RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

Bavarian Demon Cortex PRO is here!!

Reply
Old 10-11-2017, 07:57 AM
  #376
wfield0455
 
wfield0455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Holliston, MA
Posts: 1,003
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by F1 Rocket View Post
Not new. We thought the engine shut downs were being caused by the CB going into failsafe but this was not the case. Looking further into it we found what I described above.
Thinking about this a bit more, does this mean that these turbine shutdowns were occurring even for guys that had their secondary receiver connected directly to a CB200 because the Cortex Pro was still always sending data (it's own pseudo fail-safe data learned during setup) to the Sat 1 port ? If so that would seem to indicate that the connection scheme of Primary Rx to Cortex Pro and Secondary Rx to CB200 doesn't accomplish anything since as long as the CB200 is receiving valid data on Sat1 from the Cortex Pro it will never use the data from Sat 2 ? In other words does this mean that guys flying with their secondary Rx connected directly to Sat2 of the Cb200 are basically fling only on the primary receiver ? Would it work any better if the Secondary Rx is connected via the Cortex Pro.

Just trying to understand this issue more fully as I was planing on flying my Hawk this weekend which has a Cortex Pro and CB200 and if this is the case I'll either completely remove the Cortex Pro from the airplane for now or leave it grounded until V1.5 is available.
wfield0455 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 10:50 AM
  #377
Dansy
 
Dansy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prescott, Ont.
Posts: 872
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I think �� at least I interpreted what they said by doing the following, when teaching my Cortex with CB100/200/400 to connect only the servos that uses the gyro....

So what I did is disconnect the turbine, flaps, retracts ect......do the learn...then reconnect all the stuff....I will pause my flying until this is clear, I’m starting to having doubt in this cortex thing...
Dansy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 10:59 AM
  #378
siclick33
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: York, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,625
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

As F1 Rocket says, just teach the Cortex Pro with the unstabilised channels in a 'safe' position (i.e. with the throttle at idle and not shut off).

As I am led to believe, all of these 'problems' only occur when operating with extremely poor (almost non-existent) signal conditions. As I understand it, the shutdowns are unlikely to occur in normal operating conditions, can be eradicated by re-teaching with the throttle not in the shut off position and will be fixed completely in firmware 1.5.
siclick33 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 12:01 PM
  #379
wfield0455
 
wfield0455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Holliston, MA
Posts: 1,003
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by siclick33 View Post
As F1 Rocket says, just teach the Cortex Pro with the unstabilised channels in a 'safe' position (i.e. with the throttle at idle and not shut off).

As I am led to believe, all of these 'problems' only occur when operating with extremely poor (almost non-existent) signal conditions. As I understand it, the shutdowns are unlikely to occur in normal operating conditions, can be eradicated by re-teaching with the throttle not in the shut off position and will be fixed completely in firmware 1.5.
Yes but we were also told that this is what has been happening all along and the turbine shutdowns previously experienced and supposedly fixed in V1.4 were not caused by the CB200 going into fail-safe but rather this problem. I know of several people that experienced turbine shutdowns with complete loss of all control while standing near the model preparing to take off or when taxing back following a flight and the Q was near perfect the entire flight. And it wasn't just a turbine shutdown everything stopped working all together. I've experienced this behavior first hand on the bench. While these problems occurred with V1.3 firmware we were also told at the time that whatever they fixed in V1.4 could only happened with extremely poor reception which most certainly wasn't the case in the instances I mentioned above. Since I have a Cortex pro in one of my I own jets I REALLY want it to work but before I fly this thing again I would like an explanation that seems to explain all the situations that have been experienced / reported and the explanations I've heard so far simply don't explain the problems I mentioned above.

Last edited by wfield0455; 10-11-2017 at 12:05 PM.
wfield0455 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 12:37 PM
  #380
siclick33
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: York, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,625
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I can only pass on what I have been told by Bavarian Demon. Hopefully they won't mind me posting extracts from the email I received as they can explain what they have found much better than I can:

Quote:
The problem we found is that if the CB return from itís own failsafe, the first data package can result in a quick servo jump for all not stabilized channels run through the Pro. In detail, the channels jump to a center signal for a split second, and then back to where they should be according to the Txís signal. As this only affects the first 1-2 packages, you can imagine how short this ďissueĒ is. And it only becomes a real issue if something like a turbineís failsafe or off position is programmed somewhere near a center signal, which is very unusual. This is why, until now, no one realized this issue. It is very, very rare, and only coming up, if someone lost both receivers already, and luckily getting at least one back, so CB returning from a failsafe condition. Noone should fly in such a condition anyway
Quote:
A freezing unit, was never reproduced by ourselves, under no circumstances. If all cabeling and power supply is done as per the manualís request, especially the additional power cable cause of the low current the CBís Rx ports can handle, nothing will happen at all. There is nothing in the CORTEXpro that would ever make the unit freeze, except for loss of power, which would also affect the receivers, and mostly does.
If you have reproduced other problems on the bench, have you passed this information to Bavarian Demon? They have not been able to reproduce anything similar to what you report and I am sure would be keen to know more about your exact setup and actions at the time. Can you be certain that these are problems with the Cortex and not with Jeti? Is your Tx up to the latest Jeti Firmware 4.24?
siclick33 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 12:54 PM
  #381
Dansy
 
Dansy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prescott, Ont.
Posts: 872
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I don’t believe it will be fix until they say that we no longer need to bypass the cortex with the secondary RX with the Jeti CB’s......to me that mean the software is not working correctly with Jeti. It doesn’t stop me from owning a few of these....until something better come along.
Dansy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 01:02 PM
  #382
siclick33
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: York, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,625
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Bavarian Demon is not saying that you need to bypass the Cortex PRO.
siclick33 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 01:31 PM
  #383
tp777fo
 
tp777fo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 2,599
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Slick33.....Jeti is.

Dansy.....Bingo!

Mine will remain on bench until mystery is solved.
tp777fo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 02:05 PM
  #384
siclick33
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: York, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,625
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp777fo View Post
Slick33.....Jeti is.
Esprit Model/Jeti USA might be. I have heard nothing from Jeti in the Czech Republic and I would be surprised if they would recommend anything to do with third party products.

Has Esprit actually found anything or are they just being ultra cautious? As far as Bavarian Demon are concerned nothing has been found at all to warrant bypassing the Cortex PRO so if Esprit know something that they don't it would be great if they could share it to clear up some of the confusion.
siclick33 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 02:32 PM
  #385
F1 Rocket
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 239
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

FW 1.4 fixed an issue where the Cortex Pro (CP) could lock up. The factory was only able to reproduce this issue by operating the system at very low Q. Could it have happened at high Q? Yes, but we could not reproduce this. None the less we are confident this issue is taken care of with FW 1.4.

Separate from the above described issue we were made aware or serveral turbine shuts downs. At first we thought this was a result of the first issue and the shut downs were due to the Central Box (CB) momentarily going into failsafe. This proved incorrect because the shut down issue continued, even when the CB failsafe was set to keep the engine running. Further investigation revealed what was really happening and this will be corrected in FW 1.5 which should be released soon.

Can the shut shut downs happen when RX2 is connected directly to the CB? Yes, it can and has happened. The reason for this is due to how the CB operates. Data on RX1 is used exclusively until it is lost completely. Only then does the CB switch to RX2. The CP processes the data from the two receivers in a similar way. RX1 is used until data is lost, then RX2 is used. It is during this switch over that the issue can occurr. If the Q is very low and the data barely there the CP will drive the non stabilized outputs to the values learned during the teach in process. Bypassing the CP by connecting RX2 direct to the CB does not help here since the CB will still use the input on RX1 from CP.

What to do? For now, until FW 1.5 is available we suggest reteaching the system with the throttle set to a running position. We have tested this on a jet that had more dead stick landings than normal ones. After reteaching with the throttle in a running position we have had over two dozen flights without a shut down.

Should you bypass the CP with RX2? That is still an option if you wish. My own personal airplanes have both RX running trough the CP.
F1 Rocket is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 02:40 PM
  #386
F1 Rocket
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 239
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tp777fo View Post
Slick33.....Jeti is.

Dansy.....Bingo!

Mine will remain on bench until mystery is solved.
No. This was a solution proposed by some customers. When asked if it was ok we have said it could be used as an option. Jeti and bavarianDEMON have not said this is needed or required.
F1 Rocket is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 02:46 PM
  #387
F1 Rocket
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 239
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dansy View Post
I think �� at least I interpreted what they said by doing the following, when teaching my Cortex with CB100/200/400 to connect only the servos that uses the gyro....

So what I did is disconnect the turbine, flaps, retracts ect......do the learn...then reconnect all the stuff....I will pause my flying until this is clear, Iím starting to having doubt in this cortex thing...
no need to do this. Just teach the Cortex Pro with the throttle in a running position. Easy and takes only a couple minutes. I've done this at the field.
F1 Rocket is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 02:48 PM
  #388
F1 Rocket
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 239
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

FYI,
Joachim and I will be at the Best in the West Jet Rally in Buttonwillow, CA. Please come by if you are there and we would be more than happy to discuss all of this.
F1 Rocket is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 04:11 PM
  #389
Dansy
 
Dansy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prescott, Ont.
Posts: 872
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Not attending that event.....you have to agree that there has been more problems then normal with the combination of the Cortex and CB products...at least on forums, which doesn’t really inspire confidence in the system. My Jeti equipment has been really solid so I have no reason to believe it’s because of that.
Dansy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 04:40 PM
  #390
F1 Rocket
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 239
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dansy View Post
Not attending that event.....you have to agree that there has been more problems then normal with the combination of the Cortex and CB products...at least on forums, which doesn’t really inspire confidence in the system. My Jeti equipment has been really solid so I have no reason to believe it’s because of that.
It's a complex interface and even though we have worked directly with Jeti since the beginning there have been some challenges. We test extensively before release but the reality of product design is that you really don't know all that will happen until your product is out in the field. Anyone who tells you differently has not worked in product development. The important thing is we listen to our customers, we go back and test using what we learn from their input, and we fix the issue. This is what we have done and will always do.

Last edited by F1 Rocket; 10-11-2017 at 04:43 PM.
F1 Rocket is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 04:51 PM
  #391
Andrew Bailey
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Chippenham Wiltshire, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 99
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

To be clear then, is the current advice to run both Rx through the CortexPro and go through the teaching setup process with the throttle set at idle? If I have understood correctly it sounds like there is zero benefit in having the primary Rx going through the CortexPro and the secondary through the Jeti CB. Also, is there any estimate on the timescale for 1.5 to be released? Are we talking days, weeks or months?

Last edited by Andrew Bailey; 10-11-2017 at 04:56 PM.
Andrew Bailey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 05:23 PM
  #392
F1 Rocket
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 239
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Bailey View Post
To be clear then, is the current advice to run both Rx through the CortexPro and go through the teaching setup process with the throttle set at idle? If I have understood correctly it sounds like there is zero benefit in having the primary Rx going through the CortexPro and the secondary through the Jeti CB. Also, is there any estimate on the timescale for 1.5 to be released? Are we talking days, weeks or months?
Dual serial is the recommended interface. FW 1.5 is expected next week.
F1 Rocket is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 09:06 PM
  #393
causeitflies
 
causeitflies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: EASTERN OHIO
Posts: 1,865
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

I've just aquired a CP. If there is any doubt, can't we still just connect the CP after the CB using the old loom connections? What is the downside or will the problem still be present?
causeitflies is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2017, 10:07 PM
  #394
yasir_ali
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Sindh, PAKISTAN
Posts: 11
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Cool gadget!!!
yasir_ali is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2017, 03:31 AM
  #395
F1 Rocket
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 239
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by causeitflies View Post
I've just aquired a CP. If there is any doubt, can't we still just connect the CP after the CB using the old loom connections? What is the downside or will the problem still be present?
Yes, you can always use the cable loom. The issue discussed above is only present when using a serial interface. The only downside is you will not be able to take advantage of connecting to a serial bus or in the case of Jeti users connecting to a Central Box and/or using the Jeti Device Explorer integration.
F1 Rocket is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2017, 05:02 PM
  #396
tp777fo
 
tp777fo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 2,599
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Bavarian website shows 1.5 is available for download.
tp777fo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2017, 09:50 AM
  #397
JSF-TC
 
JSF-TC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 644
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Danny,

Based upon a comment you made in post #385, can you clarify the logic used by the CP to handle 2 receiver inputs, and what does it actually output. The info presented over on the RCG Jeti thread about how the Central Box handles receiver switching got me thinking.

For those that haven't read the RCG topic, link below starting at page #2078, post #31157
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...dates/page2078


Quote:
The reason for this is due to how the CB operates. Data on RX1 is used exclusively until it is lost completely. Only then does the CB switch to RX2. The CP processes the data from the two receivers in a similar way. RX1 is used until data is lost, then RX2 is used.

I read it that the Cortex Pro does not pass on 2 independent RX data streams (with gyro modifications) to then let the Central Box decide which Rx data stream to use.

If the Cortex Pro performs a Rx1 and Rx2 quality check and decides to pass on only the valid signal, I think it implies that the Cortex Pro puts out the same 'filtered, valid' signal on both of its Rx1 & Rx2 outputs - so that Rx1 & Rx2 data as seen by the Central Box would be identical. It also means that the Central Box would always be on Rx1 input - having the Rx2 connected means nothing apart from providing a separate power supply to the Cortex Pro.


If my interpretation is correct (Cortex Pro Rx1 & Rx2 outputs being identical) then understanding the logic of how the Cortex Pro performs the Rx1/ Rx2 filtering is important. Does it check and decide which input to use on a frame-by-frame basis, or does it work similarly to the Central Box as described over on RCG? If it passes on independent Rx streams, then we know how the Central Box will handle it, based upon Cravenjw's recent testing.

It can also help with the suggestion to have 2x 2.4G receivers into the Cortex Pro, outputting to the CB Rx1 port and one of the new 900 Rx into the CB Rx 2 port, to give the frequency backup ahead of the CB firmware update allowing 3 receivers.

Paul
JSF-TC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 12:59 AM
  #398
ERRC
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 32
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Hi Paul.

Many good questions here.

I have tried a lot of combinations around these questions and found a combination that I am now using in my jets. I have seen spooky things both with Jeti and CortexPro, but the main thing here is that with latest upgrades both with Jeti and CP, It now seems to run as it should, an I have lowered my shoulders.

You are pointing at important things.

Primary receiver should always be connected to input B at CP and output 6 at CP connected to RX1 at CentralBox. Telemetry is also run back on this channel.

What is nice to know is that CP is mirroring output 5 and 6, so whatever you decide to connect to CP, and whatever CP chooses to do, it is enough to connect output 6 to CB Rx1

That leaves CB Rx2 free, and I choose to connect my secondary receiver to this port. That means that CB also can run back telemetry this way.

And here my little trick comes........... Since I am using REX3 receivers, I just make one of the outputs an extra Ext output and connect this extra Ext signal to input A on CortexPro.

What comes out of this is that CP can choose between both receivers, both receivers can provide telemetry, AND............ if CortextPro locks (yes it has happened) I can still fly on secondary receiver connected to CB Rx2 without gyro and save my model.


I have also tested 900 receiver connected to CB Rx2 as a backup, but there is a problem here. If CortexPro locks, both receivers are still in contact with transmitter, everything looks fine and transmitter does not start up 900 system. System does not discover that signals from 2,4 receivers are not reaching CB Rx1.

There will still be a sort of connection on the 900 system, but in a very staccato way. But you will be able to fly. If both 2,4 receivers are put out, 900 system will run smoothly and give signals to CB Rx2.

I prefer to use the 2,4 system as backup since transmission is always there.

I do not know if this is the best way to combine Jeti and CortexPro, but it seems to work for me now..... : ))

Egil

ERRC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 03:11 AM
  #399
ERRC
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 32
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

Sorry for my bad english.......... When I said CortexPro locked, I mean stopping and not letting signals passing through from receivers to Centralbox.

It is also important for me to say that this happened to the early versions, and that I have seen nothing of this on later versions.

I am also impressed by the flying characteristic of CortexPro.

Egil
ERRC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 05:03 AM
  #400
tp777fo
 
tp777fo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 2,599
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default

ERRC....how about a diagram of your setup.
tp777fo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:42 PM.