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CO2 Extinguisher. Keep it nearby during startup

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CO2 Extinguisher. Keep it nearby during startup

Old 08-18-2015, 08:06 AM
  #26  
Lifer
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Nice guy, bad situation. It's the reason the AMA insurance no longer covers member-to-member liability.
Old 08-18-2015, 11:06 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Lifer
Specifically, no. But I know the business and they don't care if the liable party is a good ole boy or a real nice guy. If he didn't follow the rules, no payment will be made. I hope it doesn't get tested because bad publicity is the last thing our hobby needs.
If that is the case then you may as well not bother with insurance because you will ALWAYS have broken some rule somewhere.

I'm sorry but what you say cannot be the case (and is certainly not the case in the UK).

Also I'll declare an interest. I had a hand in the formulation of the BMFA turbine safety rules here in the UK and I would hate to think that someone's failure to follow something I wrote would cause the drastic consequences you describe.

Model flying organisations can provide safety advice but we can't write laws and insurers will always pay up on public liability if the insured has acted within the law. The arguments and failure to pay up mentioned elsewhere in the thread will have related to trying to deny the liability of the insured.

I remember a meeting of a club I used to belong to where someone who had been involved in such a case was trying to stir things up. He was hit on the head by a tent pole after a model crashedinto a guy rope. His problem was the insurer denying liability and not paying out - there was no question of the pilot being personally liable. Anyway we argued all night about the point being addressed in this thread and went through the wording of the BMFA insurance very carefuly and the situation I outlined above is definitely correct - at least in the UK. Please do not conflate the insurer failing to cover the liability of the insured (which is extremely rare for public liabilty) with the insurer avoiding paying out on the grounds that the insured is not at fault in the first place (which is very common).

Of course none of this means that you are not an idiot if you don't always have a fire extinguisher on hand at startup and a foam (or in some cases water) extinguisher available when the nature of the surrounding vegetation demands it. There are several reasons for always having your extinguisher. These include not wanting to lose a lot of expensive gear, avoid personal injury and not wanting to lose your flying site but the possibility of insurance not paying out is NOT one of them.

Last edited by cmp3cantrj; 08-18-2015 at 11:45 AM.
Old 08-18-2015, 11:37 AM
  #28  
Lifer
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When you join the AMA you agree to abide by their rules. Failure to do so voids the protection. That being said, we can agree to disagree.
Old 08-18-2015, 12:33 PM
  #29  
dbsonic
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interesting stuff on the pipe collapse. I've stopped running smoke internal and will move it to the end of the pipe since there is some concern about what I see it doing to the pipe.
Old 08-18-2015, 12:52 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Lifer
When you join the AMA you agree to abide by their rules. Failure to do so voids the protection. That being said, we can agree to disagree.
That rule, if literally true, would render AMA insurance almost worthless - because, as I said before, you will always have (arguably) broken some rule somewhere and, as you say, insurance companies will find it and use it if they can.

They say things like that in general information because they want people to follow the rules - but I'll bet that the actual insurance documents don't say that. I'll bet you would only really lose cover if you action was deliberate or clearly illegal under FAA laws and even then I'm ot sure. After all motor insurance still pays out even when the driver goes to jail for drink driving!

Also bear in mind that the lawyer suing for damages will always go after a target that is able to pay. If your AMA insurance was invalidated by your failure to keep all the rules then they wouldn't sue you - they would sue your club, its officials or even the AMA itself. The AMA insurance would then be back in play. Because all the parties involved know all this the AMA insurance will simply handle your claim as normal.

Last edited by cmp3cantrj; 08-19-2015 at 12:49 PM. Reason: Another point to add
Old 08-18-2015, 01:31 PM
  #31  
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Ok now for something else that seems silly. A good friend of mine was doing a maiden on a new SM Viper Jet.

He was doing a full power run up then ... BANG! ... then the white fiberglass on the left side of his fuse turned that ugly brown color .. I yelled "FIRE!" he instantly shut down grabbed his extinguisher .. but get this .. the zip tie they used on the release pin was so strong he couldn't break it. At least not quickly. Seeing him struggle I immediately grabbed a cutter out of his tool box and cut the tie. It all happened in less than 10 seconds.

Suggestion: cut a piece of 1/4" long 1/8" id silicone fuel tubing and shove it on the protruding end of the extinguisher pull ring and cut off the zip tie! It still holds it in place but comes off with an easy tug.

The problem on the viper was a bad tac weld on the left front strap on the pipe. It let loose and pipe deflected all the way to the right and the hot gasses hit the side of the fuse and cooked it very quickly. Not a liquid fuel fire, damage was pretty much stopped with the shutdown. But was still a mess.
Old 08-18-2015, 06:03 PM
  #32  
txshan130
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Originally Posted by stevekott
Ok now for something else that seems silly. A good friend of mine was doing a maiden on a new SM Viper Jet.

He was doing a full power run up then ... BANG! ... then the white fiberglass on the left side of his fuse turned that ugly brown color .. I yelled "FIRE!" he instantly shut down grabbed his extinguisher .. but get this .. the zip tie they used on the release pin was so strong he couldn't break it. At least not quickly. Seeing him struggle I immediately grabbed a cutter out of his tool box and cut the tie. It all happened in less than 10 seconds.

Suggestion: cut a piece of 1/4" long 1/8" id silicone fuel tubing and shove it on the protruding end of the extinguisher pull ring and cut off the zip tie! It still holds it in place but comes off with an easy tug.

The problem on the viper was a bad tac weld on the left front strap on the pipe. It let loose and pipe deflected all the way to the right and the hot gasses hit the side of the fuse and cooked it very quickly. Not a liquid fuel fire, damage was pretty much stopped with the shutdown. But was still a mess.

That sucks...This thread is eye opening

Last edited by txshan130; 08-18-2015 at 06:33 PM.
Old 08-18-2015, 09:27 PM
  #33  
yeahbaby
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Or use a Velcro strap to secure pin
Old 08-19-2015, 10:22 AM
  #34  
SushiHunter
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Originally Posted by stevekott
Ok now for something else that seems silly. A good friend of mine was doing a maiden on a new SM Viper Jet.

He was doing a full power run up then ... BANG! ... then the white fiberglass on the left side of his fuse turned that ugly brown color .. I yelled "FIRE!" he instantly shut down grabbed his extinguisher .. but get this .. the zip tie they used on the release pin was so strong he couldn't break it. At least not quickly. Seeing him struggle I immediately grabbed a cutter out of his tool box and cut the tie. It all happened in less than 10 seconds.

Suggestion: cut a piece of 1/4" long 1/8" id silicone fuel tubing and shove it on the protruding end of the extinguisher pull ring and cut off the zip tie! It still holds it in place but comes off with an easy tug.

The problem on the viper was a bad tac weld on the left front strap on the pipe. It let loose and pipe deflected all the way to the right and the hot gasses hit the side of the fuse and cooked it very quickly. Not a liquid fuel fire, damage was pretty much stopped with the shutdown. But was still a mess.
I assume the zip tie you're referencing is an ordinary one. At which point who would put one of those on a fire extinguisher? The standard security ties that are placed on fire extinguishers are the type that break away easily so the extinguisher can be utilized in a fast action requiring minimal effort. There has to be more story with how that regular zip tie got on the extinguisher.
Old 08-19-2015, 01:19 PM
  #35  
grbaker
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The standard security ties that are placed on fire extinguishers are the type that break away easily so the extinguisher can be utilized in a fast action requiring minimal effort.
I have found several with the original safety ties that were very difficult to break.
Old 08-19-2015, 01:30 PM
  #36  
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I am an advocate for "hopefully not having to use a fire extinguisher". Upon starting an engine I always have my finger on the throttle trim tap, ready to abort a start up or to shut down at the earliest opportunity. Another word, during a start up (especially first start of the day, or after you have worked on your jet, like had it flipped over), always assume something will go wrong, even if the temperature just hangs for more than a few seconds. Having this technique of shutting down early should minimize or even avoid a fire damage.

I am NOT advocating NOT to having an extinguisher, because at the any given point of the shutdown, the subsequent extent of the anomaly was still uncertain.

Regards,
Barry
Old 08-19-2015, 02:43 PM
  #37  
afterburner
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Originally Posted by cmp3cantrj
Also bear in mind that the lawyer suing for damages will always go after a target that is able to pay. If your AMA insurance was invalidated by your failure to keep all the rules then they wouldn't sue you - they would sue your club, its officials or even the AMA itself. The AMA insurance would then be back in play. Because all the parties involved know all this the AMA insurance will simply handle your claim as normal.
AMA pays last unless the member has absolutely no insurance. Here is a snippet from the AMA coverage

"The coverage is “excess” over any other applicable insuranceavailable to each individual member, such as homeowner’s."

If you own a home or value the property you have, it pays to have an umbrella policy on your homeowners. Preferably a few million. It's not expensive to add on to your policy.
Old 08-19-2015, 03:20 PM
  #38  
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A Few years ago at Ky Jets two gentlemen were starting a plane when I heard that sound of a fire in the pipe. I watched for a few seconds as they did nothing and then I grabbed their extinguisher next to the plane. I could not get the zip tie off and by this time the whole back end of the plane was bubbling and smoking. I believe the plane was ruined but could have been easily saved.

The same day another guy had a small propane fire going in his fuse and was trying to put it out with his leaf blower making it worse. I grabbed my extinguisher and gave it a quick shot and it was out.
It's good to follow the rule of having a fire extinguisher but that doesn't do much good if you don't use it.
Old 08-19-2015, 08:34 PM
  #39  
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One thing is for sure, bad sh"t can happen fast with turbines. Not for anyone with any kind of diminished attention span for sure. Make sure Your mind can still think fast, Or maybe its time for board games!
Old 08-20-2015, 10:39 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by marquisvns
I am an advocate for "hopefully not having to use a fire extinguisher". Upon starting an engine I always have my finger on the throttle trim tap, ready to abort a start up or to shut down at the earliest opportunity. Another word, during a start up (especially first start of the day, or after you have worked on your jet, like had it flipped over), always assume something will go wrong, even if the temperature just hangs for more than a few seconds. Having this technique of shutting down early should minimize or even avoid a fire damage.

I am NOT advocating NOT to having an extinguisher, because at the any given point of the shutdown, the subsequent extent of the anomaly was still uncertain.

Regards,
Barry
Agree with all of that EXCEPT don't rely on the throttle trim. Have a separate 2 way switch separate from the throttle, programmed to shut down the engine. This is part of the GTBA safety code, endorsed by the BMFA. This is always quicker than using the throttle - which may require 2 movements.
Old 08-20-2015, 10:44 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by afterburner
AMA pays last unless the member has absolutely no insurance. Here is a snippet from the AMA coverage

"The coverage is “excess” over any other applicable insuranceavailable to each individual member, such as homeowner’s."

If you own a home or value the property you have, it pays to have an umbrella policy on your homeowners. Preferably a few million. It's not expensive to add on to your policy.
Of course if you have another insurance then you are a viable target - however the AMA doesn't get to choose who gets sued - if the injured party's lawyer decides to sue the AMA rather than you then they will have to pay.
Old 08-20-2015, 11:10 AM
  #42  
Vincent
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A rubber servo grommet works holding the pin in place.
Vin...
Old 08-20-2015, 11:57 AM
  #43  
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I use the yellow tygon fuel tube on my extinguisher pin, just a small piece.
I saw a pilot a KJ this year, he had minor a fire without having his own extinguisher handy, a short blast of C02 or even a blower would have put it out without incident, but he borrowed the closest extinguisher, and a short blast of ABC put it right out! What a mess of everything!
He was upset that someone would actually have a ABC extinguisher on the flight line! Heat of the moment thing, I get that!
Richard
Old 08-20-2015, 02:04 PM
  #44  
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Cannot see the original video?
Old 08-20-2015, 03:40 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Dozzer
I use the yellow tygon fuel tube on my extinguisher pin, just a small piece.
I saw a pilot a KJ this year, he had minor a fire without having his own extinguisher handy, a short blast of C02 or even a blower would have put it out without incident, but he borrowed the closest extinguisher, and a short blast of ABC put it right out! What a mess of everything!
He was upset that someone would actually have a ABC extinguisher on the flight line! Heat of the moment thing, I get that!
Richard
The sad thing is that a lot if not the majority of the offenders are experienced long time modelers who have had to have seen their share of fires. I have no sympathy for them if they lose a plane because they're too lazy to carry out an extinguisher. At KY there were times we got to the flightline and realized neither of us brought our extinguisher. Never did we rely on the extinguishers sitting around. Someone walked back and got one of ours.
Old 08-21-2015, 04:15 AM
  #46  
CraigG
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Originally Posted by afterburner
Never did we rely on the extinguishers sitting around.
And its a good idea not to leave yours sitting around. People too lazy to bring their own extinguisher to the flight line are never too lazy to grab and use yours when they need it. I now take a second extinguisher to events as a backup in case somebody else uses up my primary one.
Old 08-21-2015, 06:51 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by cmp3cantrj
Agree with all of that EXCEPT don't rely on the throttle trim. Have a separate 2 way switch separate from the throttle, programmed to shut down the engine. This is part of the GTBA safety code, endorsed by the BMFA. This is always quicker than using the throttle - which may require 2 movements.
This is why I like the Jet Cat feature of being able to use 2 channels for the turbine. You have the throttle channel, and an aux channel on a 3 position switch. One position is normal off, with a normal cool down, center is run, third position is emergency off. This will shut the turbine down immediately and not allow the cool down cycle. IF you do a normal shut down with a fire inside of the aircraft the last thing you need is a fan pumping in more fresh air. I do not know if other turbines have the ability to have an emergency shutdown with no cool down cycle.
I did have to use the emergency shutdown feature once when the whole vertical fin tore off in flight, the plane went into an uncontrollable flat spin, I was able to have the turbine shut down completely before impact, the fuel cell did rupture in the crash but there was no fire. I have no way to know if the emergency shut down saved a fire or if a normal shutdown and cool down cycle would have worked with no fire, but the cool down would have still been going and the turbine would have been spinning with dirt going thru it at impact. The abrupt shutdown did no harm to the turbine, it was sent in, checked out, and has since drank about 20 gallons of fuel.
Old 08-21-2015, 09:11 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by flyinfool1
This is why I like the Jet Cat feature of being able to use 2 channels for the turbine. You have the throttle channel, and an aux channel on a 3 position switch. One position is normal off, with a normal cool down, center is run, third position is emergency off. This will shut the turbine down immediately and not allow the cool down cycle. IF you do a normal shut down with a fire inside of the aircraft the last thing you need is a fan pumping in more fresh air. I do not know if other turbines have the ability to have an emergency shutdown with no cool down cycle.
I did have to use the emergency shutdown feature once when the whole vertical fin tore off in flight, the plane went into an uncontrollable flat spin, I was able to have the turbine shut down completely before impact, the fuel cell did rupture in the crash but there was no fire. I have no way to know if the emergency shut down saved a fire or if a normal shutdown and cool down cycle would have worked with no fire, but the cool down would have still been going and the turbine would have been spinning with dirt going thru it at impact. The abrupt shutdown did no harm to the turbine, it was sent in, checked out, and has since drank about 20 gallons of fuel.
I agree totally on this point although in some circumstances the cooldown cycle can actually help - if there is a fire in the tailpipe it can keep the flame out of the model - but this is only OK if there is no risk of a brushfire (as in the UK most times).

I have a Jetcat - and other older engines with my O/D ECU I have a separate channel on a switch.
On my Xicoy ECU engines with only one channel I achieve the same effect with a mix.

One other point. I have had 6 write off crashes (in 20 years) but never had a fire - All the models involved except one have had Dubro/Sullivan style plastic tanks and they have never ruptured. (The other one had a Kavan tank - which had flat sides and did break.)

People with fibreglass and even kevlar tanks seem to have frequent tank ruptures and often have fires. (of course the kevlar is pretty useless when encased in rigid resin).

I realise that for small volume production of tanks that fit particular a/c fibreglass is an easier way to go - but still...

Last edited by cmp3cantrj; 08-21-2015 at 09:16 AM.
Old 08-21-2015, 12:36 PM
  #49  
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With due respect, the velocity of cool down is probably too low to blow the flame out the pipe or model, but enough to feed oxygen. If there's fuel collected in those parts of the aircraft and burning, that's when you have to quickly put it out with your extinguisher. The idea is to shut down the start sequence before any part of the plane catches on fire.

One good thing about Xicoy ECU ( and perhaps with others as well ) is that when you abort during any stage of the start sequence, the ECU automatically goes into manual cool down mode, which I would depend on to carefully feed oxygen in to the combustion chamber to keep the fire alive within the engine to consume any flooding, to avoid subsequent wet start.

Regards,
Barry

Last edited by marquisvns; 08-21-2015 at 12:40 PM.
Old 08-21-2015, 01:05 PM
  #50  
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The Zip Tie I mentioned above was from the Manfacturer. It was wrapped through th bin 2x like a little bow tie holding on the tag and all. It look like a little ladder not a standard zip tie.

I like the servo grommet idea. Got a million of em.

It is funny about the Polyethylene tanks not rupturing as easy as the kevlar but that seems to be the experience. Kevlar is great for stopping bullets but doesn't have much give and flex as a fuel tank. I still like them.

Over the years I've had more crashes than I am proud to mention but just one fireball. In my opinion a post crash fire has mostly to do with the power state of the turbine. The fireball was at full power. All the others were either caused by an in air turbine/pipe/radio/thumb malfinction at low or no power and no fires. Fuel sprayed all over the place but the only one that burned was at full power on impact.

Happy Flying!

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