Advice Needed: How to survive a flameout in a Skymaster A-10
12-21-2015, 10:43 PM
#26
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Jeti radio and telemetry can be set up to monitor engine fuel flow, immediately recognize engine flame out, then give verbal "flame out left engine" or "flame out right engine" to pilot and can simultaneously apply counteracting full rudder when flame out condition is detected. Of course, a three-axis gyro can also assist in the pilot load. Basically there is lots of technology available to increase a conditional aircraft state where fractions of a second may mean the difference. In addition, these systems will reduce pilot load in critical situations. This is not meant to be a sales pitch for any brand hardware....just food for thought.
12-21-2015, 10:43 PM
#27
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Dantly that sounds like a great solution! Apply power in a dive!
Of course assuming you've got a little altitude. You could pick up a lot of kinetic energy that way that would allow you to glide to the runway without having to add any power when you are low and slow. I like it. It would seem that if you are heading downhill the asymmetrical thrust is a lot less of a problem than when you are heading uphill.
Of course assuming you've got a little altitude. You could pick up a lot of kinetic energy that way that would allow you to glide to the runway without having to add any power when you are low and slow. I like it. It would seem that if you are heading downhill the asymmetrical thrust is a lot less of a problem than when you are heading uphill.
12-21-2015, 11:27 PM
#28
It's much safer to monitor RPM my warning is at 17,500. I recorded my voice for "right engine fail" and my wife's voice for "left engine fail" therefore, right engine fail apply left rudder.
m
m
12-21-2015, 11:56 PM
#29
If you run my second video you can see the right engine flames out at 4m37secs because I was told which engine had failed the effect is almost unnoticeable. Obviously speed is an important factor in all this, keeping the fins and rudders active.
BTW these engines have since been back to Kingtec and the problems have been sorted out. They were very early 210s which had a temp sensor fault.
I hope this has been some use to you Dantly, like you I have lost and A10 and an F14 so I know the feeling well.
m
BTW these engines have since been back to Kingtec and the problems have been sorted out. They were very early 210s which had a temp sensor fault.
I hope this has been some use to you Dantly, like you I have lost and A10 and an F14 so I know the feeling well.
m
12-22-2015, 08:56 AM
#30
Just to add to the discussion, no matter what radio system you are using, you can always use the ASSI system and Android telemetry system I make 
(if you use JR, Spektrum or Futaba you can control the ASSI unit (autothrottle etc) and Futaba will even show the data on the transmitter also)
You will get an instant warning (voice message, most people have a Bluetooth earpiece when using the system) if one of the engines fails and also if fuel is getting low for any of them (it will tell you if it is righr or left engine etc). On top of that you can get a waring/callout when the airspeed is getting close to "scary"
(if you use JR, Spektrum or Futaba you can control the ASSI unit (autothrottle etc) and Futaba will even show the data on the transmitter also)
You will get an instant warning (voice message, most people have a Bluetooth earpiece when using the system) if one of the engines fails and also if fuel is getting low for any of them (it will tell you if it is righr or left engine etc). On top of that you can get a waring/callout when the airspeed is getting close to "scary"
12-22-2015, 09:04 AM
#34
Thread Starter
12-22-2015, 10:35 AM
#36
With my Mibo A-10 I had a flame out and it was a non event. I suspected it when I saw the old white smoke, but went through the whole flight without a problem. Only when I was in downwind that I noticed sluggish performance and that just confirmed the one engine running. I throttled up just a little bit to keep up the airspeed. When came for landing just pulled back the throttle and greased her in. Probably one of my best landings ever.
I had other problems with my A10 that was my fault. May she rest in peace.
Building another 5.5 right now and am putting in the CB electronics telemetry system for this one that will give data on both engines.
Good luck on the next one DUBD.
I had other problems with my A10 that was my fault. May she rest in peace.
Building another 5.5 right now and am putting in the CB electronics telemetry system for this one that will give data on both engines.
Good luck on the next one DUBD.
Just add a bit of rudder trim to counter the roll effect, add a bit of thrust and let it fly...
This is the ultimate jet model kit for a reason...
12-22-2015, 10:38 AM
#37
Dub, in full scale what you describe happening is known as a "VMC maneuver" in a multi-engine aircraft. So read up on that link, it should help answer some questions.
That said, the A-10 is going to be a handful on one engine as the rudders don't really have that much authority and as the wing loading goes up, so does the VMC or "Minimum single engine control speed" can't remember if one of you guys already spelled it out. But it's the slowest speed at which the control surfaces can counter act the asymmetric thrust of one engine. Now you might think that the engines being that close to the fuselage would make it so the problem isn't so bad. I've not flown an A-10 but I have flow some smaller biz jets and I can tell you that when the instructor does a simulated engine failure, you better be on your toes.
If you're too slow, the wing on the failed engine side will drop as the other rapidly comes up and if you don't stop it, it'll roll over and head for the ground. With props, you firewall the throttles, props all the way forward, mixtures all the way forward while you try to straighten things out then identify the failed engine. Might sound ridiculous but inside the airplane it can be initially difficult so that's why all the engine controls go forward.
Turbine? Bit different story as you have no increased prop wash over the tail feathers for some increased authority which hits almost instantly. Turbine has none of that, takes time to spool up and then more time to accelerate the airframe.
I'd say the best course of action would be as someone already talked about; get the nose down for some airspeed, if it still wants to roll or pulls hard to one side I'd reduce the power a bit until you can control it. Be aware that you may not be able to regain control if the airspeed is to low when it happens.
Hope that helps......
That said, the A-10 is going to be a handful on one engine as the rudders don't really have that much authority and as the wing loading goes up, so does the VMC or "Minimum single engine control speed" can't remember if one of you guys already spelled it out. But it's the slowest speed at which the control surfaces can counter act the asymmetric thrust of one engine. Now you might think that the engines being that close to the fuselage would make it so the problem isn't so bad. I've not flown an A-10 but I have flow some smaller biz jets and I can tell you that when the instructor does a simulated engine failure, you better be on your toes.
If you're too slow, the wing on the failed engine side will drop as the other rapidly comes up and if you don't stop it, it'll roll over and head for the ground. With props, you firewall the throttles, props all the way forward, mixtures all the way forward while you try to straighten things out then identify the failed engine. Might sound ridiculous but inside the airplane it can be initially difficult so that's why all the engine controls go forward.
Turbine? Bit different story as you have no increased prop wash over the tail feathers for some increased authority which hits almost instantly. Turbine has none of that, takes time to spool up and then more time to accelerate the airframe.
I'd say the best course of action would be as someone already talked about; get the nose down for some airspeed, if it still wants to roll or pulls hard to one side I'd reduce the power a bit until you can control it. Be aware that you may not be able to regain control if the airspeed is to low when it happens.
Hope that helps......
I agree with what Zebb wrote. In an engine failure speed is life. I also agree with Craig. I just don't agree that apply rudder is mandatory.
On full scale planes you have to first fly the plane and then there is a rule where dead foot = dead engine. This is special important on prop twins that you have to feather the dead engine so the plane can fly without the dead prop drag. If you feather the good engine you are dead just like happened in Asia ATR crash earlier this year.
Getting back on models is not easy to know which engine is dead and then apply rudder. If you have enough speed and no gyro plane will fly without rudder correction. The secret is get to a safe altitude on landing circuit and then bring good engine to idle and glide to landing. This is exactly what my friend did on the video below. He was not sure which engine quit so applied no rudder at all. You can see the plane flying sidewards above field.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htH7k1vZUhA
Gabriel
12-22-2015, 11:08 AM
#38
Thread Starter
12-22-2015, 11:12 AM
#39
Dual jetcat monitoring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3MHPmhMACs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3MHPmhMACs (no need for the displays unless you think they are cool )
and then add the Android telemetry system (also available from Ultimate Jets): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n28znVqEOsc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n28znVqEOsc and you are never in doubt whats going on....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3MHPmhMACs (no need for the displays unless you think they are cool
)and then add the Android telemetry system (also available from Ultimate Jets): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n28znVqEOsc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n28znVqEOsc and you are never in doubt whats going on....
12-22-2015, 12:07 PM
#41
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I believe it has a lot to do with the wing and cube loading of the aircraft. The Mibo lives thru this without any real issue. The Skymaster is smaller and very heavy for it's size in this airframe type. I believe the cube loading and wing loading is horrible for this airframe type compared to the Mibo.
12-22-2015, 01:05 PM
#42
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Lots of good info on this thread, another point with VMC is your angle off attack. (VMC is normally calculated in level flight) My first reaction if I loose an engine is to pitch too zero g if I'm slow and Gain Speed. Think of how you do a snap roll and do the opposite . It will be hard to figure out what engine has flamed out so let the gyro do some work and go for a safe speed, if u guess wrong on the rudder hello mister spin 
I have had several flameouts with the old F-14 half I could not tell what engine was out until I got around the pattern and could see the yaw, rudder trim was almost more trouble than it was worth and I did not use it. Keep some extra speed,not a lot, until lined up reduce power land normal.
High wing load = high AOA but only in level flight so if u have some altitude trade if for speed and gain rudder/vertical stab control.
I have had several flameouts with the old F-14 half I could not tell what engine was out until I got around the pattern and could see the yaw, rudder trim was almost more trouble than it was worth and I did not use it. Keep some extra speed,not a lot, until lined up reduce power land normal. High wing load = high AOA but only in level flight so if u have some altitude trade if for speed and gain rudder/vertical stab control.
12-22-2015, 03:28 PM
#43
My Feedback: (21)
I have flown prop models where the engine quit in flight and the plane suddenly try's to roll into the dead engine. Just add rudder opposite of the roll to control the airplane. Keep the nose level or slightly down and fly the pattern to land. Be very carefull adding drag and hold the gear till you have the runway made where it will take little or no power .
I have not had it happen with a gyro , but I'm sure it would be a lot more difficult to determine which one is dead. I would just let the gyro handle the rudder and let the pilot maintain a safe speed
I have not had it happen with a gyro , but I'm sure it would be a lot more difficult to determine which one is dead. I would just let the gyro handle the rudder and let the pilot maintain a safe speed
Last edited by Bobneal1; 12-22-2015 at 03:35 PM.
12-22-2015, 03:37 PM
#44
Hi Dantly
I went through all of this three years ago and researched it to death, the final conclusion was : 1- Mibo handles the engine out better than Skymaster. 2- skymaster A10 does much better without the turbo fans than when it has the fans installed. Maybe they add much more drag to the stalled engine side? 3- lighter Skymaster does better than the heavier one (since you have one already. So, I sold mine (now mike has it) and got a large Hawk to be safe. But the hawk did not survive the maiden. So, I should have kept the A10, ��
Behzad
I went through all of this three years ago and researched it to death, the final conclusion was : 1- Mibo handles the engine out better than Skymaster. 2- skymaster A10 does much better without the turbo fans than when it has the fans installed. Maybe they add much more drag to the stalled engine side? 3- lighter Skymaster does better than the heavier one (since you have one already. So, I sold mine (now mike has it) and got a large Hawk to be safe. But the hawk did not survive the maiden. So, I should have kept the A10, ��
Behzad
12-22-2015, 04:59 PM
#46
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I have never had a flame out on my turbines knock on wood what causes this to happin ??? my email is [email protected] thanks is it a pump or air can you run 2 uat in series for no bubbles
12-22-2015, 05:31 PM
#47
I have never had a flame out on my turbines knock on wood what causes this to happin ??? my email is [email protected] thanks is it a pump or air can you run 2 uat in series for no bubbles
The suction drag would be too high and create cavitation. Have a look at this article:
http://www.ultimate-jets.net/blogs/f...ing-cavitation
12-22-2015, 05:34 PM
#48
12-22-2015, 06:09 PM
#49
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I have not had a flame out is it a bubble in the line ? if so how did it get there ? next can one turbine pump not put enough pressure for take off can anybody know if two turbines pumps run equal when I do my first start ups I almost finish a full tank then refuel always see some bubble starting and when the bubble passes you can here the engine pop a little but cleans out and its ready back to the what is the cause of a flame out??????????
12-22-2015, 06:21 PM
#50
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thank you so what is a flame out pump calibration cant handle flow and leans out just a little and cant recover fast enough ?/ or is just bubbles I run my turbines a little fat also diesel ecu cant run same as kero different flash point