FTiano

My Feedback: (11)

Does "Anybody" realize there are FEW true "Kits" of jet models available from anyone. And certainly we wouldn't want some hammer making a balsa and plywood, 100 inch Jet that blows apart in the first turn after taking off. I am speaking of models where you have to sand, fit, finish, drill, gouge, engineer, scrape, glue, unglue, scuff, and cut a bunch of parts, perhaps over 300 of them, to produce a finished airplane! What we have are ARFs and REALY ARFS. But you may also buy unfinished models from some of the ARF producing companies. And then there are those few models where you get a fiberglass or composite fuselage and a box load of wood and glass parts you have to put together, with the aide of some illegible construction manual, to produce a reasonable facsimile of the airplane in the picture! ALL of the airplanes in the Expert, Masters and Team classes at Top Gun are "Put Together" and "Finished" by the participant. Over in Pro-Am, you may buy a plug and play Cougar from BVM and have all the fun without any of the stress of getting your work judged by 3 guys in chairs who are just looking for mistakes. Pete Goldsmith did not shake the freaking box and a full size F-104 fell out, ready to roll! So please, knock off all the bull-crap comments. I'd like to see any one of the guys badmouthing Top Gun pilots to take a shot at it sometime. I guarantee they are NOT up to the task. But then, here on RCU, isn't it most common for the do-nothing guys to make the most noise? Here's an Open Invitation, any one of you with "the mouth" may come to Top Gun next year. I'll pay your entry fee. Let's see how you do, flying in front of a few thousand spectators, a pair of Judges and 100 of your constituents! Oh yeah, and remember, when you blow one of your maneuvers, unlike when your flying at your club field, there ain't no "Do-Overs"! Just let me know.

Shaun Evans

Frank,

Ramp it down a notch, huh?. So far, I think everyone has been pretty civil in this thread. Nobody is dissing Peter, either. Everyone here knows the guy is legit. For my own part, I was just grieving for what's become of the hobby... not crapping on Top Gun. Jack Jr and others did a pretty good job of explaining the evolution of your event and how you're just reasonably adjusting to the times. I don't remember reading anyone rejecting that narrative, and I applaud your desire (and ability) to keep something like TG going in spite of the disappearance of true modeling from our hobby. Like anything else that makes people sad, sometimes you use humor/sarcasm to cope with it. Before I had kids, I'd drive all over the place to attend jet meets (Kentucky, Superman, Florida, Arizona, etc.) and half the point was seeing the work of master modelers. In the late 90's, when I first got into jets, there were no jet ARFs at meets. Now, there's practically nothing but. That's not a GOOD development, is it?

Keep doing what you're doing. I think everyone regards you as one of those people who's done heaps for the sport and I'm grateful. If anything I wrote indicated otherwise, it was not my intention and I apologize.

FTiano

My Feedback: (11)

You're right of course. sorry I got to the boiling point! The way it's going, in a few years there will be NO "Builders" at all, it appears! So what do we do then, have a Scale Pattern Contest? Electronics for children have really hurt this hobby. No kid wants to build a model airplane anymore. That would be way to geeky, and they have such incredible hand held computers to play with all day. Anyway, it is what it is and we'll deal with it the bests we can. However, my offer does still stand!

SECRET AGENT

My Feedback: (18)

Frank, I believe that most of the comments were from a nostalgic point of view, like remembering your first car where you had to actually shift your own gears and could work on your engine without a super commuter plugged into it.

I remember crouding around some beautiful built airplane at a R/C show and thinking I wish I had the talent to build something so beautiful from scratch. Just fond old memories I guess.

I am glad you are keeping Top Gun going strong despite the change in the wind, thank you for that. It's still on my bucket list to come and see in person and not just in pictures some day.

Suprfort

My Feedback: (27)

I am still building and designing. The once a year contest gives me a timeline goal to complete the new airplane. I was very well rewarded for my new 30% Wildcat this year with the Critics Choice award. I'm still building.

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

So....

say someone takes a set of plans from a designer and heavily modifies the build and overall airframe design to where everything in between most of the outline is different (and in some cases the outline is drastically changed to match the 3views). Then he completely molds the airframe into an all composite model. Then designs all of the internal structures, builds a "kit" from said tooling, then builds a model from that kit and does all of the necessary scale detailing work to get it to TopGun standards.

Would this qualify for a Masters competition model since the final airframe design is completely different than what the original plans were, or would it still be required to enter the Expert class?

I have a few models... 4 to be exact that fall under the above problem...

lovetoflyguy

My Feedback: (139)

Top Gun has been part of my life for the past 8 years. A lot has changed even in that short of time. Please remember, Top Gun is not just any run of the mill Air Show. Around 100K is invested before the first set of gear leaves the ground! This is a huge under taking and a very professional air show/competition. I agree that I would love to see a bunch of scale kits and or scratch build planes.....but that just aint so any more. Frank has had to re-adjust Top Gun in order to keep it going for all of us to enjoy. Even though I build my own planes, I fly in Pro-Am. I will move to expert when I think my skill is to the point. However, many of the "BIG NAMES" in the hobby has moved over to Pro-Am. We seem to have made ourselves too busy to build, younger guys come in and rather fly ARF's, etc. Its the way the hobby is trending. I feel safe to say, even with ARF jets, etc. out there, some of the best quality I've seen is still at Top Gun. Because of the changes Frank has made, Top Gun is still an awesome event that we all can enjoy. You can't make Top Gun successful with 12 guys who still build like they did in the good ole days. BTW, here is my entry for this year. Yep, it was a kit!

LJE4357

My Feedback: (74)

This is all very interesting, and there are a lot of very good points to talk about. Personally with the equipment that's available today, all you need is money. But how are we as a country going to move ahead and design and build the aircraft of the future. The computer can draw it, and the 3D printer can make the parts. But something that doesn't exist, can never be made. It takes people with capabilities to actually make something. Anybody can copy it.

My 2 cents worth

vmosmith

My Feedback: (46)

All you have to do is look at one of Doc McCauleys completely scratch built models to see the difference. Every part cut by hand. 7000 hours to complete and one of the most skillfull flyers ever. A ARF jet may be impressive at 100 ft. and 100 miles per hour, but the handcrafted airplane is in a world of it's own.

gunradd

My Feedback: (9)

Love Doc. Hes a good friend and has shown me allot. Wish they allowed jets at baycity so I could still fly with him.

JackD

My Feedback: (4)

Agree,

I saw my dad hit print and 2 years later the fouga came out...ready to fly, painted. And not only that, perfectly set up to be able to fly 97+ points flights

I also heard david ribbe bought a cheaper 3 d printer than my dad and it took his mig like 4 years to print.... More money and probably it would have printed quicker hahah

Guys.... Too much talking. Frank needs pilots and builders. Call him and lets all see eachother at TG 16!!!!

cnhjk

How does Peter fly a Skymaster F-104 in expert then?

dubd

I'm not a hater of ARFs as they've advanced the art. I can appreciate the work Peter has done to his Skymaster F-104 given the work I've put into my more complete version. The paint, detail, and weathering is heads and should above what comes standard out of the box. what comes out of the box is already pretty damn good.

Rather than you old timers (I say that with respect) complaining about ARFs and the lack of builders, why don't some of you hold classes or clinics to teach newcomers the skill necessary to become a builder? Not only is there a lack of kits, but there is also a lack of resources for those who want to learn.

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

RCSB is probably one of the best places (if not The best) one can use for learning a lot of little trick and tips for scale stuff....

dubd

Thanks, Thomas! I had no idea that site existed. Adding it to my bookmarks.

FTiano

My Feedback: (11)

I'd say "Yes" that would qualify for Masters Class.

LJE4357

My Feedback: (74)

As an old timer, thats been in the model business for about 30 years, What you say is a great idea, but here is the problem. Most of the people in this business today, that have been involved selling for about 15 years can't build a 10 cent glider from Testors. But they do have the money to buy an existing product send it to China and have them copy it. I was the first in the world to produce air operated micro retracts, they been copied over an over. I also developed EDF units 90mm and above to produce more than 10 lbs of thrust. The first turbines were not developed in Europe, but here in the US. Most people are to lazy to find the truth, so they believe what they hear. That's why the old timers have quit doing anything thing. Why should we, someone with no brains but have some money copies it. And you haven't seen anything yet. NASA wants to put men on Mars, There isn't enough American Engineers left to do the work. It's going to take some time to change, and it will. But you won't see it, but your great grandchildren will see it start.

bri6672

My Feedback: (6)

He ordere an unfinished model and did the work to get it where is is today, read Franks first post he explains it. Like I said in my post the unfinished models from Arf companies take a lot of work to look good.....

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

Wooo!

Count me in for next year... Im actually busting my butt to have the prototype of the latest build ready for 12 o'clock. Tall order considering only 1/3 of the molds are done and im still finishing plugs and ive got four of these things to produce already.

lawrence b

Thomas,
That is fantastic that you are considering Masters Class next year! Frank sent out a letter to all of the contestants on his mailing list and said that in a year or two he may remove Masters Class due to lack of new models and the overall number of entrants being so small.
I sent him a letter back saying basically that I really hated to see Masters go away and then the few actual designer/builders that are left would have to fly with the "kit" modelers in Expert. Most of the other contest's around the country have already removed Designers Scale from their classes due to the small number of entrants, even at the NAT's a few years ago when I went there and flew their designers group had only three of us
.
Now I guess modelers think they can go buy an ARF, add some details and then paint it up to qualify for the Expert class, boy have times changed!

I wish that you were able to spend some more time at Lakeland this year when you dropped off the V-173, I felt bad that I was busy with the contest stuff and did not get to spend time chatting about models!
Larry B

gunradd

My Feedback: (9)

Some need to realize all the work that goes into building one of these models.

For one you need to pick a model you can get good documentation on. This means 3 view pictures color chips serial number aircraft and all the little quirks that particular aircraft has. Its amazing how much you learn about the aircraft you are modeling getting one ready for TG. Each plane has a story behind it. You need to get color chips or some other form to prove its the correct color and allot of other things for good documentation. Then you will need to fix things that are not scale. For instance on my F22 the nose gear doors where the wrong shape. Also the main gear doors dont open as far as the real one. The cockpit was not even close to scale. All these things need to be fixed. Then you paint the model to 100% match the serial number aircraft you are modeling down to the last little final detail. This means lining up every marking to be exactly like it is on the real aircraft. It has to be the same exact distance from every panel line as the real one or you will get downgraded. All that needs to be done even if its an ARF.

If you tried to get any of the Chinese companies to paint it for you and show up you will get a horrible score because of the markings placement and the paint job will not be scale like the particular serial number aircraft you want.

LJE4357

My Feedback: (74)

How about anyone building a kit ( If there any left) or scratched builds and fly's in the Masters along with all the ARF's, there total score is doubled on flying, and trippled on the building . That may change some thinking from the ARF builders.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

I can't believe that nobody has taken Frank up on his offer! I mean, a PAID INVITE entry to Top Gun for just shooting your mouth off on an internet forum? Come on guys, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!

Regards,

Astro

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

Larry,
no worries on the chatting, i know how it goes during a contest.

As far as eliminating the masters class, maybe it should be a bi or triannual type thing. Coming out with a new model every year isnt feasible for everyone, but its fun trying!

ya know, i hear and see a LOT of people on the net who make comments like they would love to compete at TopGun, but they dont have an "in". Many of these guys who post build threads on the net do some really impressive stuff. The invitation only thing seems to be a big stumbling block, even though i understand why its there. Maybe a prescreening of models by submitting an info packet on your model with detailed photos of what makes it TopGun worthy by Dec 31st prior to the next competition would allow more people to get involved and participate. Just a thought

Jgwright

Not sure where you got your information. Full size first turbine to run was Whittle in the UK in April 1937 Ohain in Germany in Sept 1937 followed.The first turbine powered aircraft was in Germany and then in the UK. USA (GE) used the Whittle design to produce copies known as the GE J31.

Small turbine engine development followed a similar path. The first model turbine developed for model aircraft was in the UK and was the Thatcham design of Jerry Jackman and it flew march 20 1983. All small commercially produced engines now however owe their roots in the Schreckling design.

John