FenderBean

Man lots of arm chair quarterbacking going on, KY jets is probably the best ran flightline you will see. Even as a spotter it is hard to keep up with every jet when the pattern is full. Then add in the noise of the jets and people yelling at various times it can be very difficult to avoid. I think what would help relieve this kind of stress would be to limit the number in the air at a given time. It's just my opinion but 5 should be the max, but that's just me. Accidents do happen and will continue to happen best we can do is set rules at the events to help lower the risk. Cheers

Birdman6310

5 Jets in the air at any time is far too many and asking for trouble. Spectators cant cope with that number also. 3 at once is more than enough

gunradd

My Feedback: (9)

I am comfortable with 5. At no time at this event did a feel like traffic was a problem.

erh7771

My Feedback: (30)

+1,

Read and hear more about techniques for landing than spotting...

Would love to read something official or what's common practices

AV8ATOR

My Feedback: (5)

Has any one thought of or tried communication gear for pilots flying.

FenderBean

I will second the lack of stress on the flightline this year, I mentioned this to several people including Lewis it was slow paced flightline compared to prior years.

NZjet

I have never understood why you guys have separate pilots boxes spread waaayyy along the runway. Over here we all just stand next to each other and can happily communicate without issue. Whats wrong with that idea?

Jgwright

+1 We do the same in the Uk. With jets we usually have no more than 4 sometimes 5 in the air at one time. The pilots all stand in the same box and the spotters are behind them. The flight director stands in the box also making sure everyone follows the flight rules. Planes going out to takeoff, taxi out from one end of the box and those landing come in the other side. I have thought for some time that in the USA pilots go far too long way down the runway for takeoff. With the usually overpowered models takeoff runs are normally pretty short. This must clog up things. I personally see nothing wrong with a go around to check the wheels are down but the pilot should tell the other pilots he will be landing the next circuit. This can easily be done when all are standing side by side. The other thing that we see as a difference is the flying styles between the USA and UK is that most of the pilots in the UK do not fly flat out all the time. If you are flying flat out in a low pass it should be shouted out before the pass to the other pilots. The direction of flight is normally dictated by the wind direction and mid airs are unusual when all follow the same direction of circuits.

As with motor cars accidents can happen but when rammed from behind there can be only one person to blame.

John

Bob_B

My Feedback: (11)

Nevative Ghost Rider the pattern is full!

basimpsn

My Feedback: (5)

I think 72Mhz at the time need separation.

why_fly_high

My Feedback: (19)

This is correct. Back years ago the AMA recommended like 20 ft between pilots because of 2 radios close together even on different frequencies could interfere with each other.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

The 3D guys stand next to each other as common practice these days so we can communicate

Vincent

My Feedback: (61)

Are the flight stations at KJ spread out down the flight line??

gunradd

My Feedback: (9)

No they are all right next to each other..... Mute point on this crash

Boomerang1

Always lots of crashes at big jet meets.

When you think of it 5 jets in the sky at once is fine - if things are going smoothly, no one has mechanical problems,
everyone behaves themselves, everyone knows what they are doing, the flight line director has everything under control ......

Having been in the situation with a jet on fire on the runway after the engine farted on throttle up, two models stranded on
the strip, another in a critical fuel situation & myself circling at low throttle waiting for a critical fuel situation it can become
a situation brown very quickly. Fortunately the director had a cool head, was an experienced jet pilot and a good organiser
and communicator.

After being a regular attender at jet fly-ins (most fly-ins for that matter) for quite a few years I'm not a huge fan any more.
With available fields & clubs for turbines being very limited in Oz jet flys tend to end up being hosts to the fly every six month
guys, test flights of new models and the only safe way to fly is round & round to avoid other models. When you add in the
hot shots who get bored with flying round & round & decide to liven things up a bit, well, you can guess the rest.

[QUOTE][ I have thought for some time that in the USA pilots go far too long way down the runway for takeoff./QUOTE]

For safety the last fly in I went to had a maximum of 20 metres down wind start for the take off run so the models weren't
travelling at 100 kmh when they passed the pilots box. I guess with a further kilometre of runway available up wind it doesn't
matter much.

yellowbird911

I completely agree with Boomarang1 on this point. I've been to several jet rallies and always amazed how long some guys are on the runway. Most jets become fuel critical at 6-7 minutes unlike a gas plane that can easily fly for 10 minutes. I've own a few 50+ pound jets and off asphalt have never "needed" to travel down wind to the end of the runway accept to make a more "scale " take off. Do realize there are a few exceptions out there. Several guys eat up 30+ seconds on the runway making long slow taxis then, set timers, take deep breath, and finally throttle up. This is how we always fly at our home field but with 6 jets in the air it just doesn't make sense to me. Would be easy to pull out down wind of flight stands and still have plenty of room for takeoff.

Also a plane is many times the most unstable just after lift off. Have never been a fan of planes breaking ground before the flight stands. Personally I will not let any plane I'm flying break ground before the last flight stand. In 20 years of flying I've seen plenty of near misses when a plane lifts off and rolls or yaws towards the poor fella in the last flight stand. Have even been the fella that had to duck or be clobbered by a 30 pound warbird.

gunradd

My Feedback: (9)

My F15 needs all that runway.

BTW at Kentucky the most of the planes like sport jets just turned out and took off with out back taxi.

yellowbird911

Not pointing fingers and stated there are exceptions. Just that it is not a point made in the pilots meetings. We have all seen jets travel to the far end of the runway and be airborne in 150 feet. Anything that can cut down on flightline conjestion and improve safety should be considered.

TTRotary

Newer jet pilot here ( and also FS pilot). I concur with the notion that 5 in the air is too many for an event like this. Skill levels vary tremendously, and even more so among spotters. I personally don't see what pilots or spectators get out of a show where there that many planes in the air at once. Better to fly fewer, display quality flights with each plane/pilot having the airspace to show off the plane and the skills. Especially at a jet event where everyone is basically bingo fuel, and managing complex, large, and expensive aircraft. God knows, you'd never see FS doing an airshow like this.

And it is not as if these are not dangerous aircraft. If the Hawk (or whatever it was) had been 0.5 sec further back than it was, the -16 would have struck it mid-turn with the momentum velocity of the junk/fuel headed towards the pits. I have to assume that since neither pilot nor spotter saw the plane where it was, right in front of them, they would not have seen it further to their left.

I see comments on how good the flightline management was at this event. That's nice but it is irrelevant to what is happening in the air. As any FS knows, you live or die by separation, airspace, and time.

I realize that this seems anathema to these jet-fests, where the pilots all expect and demand air time, and might not attend if they could not get a slot, but that pressure is not worth the ramifications of a serious accident. Our hobby is in enough peril as it is.

I am not pointing fingers here, wasn't there, and understand JOK to be a well-organized event. But when I see and hear that video, I see low-level chaos, leading to a MAC that could have been avoided. Mostly, I feel badly for the pilots and spotters who lost their aircraft in this manner.

yellowbird911

-Deleted-

tp777fo

My Feedback: (28)

This was never intended to to be a dig on any jet rally. It is a dig on having low and slow mixed with high speed flybys. I fly down the runway at normal speed look for a gap and turn to position my jet on downwind. Throttle idle, 2 potatoes, gear down, 2 more potatoes, half flaps, 2 more potatoes, full flaps and turn. I can see my gear on downwind and final. If not down I go around and work problem. I hate to wait 2-3 minutes burning fuel waiting to take off with guys doing gear on downwind, fly by low and slow, turn downwind and then land. Like i said before i can be on the ground 30 seconds after calling landing and minimize my risk of low and slow. Not a dig on guys who lost jets either . Just a better way to speed up traffic pattern and minimize the risk to our jets. Try it...you just might like it.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

The flyin was for the pilots. We enjoy spectators and their parking fees help support the airport and thus the event in future years, but the pilots are the ones who spend hundreds, if not thousands, to attend, so their desires come first. The pilots who were comfortable flying with 5 planes in the air, did so, those who were not, stayed on the ground until the flight line was less busy.


Most of the time there actually weren't 5 planes in the air, but when there were, it was generally very organized. This crash was a aberration, and as someone pointed out earlier, they couldn't have done this on purpose if they tried.

If you hold a flyin where pilots have to fly during a specific slot, I *guarantee* it will only happen once, because nobody will come back. the fact that Kentucky Jets draws over 150+ pilots *every year* is a testament to how well it, and its flight line, are run.

This is completely wrong. Both aircraft were flying parallel to the flight line and the safety line. ALL turns into the direction of the flight line/spectators were made well down wind - as is the rule at Kentucky Jets, presented at every pilots meeting.

Actually, you are. You're implying that a serious accident could happen at Kentucky Jets without being there or admittedly having the experience to know what works on a jet event flight line and what does not.

This mid-air was very unfortunate, but personal safety was never compromised and when ever more than one airplane is in the air, a mid-air can happen.

Bob

causeitflies

JOK is a week long event. It is only during a very small time slot on one or sometimes two days that it could be called a show. This is a pilots' flying event so naturally everyone wants to fly. In years past there were eight planes in the air at once so five or six is really a relief.

Out of hundreds of flights from dawn to dark every day there are amazingly few incidents considering the number of flights.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Tom,

I think everyone gets your point, but the issue is, some pilots can do that with some planes, but some can not. Most guys need a little more than 30 seconds to get situated on a controlled approach in order to make a decent landing.

The issue at Kentucky Jets was that it was difficult to get guys off the ground in a comfortable fashion when guys made "short" circuits like you are describing. When the pattern was lengthened, it worked out much better in terms of being able to get guys off the ground - whether they back-taxied before beginning their takeoff roll or not.

Did this contribute to the mid-air, perhaps, but the Hawk was about at the point where must guys turned outbound anyway, without the request to extend the gear passes. The spotters could have *possibly* helped to avoid the mid-air, but it may have happened anyway...

Bob

yellowbird911

TTRotory is intitled to his opinion and should not be torn apart for it.

When you say those who are not comfortable with 5 jets in the air can fly when it slows down you mean they won't fly at all because there are always 5 jets in the air. As soon as you think it is a good times to go up with only a few other planes in the air everyone else thinks it's a good time to go up as well. The rally's should not just cater to the best, most experienced and most confident. I'd be the first in line to attend a jet rally that limited it to 4 in the air.