patrnflyr

My Feedback: (7)

Why do we, as RC pilots, have to deal with funky retractable gear?!? I flew in a full scale Piper Arrow with electric gear in the 70's which was fully reliable. Why can't anybody become the "do all" for retractable gear? I got up early this morning and was looking through my various emails and forum threads. Came across a couple of things including the weekly Jeti/Esprit email showing the tons of add-ons you can use with their big radio. Everything from airspeed indicators to fuel flow sensors. It was crazy all the stuff you can use. AND, all of our radio manufacturers have this equipment either available or are researching. Moving forward, I noticed Keith's gear problem with his F-14. For the amount of money we are paying, this gear should be perfect and not require all kinds of "fixes" just to get it to cycle correctly. I own several TF GS Warbirds too and many pilots, including me, are fighting their gear trunions which are self destructing with very slight side loads.

This is is ridiculous! You go from companies run by a single person who ignores emails, other companies that will sell you trunions out the wazoo but not reengineer to actually fix their problems and then high end jet manufacturers with their share of problems in ultra expensive "exotic" jets.

Would somebody please listen to us, the modelers, and produce a product with good customer support, a great product and something that actually works reliably without having to send it off to an aftermarket gear guru to alter it? I'm really getting tired of having a great flight and breathing a sigh of relief when my gear actually comes down and I don't have to screw up the finish on a $10K jet.

It it doesn't have to be this way! Sorry for the rant but this is ridiculous.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Most modellers make buying decisions based on the shiny painted skin and won't look under the skin at the horrors beneath. Most modellers are cheapskates, how often do we see someone buy a jet and then ask which $5 Shoddy King servos they can fit to it? There are plenty on this forum who are willing to buy proper equipment but we are a small % of the totality of model fliers and it's already a small market so we get what the majority deserve. Good retracts can cost as much or more than a kit, e.g. Grumania 1/10 Eurofighter kit €620, retracts €630. Avonds F104 €1090, scale retracts €1595. How many people are willing to pay €1595 just for the undercarriage? 99% will try to fit a $50 Shoddy King and then still be surprised when it fails but come onto forums and tell us we are fools being ripped-off for paying the €1595!

Want really sturdy, custom made retracts for a good price, fitted with double point of contact hydraulic seals instead of single point of contact O-ring? http://kingfisher-aviation.com/premier-retracts/ But you do have to wait until they have some spare time on the CNC machines. It's just a problem of us being such a tiny market.

patrnflyr

My Feedback: (7)

I understand that many modelers are cheap. I really don't think that is the case with us as jet modelers. Look at Keith's plane, for example, with his Uber expensive F-14. He shouldn't be fighting with that gear at all. It should be 100% reliable from the start. Even a lot of the Top Flite GS warbirds guys are getting pretty upset with their Robart gear. I know there's not a ton of money in manufacturing the RG but the problems seem to be pandemic in our hobby. All I ever hear about is how it's a cottage industry job and they do this part time. Surely, there is somebody out there that can make this work.

You mention us being such a tiny group. I understand that but somebody's producing something and we're buying it. They just need to do it correctly with a QA system that'll catch problems. I would just like it to be reliable, durable and reasonable. Look at our servos nowadays. When I started in the mid seventies, we were using Kraft servos (and others) KPS-14's. What a joke. Probably the 14 stood for the ounces of power they put out, square spline and no options. We now have servos cranking out nearly 500 oz of power with all kinds of options. Back then, we had the Kraft electric gear which was state of the art. It seems we haven't gone much farther in research since then...

Don't get me wrong, my KingCat has NEVER had a retract failure as I knock on wood but I'm talking about industry wide problem not individual manufacturers. Don't turn this thread into a BVM vs Skymaster vs Lado vs etc flame war.

Maybe I'm just dreaming. There's a market out there but it could be impossible with all the hard landings and shoddy installs we as pilots do to these airframes. We certainly don't slam a full scale Arrow onto the runway like we do with these models.

erbroens

Its hard to any landing gear work reliably when it takes all those impacts from landings... the amount of kinetic energy absorved by them is huge. You can help yourself landing as slow and smooth as you can as kinetic energy is velocity squared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iqqBD-DlwU

patrnflyr

My Feedback: (7)

I understand that. I'm not asking how to land and we don't need to land on carriers. I understand your point though as I see people bringing in jets on approach speeds twice as much as what's really needed. I was guilty of this by zinging my KingCat in at probably 50% faster than it actually needed. I went up high and just practiced slow approaches. I slowed my plane's approach speed way down which really helped a bunch.

It also doesn't help that we, as modelers, look at every kit's "recommendations" and we automatically go up 150-200% making landing speeds go up and resultant fuel weight increase too. I'm just asking them to retract when we ask them, come down when we ask them and stand up to reasonable landings. That's all.

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

I'm with you a lot of the way ptrnflyr. Many times at the airfield I have commented that it is remarkable how we are running engines at 600C at 160,000rpm and the thing that fails most is the retracts which only have to move twice per flight. My suspicion is that enough modellers are unwilling to pay the price for chunky reliable gear that it makes the production run for good gear just too small in many instances.

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

The majority of the problems with retracrs are modelere induced from what i have seen, and this isnt directed at any one individual.

Modelers dont put in the necessary maintenance that comes with a complex airplane, the jet guys are better at this, but ive seen some pretty shoddy stuff in our segment to.
Installation problems seem to be an issue to with gear that are just bolted in and expected to work. This is great as long as the rails are perfectly linear, which i have only seen in a few cases.

The other problem is many times we get to that point where "good enough" in regards to air leaks and cycling becomes acceptable because the frustration of tracking down that last little bit of a leak becomes to much of a paint in the but.

Then there are the manufacturing problems, which vary far and wide. Personally, electric retracts are ridiculous for anything over about 20lbs. Ive seen people fighting with DNL and Robart electrics more than I ever have pneumatic gear, and these were guys who hadnt even flown the gear yet!

to make a strong lightweight landing gear is Expensive! I'm designing three sets of landing gear for projects i'm currently doing. In order to keep the weight down and strength as high as possible, im having to use titanium for certain parts and steel in others. Most of the gear today keeps to majority of alumiun so it breaks before your airframe does.

This hobby, much like many other things, is a decision if sacrifices. What can you do less with to make things easier.

Would you rather have your gear trunion break in a really hard landing, or rip out the gear?
Do you want a single O-ring seal that requires more work to eliminate leaks at 20% less cost, or a double?
etc etc

patrnflyr

My Feedback: (7)

I understand what you're saying but I'm not talking hard landings, etc. You should see some of the videos of the TF GS warbirds guys. Simple roll outs but turned before the plane stops and trunions bending. Ridiculous. Or jet gear that holds perfect air for days until you fly it and one gear binds up because there's wind on the gear doors making the sequence change ever so slightly. I, as usual, don't have a solution, but somewhere there's an answer. We fly around $10-20K jets with $3K+ Radios and then a faulty gear door sequencer fails causing a scratched up nose or worse. Just putting this out there for thought. It probably is just preventative maintenance but I for one would pay for a more reliable gear system

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

The problem is not gear design in itself, its the application. We have outgrown pneumatics, simple.

Models are becoming larger, but air support equipment has virtually remain unchanged....well....something's gotta give = quality.

My recommendation, it's time to leave pneumatics behind and move on, evolve. Going to larger tanks, higher pressure will never be a solution.

David

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

BTW, at least Keith is lucky he has a Skymaster, with enough persistence they will offer a solution.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Asking for stronger more reliable landing gear systems defacto means you want to change the failure point of a bad landing.

Where exactly do you want that to be? And how time consuming or costly is it to repair replace that part? In the Kingcat you have flex plates. A lot of other's don't. Keeping half a dozen trunions, sideframes, or other parts is much easier than most other failure points in most airplanes, such as going up through the wing among others....

erbroens

exactly!

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

I looked for other TomCat landings on U-Tube and could find none that
showed the fighters landing gear struts wobble like these do starting at 20 seconds.
place your cursor on the 20 second mark and keep hitting the left mouse key and
Watch the struts especially the left strut. I wouldn't think even the full scale struts
could take that kind of vibration long much less the Model struts on our planes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iqqBD-DlwU

essyou35

My Feedback: (11)

IMO, if you have a scale jet, you spend as much time fixing/maintaining it as you do flying it. The fancier the gear, the worse they are. I have a jet with simple trailing link struts, not a single problem after hundreds of flights on grass.

I have a skymaster mig, after 5 easy landings a bolt broke in the gear and it collapsed on landing. The bolt, sheared! The reason it sheered is because there are suppose to be two bolts and one fell out. This is factory installed gear, money was paid to have them do it.

-no locktite
-Weak metal bolts

So case in point, it is worth your time on a new jet to take the gear all apart and go through it replacing bolts with stronger ones and locktite everything!
Its also my opinion to not have the factory install gear or gear doors you just end up with issues. I am sure there are exception but its a luck thing.

AndyAndrews

When did you get back into the hobby Sean? I haven't seen you hear in years.

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

+1, it has been a long while

patrnflyr

My Feedback: (7)

So what you're saying is our ultra expensive $2-3K gear needs to be rebuilt and have a look over before we even give it a try. That's one of the whole point of this thread. I didn't have a single problem with my dream works or BVM gear either.

essyou35

My Feedback: (11)

Yup So I guess I agree with you? Im adding that doing this can help save many problems. Why do we put up with? Well unless you want BVM you HAVE to, unless you can get everyone to stop buying Chinese. Good luck with that!

however regardless, even BVM, if you don't maintain them they will start failing especially if they are complex.

erbroens

Perhaps some could.. but is that a good thing? This other video was a certification test. the point that Sean talked about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGo-EfXai1w

LGM Graphix

My Feedback: (22)

I have stayed away from Chinese gear for the most part and between the spring air gear I've had, bvm, JMP, and even Robart, outside of the bvm nose gear in my bobcat being a POS I can't say I've ever had issues. I have actually always thought for what we subject our gear to it works and lasts awfully damn good. Now as I say I've not put any amount of time on Chinese gear or airframes for that matter. Now I know that limits the available models by not buying Chinese models but for my money I just want product that works with the least farking around as possible.

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

patrnflyr is right on with this statement I have been flying jets a long time and if I have gear trouble it is most likely my fault. But the robart giant scale gear will not take any side load at all. I mean you had better be stopped before you turn and this gets harder the faster you have to land. At sea level you can land a lot slower than at say 5400 ft on a 90 deg day. Jets roll out straight but war birds don't all the time. I use dreamworks and airpower gear on my jets and would use airpower on my war planes if I could still get it. But robart or sierra is about it for war birds. From what I read sierra service sucks.

roydefiant

we need hydraulic oleos too

Chris Nicastro

My Feedback: (3)

Having been a product designer for many years in the hobby industry I can say at least for me I hate it when I hear a customer had to modify a part of something. It's a failure at some level but ultimately it's the designers responsibility because you oversee production and check articles.
I've produced many things including several platforms like cars, boats, planes and motorcycles and all of the option parts. I try to think of everything in advance and leave the customer to just change option parts not redesign my parts!
But! That's just me and how I conduct myself and projects.

The hobby industry caters to tinkerers. Up to just a few years ago most people would just take what they could buy and fix it. That's been the way for decades. It's one of the few industries I have known that can produce substandard products, sell them at a high profit and not have much if any liability. It's amazing to me how many companies survive and thrive with poor business practices and unqualified people in charge. I've worked for two that despite every effort to screw things up they seem to be in business despite themselves. They have this super power get out jail free card I guess.

Ive said this before and again and again, do you spend $1500 for a washer and dryer only to go home and modify them to work as expected? Those are appliances granted but what about a dirt bike? Or a PS4? Or anything else that is mass produced at any price?
NO?
Then why is this hobby any different and at the prices of even a so called cheap foamy there are reasonable expectations regardless of the cost and product. But time and again the industry sluffs off substandard products making tons of money every year.

Vote with YOUR MONEY. Resist temptation to buy cheap crap and poorly designed products. Buy nice or buy twice! Warn others of your experience in a constructive manner too.

By the way, many of the companies in this hobby are run by hobbyists not business people. As a result you get stuck with poor customer service and subpar products. They are not professional at producing products but probably very good at making individual items for themselves.

Also, it doesn't take any more time or money to do something right as it does to do it wrong, within reason. So I write off the excuse that this landing gear costs this much because it's XYZ. Well is it reliable? Is it sturdy? If not then it's wrong and what are you charging $2000 for? I've seen first hand production CNC Manufacturing in China and up to a certain production tolerance you can get things done very well and very cost effective. I designed and produced hydraulic motorcycle forks in 1/4 scale and shocks and they cost a fraction of what one set of wheels for a jet cost retail, it's insulting. That includes bespoke o-ring molds! These landing gear are no more complicated nor of a higher machine tolerance than many of my shock, fork, brushless motor or injection molded parts designs. I produced a 1/4 dirt bike with about 175 parts molded and machined at an MOQ of 1000 for about $150 per unit including the radio and electronics, just to give people an idea. So to pay $5/6/7K for jets out of Taiwan and China when I've been to those kind of factories and seen first hand how things are done irritates me.



Anyway, rant over

Boomerang1

Agreed 100%.

I'd much rather change some broken retract parts than knife/saw/glue/patch/paint the alternative.

Very few problems with Robart or Spring Air retracts.

John.

4ptroll

My Feedback: (35)

Have you looked on the Dreamworks RC website? Their Pro Link gear is bullet proof.