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Incompatibility with CAT air trap and Kingtech/Jetcat engines?

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Incompatibility with CAT air trap and Kingtech/Jetcat engines?

Old 02-29-2016, 06:21 AM
  #76  
Juiced76
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Hi Marc s, I have 2 CAT's M, one for smoke and one for the Jetcat P100RX in my Viper jet.

A friend of mine tols me because of the filtering of the CAT I should not use any other filter in the fuel system (off course making sure very well filtered fuel get's to the tanks.). So not even a filter between the pump and the turbine, is this something you would recommend as well?

Thanks, Joost
Old 02-29-2016, 06:26 AM
  #77  
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Hi Joost

The filter in the CAT is very fine and will prevent any damaging debris reaching the pump, as long as your fuel is well filtered before it gets pumped into your tanks and the tanks are well cleaned (assuming its a new tank etc) then there is no need for any additional filters.

The more restrictions you add to a system the more likely you will get problems with cavitation etc and possible leaks where fittings are introduced in pipe runs.

Safe flying and appreciate the support.

marcs
Old 03-31-2016, 12:55 PM
  #78  
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Running a K45 on a Cat 80V2, can only say one thing, FLAWLESS!!! excellent pice of kit!!
Old 03-31-2016, 04:35 PM
  #79  
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I would like to share my recent experience. I was at Redflag with my hawk. I had just installed a fresh 210g. I had about 6 flights on it up til then. Again I have been flying my 180g in this new hawk for at least 30+ with no issues. It flamed out 2 times before at Redflag before I figured out the problem.

The fuel system was exactly the same as my first one. I am using the same size CAT as the first one.

I found the CAT half full on the second flame out. Both flame out were 3/4 way thru the flight. Once I saw that I knew what the problem could be.

I pull the tank out (5Liter single). I did a simple test. I marked the tank and used my fueling tank pump to pull out about 2" inchs of fuel. It took a little over a minute.

Pull the clunk out. The fiber cover was clean but I replaced it with GBR large clunk. I also changed the vent inside the tank becuase it may had been restricted my kinks in the bending to the top.

Once completely back together I perform the same test. It took lest than 45 seconds to pull the same amount that took over a minute before.

Now after a full 6 1/2 minute flight my airtrap has only a very small air bubble and that came from the fueling.

Another thing I discovered is this K210g is using a lot more fuel. I don't have no where near as much left in the tank after a flight as the first one I had.

I guess that would also explain the big difference in power. The new one seem to have a lot more power than my serial #11

Kinda of caught me off guard also at first and I thought like everyone else would have that it was too small or restrictive air trap but if you look really hard you can find the real reason. Love my CAT and my Kingtech.
Old 04-01-2016, 03:05 AM
  #80  
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The fuel setup in one of the things that I pay a lot of attention to when building a model, because to me, it is the single most important cause of flameouts if not setup correctely. on my Scorpion and Tomcat, other than the pickups in the tanks, there is not a single lenght of tygon used. 6MM festo on all feed lines up to the pump, and 4mm from there to the turbine, with a Jetcat filter between the pump and engine. Have not had a single flameout, other than the one discribed below (filter issue)

One thing on the jetcat filters, or any other filter for that matter: I had one single flameout on a P100, and as far as I can determine, it was due to the filter being mounted flat. the run before the flight had been a ground test with only a little fuel in the tanks, and the engine flamed out because of fuel starvation. I fueled up for the flight, but I forgot to purge the filter.... as the filter was mounted flat, air had accumulated in it, and eventually reached the engine. to prevent this, always mount your filters with the out-side facing up.

And again, FILTER your fuel before it goes in...... Felt clunk in my fuelling station, automotive paper pleat filter before the filler pump, another Jetcat filter in the fill line....


I have two CAT traps in my Tomcat, and I'm sure my next plane will have one too. absolutely love them! even thinking of retrofitting the Scorpion with one.....

One question to Marc: would it be possible to have festo connections on the trap instead of barbs? ( for 6MM Festo all round?)

Wim
Old 04-01-2016, 04:20 AM
  #81  
marc s
 
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Wim,

It would be possible to add Festo fittings, the reason I don't fit them to the CAT range is mainly due to two things.

Firstly they are more suited to pressure applications rather than suction, and secondly being a complex fitting there is a bigger chance something will fail resulting in an air leak. A barb is like a key, its simple and very good at its job if correctly used/designed. A pipe pushed over a barb and security wired will in my opinion be far more reliable than any push fit type fitting.

Wim, appreciate your support and happy safe flying.

marcs
Old 04-01-2016, 04:41 AM
  #82  
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Hey Marc,

thx for your feedback.

Basically, I agree with you.... although Festo fittings, if used and maintained properly (tubing cut perfectly at 90°) are certified for vacuum operation.

The reason I asked about the fittings is quite simple: When I build a plane, next to trying to achieve an as neat and tidy install as possible, I also try to include some "ease of maintenance". this will help me in not putting off maintanance because it takes too much effort or time. I'll use an example of something I did on the Tomcat. Both pumps, CAT4s and final fuel filters are mounted to a plate that is mounted aft of the cockpit, just in front of the central tank. All connections, both fuel and electrical, are made in such a way that this "module" can be taken out easily. For the fuel lines, this meant having a 6mm Festo connection on the feed line from the tank to the Cat's. rather than having an inline 6/6mm connector, I changed the barbed fitting on the tank caps (A10-style, SM owners will know what I mean) to a 6MM/M5 fitting. one less connection, and I can (more or less) easily unplug the lines from the tank, and more importantly, put them back. If I had kept the barbed fitting, replacing that piece of tube would have meant splitting the fuse again, because there's no way you could get a 6MM line over that fitting, let alone safety wire it... I can even take out the tank caps without having to slpit the fuse....


So, in certain installations, it could be an advantage to have festo's..... just don't use them with Tygon!!!! (as you probably noted I'm no real fan of tygon in jets... ;-) )

Wim
Old 04-01-2016, 07:37 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by marc s
Wim,

It would be possible to add Festo fittings, the reason I don't fit them to the CAT range is mainly due to two things.

Firstly they are more suited to pressure applications rather than suction, and secondly being a complex fitting there is a bigger chance something will fail resulting in an air leak. A barb is like a key, its simple and very good at its job if correctly used/designed. A pipe pushed over a barb and security wired will in my opinion be far more reliable than any push fit type fitting.

Wim, appreciate your support and happy safe flying.

marcs
Dear Marc,

Don't you DARE put festo's on your beautiful CAT's!!!
Old 04-01-2016, 07:41 AM
  #84  
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Well yes there is that too

marcs
Old 04-01-2016, 10:23 AM
  #85  
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Concerning the picture of what looks like fiberglass debris on the screen. Could it have been generated when the fiberglass tank was cut open?

I have made my own version of the CAT tank for about 20 years. I use an automotive fuel filter, some parts I machine, and a Sullivan tank. When I started this I thought about how often I might want to change the filter. This is an automotive fuel filter, and most of us don’t change them in our cars more often than 50,000 miles, if even then. So if you get 30 MPG you would be changing it after about every 1,700 gallons of fuel. So since I filter the fuel into my jets better than I filter the fuel into my car I decided that I would probably never have to change the filter in the jet. So CATs decision to seal the system makes a lot of sense. It also makes me think that if someone is having an issue it probably is not due to a lack of pre-filtering.

One thing I have seen over the years is the growth of something in my fuel system that I strongly suspect would have plugged the filter. I saw the black clumps of stuff in a fuel line while getting the model ready to go flying. I took the fuel system apart, cleaned it and replaced the filter and all was well. I would tend to think this is more likely the culprit behind the issues being reported. It probably would not have matter what filter system was being used, it would have been plugged up, and changing the filter would have fixed it – for now.
Old 04-01-2016, 10:11 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by ravill
Dear Marc,

Don't you DARE put festo's on your beautiful CAT's!!!

..............And why not ? Festo fittings are just absolutely fine as SO many fine engine and tank accessory manufacturers prove !

And there's nothing at all wrong with Tygon either, been using it on board for years. Of course it's size is not compatible with Festo fittings , it was never intended to be. Some of my tanks have had Tygon inside and out for over 13 years, still fine !!

Last edited by David Gladwin; 04-02-2016 at 07:22 AM.
Old 04-02-2016, 04:39 PM
  #87  
Mike Haddox
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+ 1
Originally Posted by David Gladwin
..............And why not ? Festo fittings are just absolutely fine as SO many fine engine and tank accessory manufacturers prove !

And there's nothing at all wrong with Tygon either, been using it on board for years. Of course it's size is not compatible with Festo fittings , it was never intended to be. Some of my tanks have had Tygon inside and out for over 13 years, still fine !!
Old 04-03-2016, 12:24 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by David Gladwin
..............And why not ? Festo fittings are just absolutely fine as SO many fine engine and tank accessory manufacturers prove !

And there's nothing at all wrong with Tygon either, been using it on board for years. Of course it's size is not compatible with Festo fittings , it was never intended to be. Some of my tanks have had Tygon inside and out for over 13 years, still fine !!
+1
Old 04-03-2016, 02:31 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by David Gladwin
..............And why not ? Festo fittings are just absolutely fine as SO many fine engine and tank accessory manufacturers prove !

And there's nothing at all wrong with Tygon either, been using it on board for years. Of course it's size is not compatible with Festo fittings , it was never intended to be. Some of my tanks have had Tygon inside and out for over 13 years, still fine !!
+1
Joe Grice
Old 04-03-2016, 05:56 PM
  #90  
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+1 clearly some idiots that are looking at marketing BS...

Sad...

Dean W.
Old 04-03-2016, 11:48 PM
  #91  
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Guys really don't think this needs to be debated any more, its not a PR thing just my preference for connection, barbs are tried and tested and involve nothing which can fail and I like to keep things simple.

Maybe the CAT-V3 will sport some different connection options

marcs
Old 04-04-2016, 06:31 AM
  #92  
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I have been flying a K-140 in a torus for the last five years(5) with no trouble. The cat airtrap works perfect. The only problem is the O rings have
to be changed every year.
Old 04-04-2016, 11:45 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by marc s
Guys really don't think this needs to be debated any more, its not a PR thing just my preference for connection, barbs are tried and tested and involve nothing which can fail and I like to keep things simple.

Maybe the CAT-V3 will sport some different connection options

marcs
I suggest you offer the CAT with an option of barbs or Festo fittings. Intairco supply their VERY nicely made AirTrap with Festo fittings and a very useful defuelling coupling, as well as an optional second input. My Airworkd Hawks have a Feso fittings on the main fuel supply line from the tank , easily removed so I can connect a defuelling line, to drain the tank, the CAT is still always bubble free after every flight, the Festo doesn't leak !
David.
Old 04-05-2016, 12:02 AM
  #94  
marc s
 
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David and others.

I appreciate the option for a Festo type fitting is becoming more sought after and this is already something I have considered on the new CAT V3 which will be launched at Jetpower this year, I cannot divulge any of the new/unique design features at this stage but it will take the 'bubble trap' concept to the next level, what I can say however is it will have the option for Festo fittings.

I would like to add for the record that the current CAT V2 (and V1) uses a pleated paper fuel filter as the central pickup, this filter is designed to be immersed and remain immersed in fuel for it to perform its function correctly, therefor the design of the CAT currently does not have a drain option as the fuel is not supposed to be drained, I have customers with 6 year old CAT's which have sat with fuel in them for this time and work 100% every time, it's how the product was designed.

The 'new' V3 however might have a drain

marcs
Old 04-05-2016, 12:28 AM
  #95  
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Marc,

Keep up the good work with your CAT's, it is an excellent product and lighter than the competitive alternative......but Festo fittings will be a rather nice option.

Cheers,

Jan
Old 04-05-2016, 12:49 AM
  #96  
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Great success for my CATs too.
And the 130ml CAT works perfect on both JetCat P160SX and JetsMunt 200XBL.

And I'll add... Barbs for me!


Mauri
Old 04-05-2016, 01:49 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by David Gladwin
..............And why not ? Festo fittings are just absolutely fine as SO many fine engine and tank accessory manufacturers prove !

And there's nothing at all wrong with Tygon either, been using it on board for years. Of course it's size is not compatible with Festo fittings , it was never intended to be. Some of my tanks have had Tygon inside and out for over 13 years, still fine !!
+10
Old 04-06-2016, 08:25 AM
  #98  
ravill
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Originally Posted by David Gladwin
..............And why not ? Festo fittings are just absolutely fine as SO many fine engine and tank accessory manufacturers prove !

And there's nothing at all wrong with Tygon either, been using it on board for years. Of course it's size is not compatible with Festo fittings , it was never intended to be. Some of my tanks have had Tygon inside and out for over 13 years, still fine !!
Because Mr. Gladwin, I do believe the manufacturer said it best!
Old 04-17-2016, 08:20 PM
  #99  
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Hi marc
sent you a pm mate really need advice if possible thanks for your time
Regards Wayne owen
Old 03-13-2018, 11:50 AM
  #100  
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I have a friend who's Ziroli Panther was reaching pump limit, and the plane was flaming out. The UAT was a plastic one, maybe polyethylene, looked like a little water bottle. I don't know the brand. Getting a Cat UAT fixed the problem. Also, on a different plane, I had a tank fill issue (was taking too long to fuel) and in the process of fixing that I noticed some gum and slime in the tank, and around the clunk. The cause of that was fuel reacting with brass (perhaps some zinc and/or lead alloyed into the brass). There is little choice in this, except don't use a bare brass clunk. Get a chrome plated one. The tubing is something we're stuck with because chrome and nickel plating would just crack when you bend the fuel line to shape. Bottom line is to maintain the tanks. Here's a pic of the gum. Kind of reminds me of what was found in that screen earlier in this thread.
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