulk heads or modify them to accommodate your install. To make one look nice you have to have skill! I believe Peter's started as their "kit" again not comparing them but this is different than an Arf! I have their smaller A-10 coming in the kit form and it's far from an arf and will need several parts made.... The plug and play stuff is a joke in my mind, someone won't even install their own servos.... I can't imagine not having the piece of mind in doing that your self to make sure it's done properly on a model that expensive!
06-12-2015, 06:38 AM
#40
Thread Starter
Hi
I was being cute when I mentioned the SM 'kit.' I don't think they offer the 104 in kit-form.... In fact, I doubt they're moving many 'kits' these days at all. Who buys those when you can get a painted ARF for a few dollars more?
Speaking of having to hinge doors, I miss those days when customers would get halfway through assembly of one of the Y/A F-15's, then give up and send it to me to finish. This was an ARF that required no 'building' whatsoever. Just installation. I was happy for the work, but bummed about the foreshadow of where the hobby was going.
I was being cute when I mentioned the SM 'kit.' I don't think they offer the 104 in kit-form.... In fact, I doubt they're moving many 'kits' these days at all. Who buys those when you can get a painted ARF for a few dollars more?
Speaking of having to hinge doors, I miss those days when customers would get halfway through assembly of one of the Y/A F-15's, then give up and send it to me to finish. This was an ARF that required no 'building' whatsoever. Just installation. I was happy for the work, but bummed about the foreshadow of where the hobby was going.
Last edited by Shaun Evans; 06-12-2015 at 06:41 AM.
06-12-2015, 06:43 AM
#41
My Feedback: (43)
Going by how many people finished in the static judged classes(as posted on Frank's Site), turn out was pretty low.
Masters - 8
Expert - 14
Unlimited - 7
Team - 10
That is a total of 39 planes that were Non-ProAm planes that were posted on the final scores.
Prior to the event, Frank said that there were 68 total ProAm pilots. I do not know how many scratched before the show, but it is safe to say that ProAm had the majority by far. That is good for keeping the event going in the short term, but not so good for the prestige that this event has. I am not saying that ProAm didn't have some gorgeous airplanes entered, because it certainly did. It was started as a class to get you enthused and involved with building and flying at the highest level. You could build or buy a really nice plane that may not static well, but you get the taste of competition to hopefully encourage you to build or design an accurate plane for the future. It grew quickly and then had to be split into two different classes, and now three with ProAm Pro Jet. I sincerely hope that it does not become a judged fly-in as more and more builders and craftsman disappear.
Of course Jack Diaz with his Fouga flew Expert, he was Mr. Top Gun and that can only come from a static judged event. The point was that you can't go to the local hobby shop and buy one like it. You have to order it from Belgium, then build it, which he did an amazing job with and he flew wonderfully! I was merely suggesting that this could be a reason sponsors see less value in events like this since they cannot "win on Sunday, sell on Monday".
Masters - 8
Expert - 14
Unlimited - 7
Team - 10
That is a total of 39 planes that were Non-ProAm planes that were posted on the final scores.
Prior to the event, Frank said that there were 68 total ProAm pilots. I do not know how many scratched before the show, but it is safe to say that ProAm had the majority by far. That is good for keeping the event going in the short term, but not so good for the prestige that this event has. I am not saying that ProAm didn't have some gorgeous airplanes entered, because it certainly did. It was started as a class to get you enthused and involved with building and flying at the highest level. You could build or buy a really nice plane that may not static well, but you get the taste of competition to hopefully encourage you to build or design an accurate plane for the future. It grew quickly and then had to be split into two different classes, and now three with ProAm Pro Jet. I sincerely hope that it does not become a judged fly-in as more and more builders and craftsman disappear.
Of course Jack Diaz with his Fouga flew Expert, he was Mr. Top Gun and that can only come from a static judged event. The point was that you can't go to the local hobby shop and buy one like it. You have to order it from Belgium, then build it, which he did an amazing job with and he flew wonderfully! I was merely suggesting that this could be a reason sponsors see less value in events like this since they cannot "win on Sunday, sell on Monday".
06-12-2015, 06:56 AM
#43
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I'm a builder, have competed in multiple Scale Masters' events, but never been invited to Top Gun (but I've always wanted to compete in it). How does one get invited? The hardest part will always be getting an airplane there from the West Coast...but I've had someone offer to help out if I ever get an invitation.
Unfortunately, scale competition isn't what it used to be but that doesn't keep me from wanting to throw my hat in the ring. They all offer a Pro-Am type category which I think is important to maintain so that folks can get exposed to competition. I think initially, the hope was that it would be a gateway for folks to then move towards to the builders classes...however, I don't think that's really been happening and it's turned more into a flying competition (which doesn't bother me much).
I've always loved building and have been fortunate to have my dad (Larry Wolfe of JHH) show me so much both flying an building and I enjoy sharing and helping others. I've even gone to the extent of setting up a blog (http://thercgeek.com) hoping to put out quality information on how to build (both written and video tutorials). My hope is to inspire builders both new and seasoned if possible, but I know it's an uphill battle. But, if 1 person is inspired to try a build project, I'll have considered it successful.
Unfortunately, scale competition isn't what it used to be but that doesn't keep me from wanting to throw my hat in the ring. They all offer a Pro-Am type category which I think is important to maintain so that folks can get exposed to competition. I think initially, the hope was that it would be a gateway for folks to then move towards to the builders classes...however, I don't think that's really been happening and it's turned more into a flying competition (which doesn't bother me much).
I've always loved building and have been fortunate to have my dad (Larry Wolfe of JHH) show me so much both flying an building and I enjoy sharing and helping others. I've even gone to the extent of setting up a blog (http://thercgeek.com) hoping to put out quality information on how to build (both written and video tutorials). My hope is to inspire builders both new and seasoned if possible, but I know it's an uphill battle. But, if 1 person is inspired to try a build project, I'll have considered it successful.
Last edited by Jet20; 06-12-2015 at 07:03 AM.
06-12-2015, 07:17 AM
#44
Thread Starter
Won't you have to spend a bunch of time correcting stuff on that bird? The big 15's I've seen are all WAY off-scale in ways I've always winced at. Seems like the bigger the F-15, the more out-of-scale (which is confusing).
06-12-2015, 08:00 AM
#46
Yep it will take lots of work. But it fits my requirements.
I will only fly american modern fighters because that's what I like.
Then it needs to be BIG. To fly scale the plane needs to look like its not flying to fast. When your out flying with a smaller plane and the guy next to you a has huge tomohawk hawk then you will get down graded for flying to fast. IMO the bigger planes score better
06-12-2015, 09:14 AM
#48
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How can you start out with an ARF model and end up qualifying for the expert class? You will still have not done any of the overall build no matter how much you dress up an ARF it's still an ARF!
Larry B
QUOTE from post #30:
I will be getting a big F15 soon and my plan is to purpose build it for competition. It will be an ARF but will come unpainted and I will be changing everything to hidden linkages and doing many other scale additions and that will qualify it for expert class when I am ready to compete at that level. This will satisfy the builder of the model rule.[/QUOTE]
Larry B
QUOTE from post #30:
I will be getting a big F15 soon and my plan is to purpose build it for competition. It will be an ARF but will come unpainted and I will be changing everything to hidden linkages and doing many other scale additions and that will qualify it for expert class when I am ready to compete at that level. This will satisfy the builder of the model rule.[/QUOTE]
Last edited by lawrence b; 06-12-2015 at 10:15 AM.
06-12-2015, 09:18 AM
#49
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To qualify for Expert you have to actually build the model, not just hide some linkage's, stick some scale parts on it and then spray some paint at it.
Larry B
Larry B
Last edited by lawrence b; 06-12-2015 at 10:40 AM.
06-12-2015, 09:21 AM
#50
Thread Starter
Haha,
That's a new cottage industry I'm gonna start. You import the dude from the Chinese factory who actually laid up the plane in the mold and have him standing next to you for Team-type classes. That way, when someone says "Wow, nice jet!", he'll actually pipe up with the THANK YOU.
That's a new cottage industry I'm gonna start. You import the dude from the Chinese factory who actually laid up the plane in the mold and have him standing next to you for Team-type classes. That way, when someone says "Wow, nice jet!", he'll actually pipe up with the THANK YOU.
