Are smaller models getting left behind?
09-28-2015, 11:07 AM
#76
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As is often the case, this thread has gone off in the weeds. I think the important points of this thread are:
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
2. For those here in the US I think there needs to be some efforts made to put a system in place to allow people to get their turbine waiver with this size aircraft.
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
2. For those here in the US I think there needs to be some efforts made to put a system in place to allow people to get their turbine waiver with this size aircraft.
09-29-2015, 01:01 AM
#77
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Agree
As is often the case, this thread has gone off in the weeds. I think the important points of this thread are:
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
2. For those here in the US I think there needs to be some efforts made to put a system in place to allow people to get their turbine waiver with this size aircraft.
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
2. For those here in the US I think there needs to be some efforts made to put a system in place to allow people to get their turbine waiver with this size aircraft.
Most of the smaller scale airframes out there are designed for low(ish) tech EDF. Consequently they have huge intakes which look bad and create a lot of drag. (The only exception to this is the Graupner 1400mm Viperjet.)
09-29-2015, 03:59 AM
#78
My Feedback: (34)
As is often the case, this thread has gone off in the weeds. I think the important points of this thread are:
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
2. For those here in the US I think there needs to be some efforts made to put a system in place to allow people to get their turbine waiver with this size aircraft.
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
2. For those here in the US I think there needs to be some efforts made to put a system in place to allow people to get their turbine waiver with this size aircraft.
But the topic was smaller modle being left behind. From what I read, like my self I consider small modles are 18 pounds thrust set ups. I never understood the K45 part of the hobby, these little motors cost just a little less than most 18-22 pounders. And with the speed, cost, weight I don't see a need to go smaller. As edf have really step up there game in the last 5 years. Buy that is me
Except the little turbines on the little speed planes (hotliners) and big gliders
Last edited by mikes68charger; 09-29-2015 at 04:02 AM.
09-29-2015, 04:43 AM
#79
As is often the case, this thread has gone off in the weeds. I think the important points of this thread are:
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
...snip....
1. With the attractive cost of the Kingtech K45 and I would suspect the M35 will be reasonable as well, there is a market for reliable airframes for these size engines.
...snip....
It's not known at this point what the price will be for the M35 when and if it is released. If Jet Munts find a way to hit an aggressive price point with it they will surely kick off a whole new interest in smaller kits. I held the M35 prototype at JP2014 and it appeared to be just beautiful. Would love to put one in my Habu32 but the price will determine the popularity of the excercise. IMO we would see more interest in this area if the Jetcat and Lambert Turbines were more affordable. I think Kingtech's pricing looks attractive for their 45nm unit.
09-29-2015, 06:27 AM
#80
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If you look at the Sebart mini avanti with the K45 the price for the whole thing would be around 2500,- (euro's sorry don't know in $$)
But saying this, you would never ever in the whole world get an 100N plane completely ready to fly for this price, not in a million years, it will at least cost 2x that!
So again what i mentioned before, looking at these prices it would get a lot more people in turbine........
It's simply to bad that there aren't more nice 20 to 45N airframes out there, i really think the big brand's are looking wrong at this market....
For example, if Carf would start producing the Spark again, and that for an reasonable price, in combination with the K45, that really would be a fun combo and easy to handle and transport.
But again, just my 2 cents
But saying this, you would never ever in the whole world get an 100N plane completely ready to fly for this price, not in a million years, it will at least cost 2x that!
So again what i mentioned before, looking at these prices it would get a lot more people in turbine........
It's simply to bad that there aren't more nice 20 to 45N airframes out there, i really think the big brand's are looking wrong at this market....
For example, if Carf would start producing the Spark again, and that for an reasonable price, in combination with the K45, that really would be a fun combo and easy to handle and transport.
But again, just my 2 cents
Last edited by Midas D.; 09-29-2015 at 06:31 AM.
09-29-2015, 09:10 AM
#81
The jet hobby has been traditional about status? Seriously? The guys I know who are passionate about jets and have the means for larger airframes could care less about "distinguishing" themselves from you. They do it to continue to push themselves in the hobby and could a rat's ass what someone else thinks.
09-30-2015, 07:58 AM
#83
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Here's the little beauty - 8.5 inches x 3in diameter of sheer delight:
Here's what I'm designing for it, around 65in span:
You can be sure that small jets aren't disappearing from my house and flying field. And the 44 sounds enough like a jet that my clubmates LOVE IT when I fly it regularly at our tiny tree-lined field.
Nor are small models disappearing from the slopes - this is a neat 37in span PSS JP popular in UK:
And here's a 900mm span 90mm edf version:
So small jets will always be kept alive by we scratch builders.
Fun is fun however much you choose to spend. 44-size models use ordinary sport servos and retracts and mix well with regular sport flying prop jobs in the air. What's not to like?
Gordon
Here's what I'm designing for it, around 65in span:
You can be sure that small jets aren't disappearing from my house and flying field. And the 44 sounds enough like a jet that my clubmates LOVE IT when I fly it regularly at our tiny tree-lined field.
Nor are small models disappearing from the slopes - this is a neat 37in span PSS JP popular in UK:
And here's a 900mm span 90mm edf version:
So small jets will always be kept alive by we scratch builders.
Fun is fun however much you choose to spend. 44-size models use ordinary sport servos and retracts and mix well with regular sport flying prop jobs in the air. What's not to like?
Gordon
09-30-2015, 08:03 AM
#84
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How sweet is this...
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...-xcalibur.html
Or this.....
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...ld-thread.html
Or this, although an M35 would make it the real combo you want ...
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...abu-32-sx.html
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...-xcalibur.html
Or this.....
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...ld-thread.html
Or this, although an M35 would make it the real combo you want ...
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...abu-32-sx.html
Last edited by Midas D.; 09-30-2015 at 08:06 AM.
09-30-2015, 02:10 PM
#87
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TBM, JTM, Phoenix models make small composite Jets
All these except for the JTMs are in the 700usd for arf range all of them made for EDF but can do turbines as well
TBM
72 inch F-16
85 inch Viper
72 inch Panther
72 inch Cougar
67 inch sport jet
JTM
72 inch viper
67 inch triple X
Skymaster
71 inch F-18
70 inch F-15
82 inch A-10
70 inch F-9F cougar
Phoenix models
72 inch L39
I would LOVE more large scale jets though, light and strongly built that can go either turbine or fan seeing 30lb thrust fans have been out for some time and the 40 and 50s are coming in around a year.
All these except for the JTMs are in the 700usd for arf range all of them made for EDF but can do turbines as well
TBM
72 inch F-16
85 inch Viper
72 inch Panther
72 inch Cougar
67 inch sport jet
JTM
72 inch viper
67 inch triple X
Skymaster
71 inch F-18
70 inch F-15
82 inch A-10
70 inch F-9F cougar
Phoenix models
72 inch L39
I would LOVE more large scale jets though, light and strongly built that can go either turbine or fan seeing 30lb thrust fans have been out for some time and the 40 and 50s are coming in around a year.
Last edited by erh7771; 09-30-2015 at 02:14 PM.
09-30-2015, 02:55 PM
#88
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85 inch wing span ultra viper.... It's a jet, perfect for a P70
https://youtu.be/BZRIPRxLZnY There would be more people flying jets if they could fly at 1100 for everything (retracts, fan, servos...etc)
Last edited by erh7771; 09-30-2015 at 03:00 PM.
09-30-2015, 04:13 PM
#89
One point no one has mentioned is a lot of club's attitude towards turbines.
I'll just buy a 'small' turbine model to fly at the local club's strip. Fine.
Then the 'fear' of turbine models starts (usually the other members' fear of someone having a cooler model than them!).
The same old arguments get rolled out, the noise, the fire risk, the 'it's not compatible with other models' line. Seen it all
before.
But they can't argue with a high end EDF, after all that's what they fly except theirs comes from Hobby King & costs 70 bucks.
EDF = go. Turbine = no go. Performance & expense can be similar but you cannot argue with ignorance.
IMO that's why small turbine models are not generally popular even though a lot of people could, perhaps, afford them.
John.
I'll just buy a 'small' turbine model to fly at the local club's strip. Fine.
Then the 'fear' of turbine models starts (usually the other members' fear of someone having a cooler model than them!).
The same old arguments get rolled out, the noise, the fire risk, the 'it's not compatible with other models' line. Seen it all
before.
But they can't argue with a high end EDF, after all that's what they fly except theirs comes from Hobby King & costs 70 bucks.
EDF = go. Turbine = no go. Performance & expense can be similar but you cannot argue with ignorance.
IMO that's why small turbine models are not generally popular even though a lot of people could, perhaps, afford them.
John.
09-30-2015, 06:03 PM
#90
My Feedback: (30)
Yeeeeah, its price...
The no question asked price in the US for a model of any kind and type for most in is 600 usd for everything (meaning install and go) and that's around 60% world wide
1000 tops for everything moves a vendor in the 40% us 25% world wide.
New turbines, even the small ones, are 2 stacks and are affordable to the 10% worldwide... that's just the turbine... not the whole model.
These toys are expensive relative the mean avg incomes of enthusiast...
in regards to EDF
The TBM Viper is 1100 with everything and the 200mph triple xxx is around 2000 with everything including good quality packs now.
There have been 25 - 30lbs EDF fans for years now so there's no more paying the same amount of money for big EDF than turbine (including packs seeing HK carries the quality big ones) just waiting on jets that will allow for big EDFs to fly them.
Going to convert my SM F-18E SH but having a a fan breath throw turbine ducting is a PITA... gotta tear it all out but there's more than enough FSA for a 14s XPS.
The no question asked price in the US for a model of any kind and type for most in is 600 usd for everything (meaning install and go) and that's around 60% world wide
1000 tops for everything moves a vendor in the 40% us 25% world wide.
New turbines, even the small ones, are 2 stacks and are affordable to the 10% worldwide... that's just the turbine... not the whole model.
These toys are expensive relative the mean avg incomes of enthusiast...
in regards to EDF
The TBM Viper is 1100 with everything and the 200mph triple xxx is around 2000 with everything including good quality packs now.
There have been 25 - 30lbs EDF fans for years now so there's no more paying the same amount of money for big EDF than turbine (including packs seeing HK carries the quality big ones) just waiting on jets that will allow for big EDFs to fly them.
Going to convert my SM F-18E SH but having a a fan breath throw turbine ducting is a PITA... gotta tear it all out but there's more than enough FSA for a 14s XPS.
Last edited by erh7771; 09-30-2015 at 06:11 PM.
10-02-2015, 10:36 AM
#91
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One point no one has mentioned is a lot of club's attitude towards turbines.
I'll just buy a 'small' turbine model to fly at the local club's strip. Fine.
Then the 'fear' of turbine models starts (usually the other members' fear of someone having a cooler model than them!).
The same old arguments get rolled out, the noise, the fire risk, the 'it's not compatible with other models' line. Seen it all
before.
But they can't argue with a high end EDF, after all that's what they fly except theirs comes from Hobby King & costs 70 bucks.
EDF = go. Turbine = no go. Performance & expense can be similar but you cannot argue with ignorance.
John.
I'll just buy a 'small' turbine model to fly at the local club's strip. Fine.
Then the 'fear' of turbine models starts (usually the other members' fear of someone having a cooler model than them!).
The same old arguments get rolled out, the noise, the fire risk, the 'it's not compatible with other models' line. Seen it all
before.
But they can't argue with a high end EDF, after all that's what they fly except theirs comes from Hobby King & costs 70 bucks.
EDF = go. Turbine = no go. Performance & expense can be similar but you cannot argue with ignorance.
John.
Now weigh and fly both. Point out that the EDF is no slower, no lighter and no noisier (although the sound is nicer).
Now their ignorance has no leg to stand on.
(Unfortunately they won't like you for that!)
10-02-2015, 01:33 PM
#92
My Feedback: (67)
We have similar issues at our local fields. They were very unfriendly to jet guys at first, but after a couple years they become very friendly with us. We initially have some bad jet guys at the field that don't listen or pay attention to safety. Then, we got all the jet guys to behave professionally and courteously. The club management are now very friendly with us and actually enjoy seeing us there when we have little jet together. I think it's got to do with attitudes. It's easy to associate arrogance and price of your toys. Now, they enjoy seeing us at the field because we gradually attracts more spectators and new members to the club. We can't keep everyone happy, but we have kept a good jet field when we practice discipline, respect and safety. Back to the subject, the big jets are impressive on the ground, but somehow big and small jets look about the same size in the air, because we tend to fly the laps proportionally to the size of jets. However, big jets look more realistic and has more perceived value than a smaller one has.
Mike
Mike
10-02-2015, 02:06 PM
#93
Here's the teaser to the small jet im working in developing. The plugs are undergoing final finishing and it'll utilize laser cut interlocking components for the wings and tail. Wing sheeting is done with G10 for s quick and easy build that produces a nearly ready to paint surface. I may end up doing an all composite version later. Sized for 90-110mm edf or MW44-K60 turbines. Landing gear is mounted in the fuse so it can be transported easily, removable outer wings and the complete tail section.
10-03-2015, 03:07 AM
#95
Here's the little beauty - 8.5 inches x 3in diameter of sheer delight:
Here's what I'm designing for it, around 65in span:
You can be sure that small jets aren't disappearing from my house and flying field. And the 44 sounds enough like a jet that my clubmates LOVE IT when I fly it regularly at our tiny tree-lined field.
Nor are small models disappearing from the slopes - this is a neat 37in span PSS JP popular in UK:
And here's a 900mm span 90mm edf version:
So small jets will always be kept alive by we scratch builders.
Fun is fun however much you choose to spend. 44-size models use ordinary sport servos and retracts and mix well with regular sport flying prop jobs in the air. What's not to like?
Gordon
Here's what I'm designing for it, around 65in span:
You can be sure that small jets aren't disappearing from my house and flying field. And the 44 sounds enough like a jet that my clubmates LOVE IT when I fly it regularly at our tiny tree-lined field.
Nor are small models disappearing from the slopes - this is a neat 37in span PSS JP popular in UK:
And here's a 900mm span 90mm edf version:
So small jets will always be kept alive by we scratch builders.
Fun is fun however much you choose to spend. 44-size models use ordinary sport servos and retracts and mix well with regular sport flying prop jobs in the air. What's not to like?
Gordon
Very nice Gordon. Will you do a build thread?
10-03-2015, 09:48 AM
#97
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This to me pretty sums it up to me.
1/4 scale...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjNe5D8A05A
and about 1/10 scale:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAyPsRB8IUg
this is why smaller models are getting left behind...it is not a status or any other psicological reason. :-)
1/4 scale...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjNe5D8A05A
and about 1/10 scale:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAyPsRB8IUg
this is why smaller models are getting left behind...it is not a status or any other psicological reason. :-)
10-03-2015, 09:59 AM
#98
Not yet. I'm purposely keeping mostly quiet on this one. Only a few people have seen the CAD renderings and mostly completed plugs.
Hopefully i'll have some info to post on it come the new year once the prototype is flying (the plan is to have a few at FL jets next year).
Hopefully i'll have some info to post on it come the new year once the prototype is flying (the plan is to have a few at FL jets next year).
10-04-2015, 08:54 AM
#100
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Hi Bob, I intend to once I've got construction underway. I'm aiming for a model with the same benign performance as my Nano, so it'll be about the same size and weight, Hopefully a bit lighter.
Here's my Nano 4 years ago. I'm still impressed by what 10lb thrust will do, and I still enjoy the same style of flying with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMC5zduZykE
Clearly I'll never make an F-104 pilot.
Gordon
Here's my Nano 4 years ago. I'm still impressed by what 10lb thrust will do, and I still enjoy the same style of flying with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMC5zduZykE
Clearly I'll never make an F-104 pilot.
Gordon