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Turbine telemetry for Kingtech's New Autostart ECU

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Turbine telemetry for Kingtech's New Autostart ECU

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Old 02-07-2017, 12:24 PM
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i3dm
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Default Turbine telemetry for Kingtech's New Autostart ECU

Hello guys,

I finished developing my RTDT (Radio Turbine Data Terminal) for the new Kingtech ECU and Futaba Sbus2 / FRSKY radio.
this is an extremely light weight unit (7g without display, 15 grams with display) that reads ECU turbine data and sends it down to your Futaba / FRSKY radio via telemetry.
In addition, it has an optional LCD module for installation inside your model, in various sizes.

Please see the demo video, and contact me if intetrested.
As far as i know this is currently the only telemetry adapter in the world to support the new Kingtech Autostart ECU
thanks for looking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oat3jS9t8xk
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:30 PM
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Very good, especially that it is for use on Futaba. However, the main telemetry requirement these days is the fuel related information. Can your unit display; fuel remaining in the tank(s) or some kind of fuel flow information?

Regards,

Jan
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:37 PM
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the Kingtech ECU doesnt support it. its possible to do an algorithm that estimates used fuel quantity cased on pump voltage / power, but im afraid this might be not so accurate between new / old pumps.
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Old 02-07-2017, 01:46 PM
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any fuel telemetry available?
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Old 02-07-2017, 03:46 PM
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David Jackson
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Will it work with the Spectrum radio, and will it provide propeller RPM for Kingtech turboprop engines?
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Old 02-07-2017, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by David Jackson View Post
Will it work with the Spectrum radio, and will it provide propeller RPM for Kingtech turboprop engines?
I have not designed a spektrum unit yet.
It wont display propeller RPM, rather turbine RPM.
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Old 02-11-2017, 06:08 AM
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I forgot to mention the RTDT offers full twin engine support - two units can use adjacent telemetry slots for a twin engine aircarft, and you get data from both units to the ground at the same time!
a very good addition to any twin engine aircaft, will allow immidiate alert of power loss in any one of the engines!
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Old 02-12-2017, 07:14 PM
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Guys,
jeti offers a fuel flow module. It's expensive and you have to break your fuel line to utilize it.

I installed an MUI sensor (battery voltage and milliamperes used) inline to the fuel pump from the ecu. Through a little careful testing I've been able to determine how many milliamperes to use to equate to a fuel level I want to land at. Sometimes I have to land at 7 min, other times 10 or so but the fuel level is always the same. Very cool and I'm guessing some of the other radio manf have similar telemetry units for electrics. Food for thought! I saw where one guy set up a flameout alarm based off it too

David, jeti also has an rpm sensor for what that's worth. Not sure what you're running
dave

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Old 02-12-2017, 09:46 PM
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All ecus already offer fuel flow - its called pump voltage
But you have to calibrate it to each type of pump independantly, thats the problem.
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Old 02-13-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by i3dm View Post
All ecus already offer fuel flow - its called pump voltage
But you have to calibrate it to each type of pump independantly, thats the problem.
Yes, you are right - that is why we would like an adapter to show fuel telemetry with the particular radio system and turbine being used. Not interested in adding fuelflow sensors/meters. Currently this is possible with almost every single combination in use. All the other telemetry of battery, rpm, temperature, speed etc. is secondary to fuel telemetry.

Hope you can get this working.

Jan
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by i3dm View Post
All ecus already offer fuel flow - its called pump voltage
But you have to calibrate it to each type of pump independantly, thats the problem.
If I am not mistaken, the xicoy telemetry for fuel flow does exactly this (for the engines without brushless pumps at least). If feasible, you just need an user-configurable multiplier param to allow fine tuning for each fuel setup, then a test run is all it takes to get it dialed in, isn't it so?
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ozief16 View Post
Guys,
jeti offers a fuel flow module. It's expensive and you have to break your fuel line to utilize it.

I installed an MUI sensor (battery voltage and milliamperes used) inline to the fuel pump from the ecu. Through a little careful testing I've been able to determine how many milliamperes to use to equate to a fuel level I want to land at. Sometimes I have to land at 7 min, other times 10 or so but the fuel level is always the same. Very cool and I'm guessing some of the other radio manf have similar telemetry units for electrics. Food for thought! I saw where one guy set up a flameout alarm based off it too

David, jeti also has an rpm sensor for what that's worth. Not sure what you're running
dave
Care to share which turbine version you're using and many mah are consumed for a given amount of fuel ? I've setup the same installation with a K60G and have written a LUA application that accepts a fuel tank capacity, fuel used / oz calibration value and a fuel remaining alarm. Unfortunately it's been cold here in Massachusetts and I haven't had a chance to run the turbine enough to figure out the calibration value and fully debug the LUA application. Just trying to get some sort of starting calibration estimate such as 20ma /ounce, etc.
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Springbok Flyer View Post
Yes, you are right - that is why we would like an adapter to show fuel telemetry with the particular radio system and turbine being used. Not interested in adding fuelflow sensors/meters. Currently this is possible with almost every single combination in use. All the other telemetry of battery, rpm, temperature, speed etc. is secondary to fuel telemetry.

Hope you can get this working.

Jan

I am somewhat confused about the requests here. For YEARS we have been flying turbines and knowing that we had to land depending on the amount of time we flew because we used the computer between our ears to figure it out and set a timer. I think what Lior has put out is great because it gives me the ability to set an alarm of an over temp, an over rpm, a low rpm, etc. I fly with gassers so sometimes I can't hear the turbine, but this telemetry eliminates the need for me to have to hear my engine. I guess then if you start to depend on the fuel flow figures and something in the calibration goes wrong on a flight what then? To each their own, but the whole fuel flow thing is just a good guesstimate unless you use the device that goes inline of your fuel flow and actually measures how much fuel goes through it. This is just my opinion and it reflects how I feel..so don't read to much into it.

Patrick

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Old 02-15-2017, 10:03 PM
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Patrick,
You hit the nail on the head!
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:41 PM
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Timers are great, and they have worked for years. Ever forget to start a timer? If you have it set to a gear switch, mode switch, or something like that forgetting would be less likely. But in the event that it hasn't been started, a low level alarm is there to save you. Also, ever been in a situation where your timer has gone off, you are ready to come in but the runway is not clear for some reason? Or how about gear issues make multiple passes necessary and you wonder if you have enough fuel? The low level alarm will help you then.

Is it 100% necessary? Of course not. But I had this function with my last plane and it was nice to have. Pretty accurate too, and I never worried about whether I had enough fuel. Frankly, I used to land before the alarm anyway, either because I had set a timer or I just wanted to land for whatever reason. I had it set up so that a quick glance at my Jeti I could see how much fuel I had, real nice.

In the electric world, specifically helicopters, it's big now to have a capacity consumed alarm, similar to a "fuel tank" type of a thing. When that started critics would argue that timers have worked just fine, and they were right. But once you started flying knowing how much you had left, it was a whole new world. Fly hard, fly soft, putter around... doesn't matter, you will always know when you should land. I won't build another heli without it, and all of my electric planes in the future will have the capability as well. I am not as adamant about it with turbines, but it is really nice to have.

Product looks good though, those other features are nice to have too!

Tom M
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:04 AM
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Hi guys,

As Patrick said - to each his own.

For me, fuel telemetry is a must on my turbines. I also use to set timers and lived with all the possible inconsistencies associated with them. Now you can get accurate fuel remaining telemetry on most turbine ECU's which can be displayed on most radio systems.

I use a Futaba 18MZ (yes I know...and I agree....the units of display is a joke, but nevertheless) and with JetCat using a CB Telemetry adapter I can see accurately how much fuel I have left in my jet. With AMT and a Carsten Telemetry adapter I can see accurately how much fuel I have left in my jet. With KingTech (using the Xicoy ECU) and a Xicoy Telemetry adapter I can see accurately how much fuel I have left in my jet.

Get the picture yet?

All these options are using different values to calculate this fuel remaining telemetry - they only have one thing in common. The required information can be aquired from the ECU. All these adapters plug into the GSU slot and then feed back the info to the Rx.....etc.

By having the fuel remaining displayed, each fight can be different in terms of throttle management and circumstances can be judged much better (as Tom pointed out). Time is no longer a factor, you judge your flight duration by the amount of fuel you have left (which is pretty accurate when the adapters are used correctly).

So, please try to get this adapter to display the fuel telemetry.....that will be a first on this ECU.

Thank you for your efforts (?), I am following this development with keen interest.

Cheers,

Jan

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Old 02-16-2017, 12:06 AM
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You guys are really all correct!
telemetry is something we can live without (and we all have until this was made available to us), but once you find that flying with it gives you REAL TIME data from the air, literally at your palm, for the first itme ever, you understand it is an important SAFETY feature worth utilizing, for both engine data and fuel data.

Some ECUs offer the fuel data (according to the manufacturers calibration) and when these are offered, i support them in my telemetry - this exists for Jetcat, Projet etc, but Xicoy and Kingtech dont offer it.

While its very much possible to write a code that integrates fuel quantity according to pump voltage integration, this will change with different engines / pump types, or even the age of the pump can effect it. and if i make a calibration mechnism, it needs a programmer to connect to the unit in order to load calibration parameters for each setup.

my units are super simple, plug and play, no hassle involved, and therefore i chose not to go that route for fuel level in Xicoy and KT.
i would also be worried about wrong calibration leading to a miscalculation of fuel quantity causing somebody a flameout, and possibly damage to the model or worse.
This is why i chose to display manufacturer data only, and not generate any telemetry data myself.

i feel this is the safest solution.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Springbok Flyer View Post
Hi guys,

As Patrick said - to each his own.

For me, fuel telemetry is a must on my turbines. I also use to set timers and lived with all the possible inconsistencies associated with them. Now you can get accurate fuel remaining telemetry on most turbine ECU's which can be displayed on most radio systems.

I use a Futaba 18MZ (yes I know...and I agree....the units of display is a joke, but nevertheless) and with JetCat using a CB Telemetry adapter I can see accurately how much fuel I have left in my jet. With AMT and a Carsten Telemetry adapter I can see accurately how much fuel I have left in my jet. With KingTech (using the Xicoy ECU) and a Xicoy Telemetry adapter I can see accurately how much fuel I have left in my jet.

Get the picture yet?

All these options are using different values to calculate this fuel remaining telemetry - they only have one thing in common. The required information can be aquired from the ECU. All these adapters plug into the GSU slot and then feed back the info to the Rx.....etc.

By having the fuel remaining displayed, each fight can be different in terms of throttle management and circumstances can be judged much better (as Tom pointed out). Time is no longer a factor, you judge your flight duration by the amount of fuel you have left (which is pretty accurate when the adapters are used correctly).

So, please try to get this adapter to display the fuel telemetry.....that will be a first on this ECU.

Thank you for your efforts (Sirrom), I am following this development with keen interest.

Cheers,

Jan

Jan,
i developed the units, not Sirrom.
please read my last post, i DO SUPPORT the fuel quantity when the ECU offers it, and i explained exactly how i could offer fuel quantity to anyone who needs it.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:15 AM
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BTW with my unit all the units of display on a 18MZ are correct, no joke!
Please watch my video in first post, you will see
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:43 AM
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Apologies, I thought you were Sirrom.....

Yes I have see the video, I was referring to the units iro fuel. As for your explanation of how it can be done - no problem, that is what Carsten and Caspar use as well. Both their adapters recognise the engine from the ECU (I assume the manufactures assisted them with this identification) and they require the fuel capacity to be entered. Then you can fine-tune the usage by doing a few flights and checking that the calculation factor (which is user generated) is correct. With the Carsten adapter the user can also fine-tune the usage by altering the idle and/or full throttle calculation factors. That is why I said 'these adapters are pretty accurate, if they are used correctly. As for 'old' pumps - no problem, just recalibrate the adapter by changing the calculation factor(s).

Anyway, when using any of these adapters it is wise to understate the fuel capacity and apart from checking actual usable fuel quantity, to always use a lesser fuel volume when entering the tank capacity.

Cheers,

Jan
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:56 AM
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I agree, its all possible.
It would require an interface to an external unit for programming.
Xicoy uses their own GSU, how do you program the carsten unit?
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:24 AM
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The Carsten unit uses a SD card which is programmed via a card reader and your PC.

Jan
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:35 AM
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I see, this makes the unit more complex and more expensive, which is a route i do not want to go.

I can definitly code the integral function on pump voltage, but we need to think about calibration.

One option that wont require calibration is simply summing pump voltage, and then whichever number you get as "full tank capacity" is now your full value, take 20% off that and thats your threshold for landing.

For example my tank is 5000ml.
But because i didnt calibrate, full tank actually "counts" 10,000ml. So i will simply set my alarm to 8000ml and be done with it.

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Old 02-16-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by i3dm View Post
I see, this makes the unit more complex and more expensive, which is a route i do not want to go.

I can definitly code the integral function on pump voltage, but we need to think about calibration.

One option that wont require calibration is simply summing pump voltage, and then whichever number you get as "full tank capacity" is now your full value, take 20% off that and thats your threshold for landing.

For example my tank is 5000ml.
But because i didnt calibrate, full tank actually "counts" 10,000ml. So i will simply set my alarm to 8000ml and be done with it.
Doesn't that assume the fuel flow is directly proportional to the voltage applied to the pump? I'd guesstimate in the real world that probably doesn't hold true. May be worth it to investigate before implementing?
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:53 AM
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Of course.
Even if its not proportional, when you fly with varying throttle at a similar regime, you will get similar results.

Also similar mechnisms use a single factor, so i guess the results are close to proportional.

im not sure its worth the testing and coding investment. The unit is not designed to generate data items (even if others do it), but to reflect real ECU data to the pilot, which is already extremely useful.

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