Burn bans and rc turbines.
02-11-2017, 05:18 PM
#27
Its all pretty stupid and childish...
02-11-2017, 06:05 PM
#28
With all the new turbine pilots joining the fray clubs will either resist and call the burn ban card or embrace the new turbine pilots. The foam viper will bring a lot of pilots to the turbine side. And clubs will continue to be divided, scale guys, 3D guys, hellie guys, pattern guys and the Jet guys. It surprises me how club officers will pick one and overly push it to the point the club no longer is inclusive to the left out ones...that's what happened to my club.
TB
TB
02-11-2017, 07:05 PM
#30
I've learned over the years while enjoying our hobby all across the country, You don't have to be one of those " prima Donna jet guys sitting at one end of the field " just be a regular dude enjoying the hobby, while sharing the airspace. Bring a prop, foamie electric warbird or a glider to the field. Walk the flight line and bring a bottle of cold water to your neighbor, when he's head down fixing his bird.
Fly with precision and in a non aggressive / threatening profile. I once flew my XL Boomerang with an old airstart Olympus slower than an old timers biplane with .91 four stroke. He stood in amazement with a Cheshire Cat grin when I landed with a shorter rollout. He had never seen a jet fly slow and didn't think it was possible. You only have to turn the opinion of one.
As an aside, get in touch with bob covish or Ronnie dean ( raron ) and get added to the group email / Waco gathering text message. There's usually a gathering monthly and nobody cares what you fly. In the interim fly with the local boys and work to change the mindset, one dude at a time.
Fly with precision and in a non aggressive / threatening profile. I once flew my XL Boomerang with an old airstart Olympus slower than an old timers biplane with .91 four stroke. He stood in amazement with a Cheshire Cat grin when I landed with a shorter rollout. He had never seen a jet fly slow and didn't think it was possible. You only have to turn the opinion of one.
As an aside, get in touch with bob covish or Ronnie dean ( raron ) and get added to the group email / Waco gathering text message. There's usually a gathering monthly and nobody cares what you fly. In the interim fly with the local boys and work to change the mindset, one dude at a time.
02-11-2017, 07:05 PM
#31
We worked through the 3D at my club by just being nice to everyone and getting along, and flying when there was a break in the action. After about a season of us flying responsibly and being courteous to one another they now enjoy our flights and we enjoy theirs. We even fly together with some of them.
02-12-2017, 02:52 AM
#33
I've learned over the years while enjoying our hobby all across the country, You don't have to be one of those " prima Donna jet guys sitting at one end of the field " just be a regular dude enjoying the hobby, while sharing the airspace. Bring a prop, foamie electric warbird or a glider to the field. Walk the flight line and bring a bottle of cold water to your neighbor, when he's head down fixing his bird.
Fly with precision and in a non aggressive / threatening profile. I once flew my XL Boomerang with an old airstart Olympus slower than an old timers biplane with .91 four stroke. He stood in amazement with a Cheshire Cat grin when I landed with a shorter rollout. He had never seen a jet fly slow and didn't think it was possible. You only have to turn the opinion of one.
As an aside, get in touch with bob covish or Ronnie dean ( raron ) and get added to the group email / Waco gathering text message. There's usually a gathering monthly and nobody cares what you fly. In the interim fly with the local boys and work to change the mindset, one dude at a time.
Fly with precision and in a non aggressive / threatening profile. I once flew my XL Boomerang with an old airstart Olympus slower than an old timers biplane with .91 four stroke. He stood in amazement with a Cheshire Cat grin when I landed with a shorter rollout. He had never seen a jet fly slow and didn't think it was possible. You only have to turn the opinion of one.
As an aside, get in touch with bob covish or Ronnie dean ( raron ) and get added to the group email / Waco gathering text message. There's usually a gathering monthly and nobody cares what you fly. In the interim fly with the local boys and work to change the mindset, one dude at a time.
Dennis
02-12-2017, 04:26 AM
#34
Fly with precision and in a non aggressive / threatening profile. I once flew my XL Boomerang with an old airstart Olympus slower than an old timers biplane with .91 four stroke. He stood in amazement with a Cheshire Cat grin when I landed with a shorter rollout. He had never seen a jet fly slow and didn't think it was possible. You only have to turn the opinion of one.
http://www.berksmontnews.com/article...NEWS/161219966
Neighbors used zoning as a tool to shut down a very popular jet flying field here in Pennsylvania. After the court heard testimony on the number of off property crashes, high speed overflights, and trespassing (to get wreckage). And the judge wrote in her ruling that "The evidence before the ZHB in this case included concrete accounts of model aircraft repeatedly crashing on adjacent property. There is substantial evidence to support the finding that the operation of these model planes poses a serious threat to persons on adjoining land." But what I feel is a harbinger for the hobby was this statement by the judge: "The record clearly demonstrates that the speed, size and weight of the model airplanes and jets have increased over the past five decades to characteristics where safety needs to be the primary concern." (page 6 of attached ruling)
As this case became public, with respect to how others perceive operations, I came across this comment: "A couple of summers ago I took my young grandson to a publicized jet rally at this field. It was Sunday morning, and a show team was there from a big distributor, flying a pair of A-10's. The song they chose to fly to was "Highway to Hell", and it was played LOUD! The club sits up on a hill and the music drifted into the valleys, probably carrying for some distance. I thought it was a poor choice of music because here in rural Berks County, where I grew up, most still believe in keeping the Sabbath holy, and those less fervent still respect the beliefs of their neighbors. The judge may have cited safety concerns, but I think it was more than that."
What does this have to do with flying when risk of fire is high? It goes to acceptance of risk and perceptions it creates. I spent a lot of years in California, and lived first hand with the danger and results of wildfires. I even ran military wildfire fighting operations out of my base for a couple weeks. I've seen how even a small fire can get out of hand in a hurry, and these can lead to damage on a massive scale, and even result in the loss of life. I can't help but think that it would be bad for the hobby if there was a wildfire that got started by the crash of any model, let alone one flown by an AMA member. With the attention on our hobby, and with court decisions like the one above already able to be searched and found by attorneys, is it worth the risk?
Individuals and clubs will make that risk decision for themselves. But a risk assumed by one can rapidly turn into a risk assumed by all (the hobby writ large) if there is a fire caused by a model aircraft / AMA member that gets badly out of control.
Just my 2c. Here's the ruling in case anyone wants to read the case and factors that led to the closing. (It's a PDF, for some reason displays here as a black box...click on it...it'll open). I've highlighted key statements.
Last edited by franklin_m; 02-12-2017 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Added quote and copy of PA Court Ruling
02-12-2017, 05:36 AM
#35
We have around 300 members, 12 with turbine waivers, 6 fly choppers. I only got into this hobby 3 years ago and I fly all of them. All the turbine guys also fly other fuel and electric models. All the heli guys fly airplane models as well. It helps. Helis fly only when all others happen to be off the field, others can wait 3 or 4 minute but often the heli guys fly later in the day when few are at the field. Same for the 3D guys. There will always be a few who grumble but we get along. It helps that I fly scale WWII, electric, gas, 3D, helis and turbines, I get along with about everybody because I talk and associate with them all. It probably helps that I am sort of an old timer myself, 62.
A few years before my time there was a big turbine fire at our grassy field where the fire department had to come out. I think there was some damage to a structure and we ended up paying a repair bill. We then got a 4 wheel ATV with extinguishers and even ended up using it with some LiPo fires, small as there were. We agreed not to fly if the KBDI index got above 500, not a bad rule as we have tall grass for our flying area. It is only cut short around our 500 foot paved runway. I see the level is 0-100 in Austin, TX. We are at 550 or more here in Sarasota, FL (http://currentweather.freshfromflori.../kbdi_4km.html). In the winter months there is less than 0.5 inches of rain a month, it is very dry unless we have an El Nino. It rains more and we frequently fly all winter. Summers are wet, usually with a KBDI of around 100-300 from May to November.
There is a county club about an hour away with no turbine flying restrictions but their field is more like dirt with only an inch or two of vegetation. They also have a 4 wheeler fire truck and pilots must have a 2 gallon water and one other type of fire extinguisher with them at all times.
Fire protection makes sense. Smart people learn from their mistakes, really smart people learn from the mistakes of others. Be safe.
aehaas
A few years before my time there was a big turbine fire at our grassy field where the fire department had to come out. I think there was some damage to a structure and we ended up paying a repair bill. We then got a 4 wheel ATV with extinguishers and even ended up using it with some LiPo fires, small as there were. We agreed not to fly if the KBDI index got above 500, not a bad rule as we have tall grass for our flying area. It is only cut short around our 500 foot paved runway. I see the level is 0-100 in Austin, TX. We are at 550 or more here in Sarasota, FL (http://currentweather.freshfromflori.../kbdi_4km.html). In the winter months there is less than 0.5 inches of rain a month, it is very dry unless we have an El Nino. It rains more and we frequently fly all winter. Summers are wet, usually with a KBDI of around 100-300 from May to November.
There is a county club about an hour away with no turbine flying restrictions but their field is more like dirt with only an inch or two of vegetation. They also have a 4 wheeler fire truck and pilots must have a 2 gallon water and one other type of fire extinguisher with them at all times.
Fire protection makes sense. Smart people learn from their mistakes, really smart people learn from the mistakes of others. Be safe.
aehaas
02-12-2017, 10:32 AM
#37
Most people at Chatfield accept the jets, because we fly safely and respect the other pilots. I have been flying jets at Chatfield longer than anyone else that still flys at Chatfield, so I have seen it when the jet guys were acting like a bunch of jerks, but none of those guys fly jets any more.
02-12-2017, 06:17 PM
#40
My local club (Fort Worth Thunderbirds) had a turbine burn ban prohibition until last year when I asked them to reconsider based on other clubs in the vicinity not implementing one and the fire-marshal's accidental fire interpretation, and they agreed based upon the reliability and infrequency of turbine crashes and the requirement to have water fire fighting equipment available.
I'm lucky to have a very progressive and open club locally, with at least 6 active turbine fliers, and also ready access to Waco, probably the best jet field/ club in Texas.
Paul
I'm lucky to have a very progressive and open club locally, with at least 6 active turbine fliers, and also ready access to Waco, probably the best jet field/ club in Texas.
Paul
02-12-2017, 07:19 PM
#41
So here is a great example of the disconnect from the club leadership and the actual pilots that fly turbines and have wavers. The president of my club who is insisting on the turbine ban during a burn ban (for safety) posts on the clubs FB page announcing their Jet event (official flyer and all) that they want to see how fast the jet jockeys can go and offered up a cash reward and challenge to the fastest jet "how fast can you go" chalange!
So a former member and a jet turbine waver holder informs him that there is a 200mph limit and it is for safety, and he may want to reconsider this as any waver holder braking this rule can loos his waver if he breaks this rule, not to mention being liable if something were to go wrong. He brushes him off saying it's not an official race but just for fun at the official sanctioned event...ok!
The turbine ban during a burn ban is enforced for safety, but during a sanctioned event rules can be disregarded and shrugged off as "this is for fun"
well I personally know that no pilots I fly with will disregard rules so easily...not even for a cash prize to entertain a crowd at a club sanctioned event. We as turbine pilots take what we do very seriously as far as safety goes and never comprise that for any reason.
Just showes how out of touch a clubs leadership can be when it comes to turbine jets.
And if your going to implement policy for safety when it comes to turbines at least know the rules and have some knolage of turbines!
TB
So a former member and a jet turbine waver holder informs him that there is a 200mph limit and it is for safety, and he may want to reconsider this as any waver holder braking this rule can loos his waver if he breaks this rule, not to mention being liable if something were to go wrong. He brushes him off saying it's not an official race but just for fun at the official sanctioned event...ok!
The turbine ban during a burn ban is enforced for safety, but during a sanctioned event rules can be disregarded and shrugged off as "this is for fun"
well I personally know that no pilots I fly with will disregard rules so easily...not even for a cash prize to entertain a crowd at a club sanctioned event. We as turbine pilots take what we do very seriously as far as safety goes and never comprise that for any reason.
Just showes how out of touch a clubs leadership can be when it comes to turbine jets.
And if your going to implement policy for safety when it comes to turbines at least know the rules and have some knolage of turbines!
TB
Last edited by TonyBuilder; 02-12-2017 at 07:48 PM.
02-12-2017, 07:27 PM
#42
I think the field you are talking about is Chatfield. One day I was out there and there were about 4 big 3D pilots out there, they took turns flying one right the other all day long, flying right over the run way right in front of the flight line. There were many other flyers that wanted to fly but but didn't want to fly in the danger Zone of the 3D pilots. Many never did get to fly. What they were doing was not right.
Most people at Chatfield accept the jets, because we fly safely and respect the other pilots. I have been flying jets at Chatfield longer than anyone else that still flys at Chatfield, so I have seen it when the jet guys were acting like a bunch of jerks, but none of those guys fly jets any more.
Most people at Chatfield accept the jets, because we fly safely and respect the other pilots. I have been flying jets at Chatfield longer than anyone else that still flys at Chatfield, so I have seen it when the jet guys were acting like a bunch of jerks, but none of those guys fly jets any more.
But when we started at Chatfield there was resistance probably due to some of the dudes you are talking about. But I do fly at Chatfield and I am part of the "go along to get along" crowd and there are 3-4 of us that take turns and fly when it is a dead time and rotate. We try to all fly the big planes at the same time and then chill. We did that and socialized for a couple of years and now they like us. We liked them all along
02-12-2017, 07:49 PM
#43
So here is a great example of the disconnect from the club leadership and the actual pilots that fly turbines and have wavers. The president of my club who is insisting on the turbine ban during a burn ban (for safety) posts on the clubs FB page announcing there Jet event (official flyer and all) that they want to see how fast the jet jockeys can go and offered up a cash reward and challenge to the fastest jet "how fast can you go" chalange!
So a former member and a jet turbine waver holder informs him that there is a 200mph limit and it is for safety, and he may want to reconsider this as any waver holder braking this rule can loos his waver if he breaks this rule, not to mention being liable if something were to go wrong. He brushes him off saying it's not an official race but just for fun at the official sanctioned event...ok!
The turbine ban during a burn ban is enforced for safety, but during a sanctioned event rules can be disregarded and shrugged off as "this is for fun"
well I personally know that no pilots I fly with will disregard rules so easily...not even for a cash prize to entertain a crowd at a club sanctioned event. We as turbine pilots take what we do very seriously as far as safety goes and never comprise that for any reason.
Just showes how out of touch a clubs leadership can be when it comes to turbine jets.
And if your going to implement policy for safety when it comes to turbines at least know the rules and have some knolage of turbines!
TB
So a former member and a jet turbine waver holder informs him that there is a 200mph limit and it is for safety, and he may want to reconsider this as any waver holder braking this rule can loos his waver if he breaks this rule, not to mention being liable if something were to go wrong. He brushes him off saying it's not an official race but just for fun at the official sanctioned event...ok!
The turbine ban during a burn ban is enforced for safety, but during a sanctioned event rules can be disregarded and shrugged off as "this is for fun"
well I personally know that no pilots I fly with will disregard rules so easily...not even for a cash prize to entertain a crowd at a club sanctioned event. We as turbine pilots take what we do very seriously as far as safety goes and never comprise that for any reason.
Just showes how out of touch a clubs leadership can be when it comes to turbine jets.
And if your going to implement policy for safety when it comes to turbines at least know the rules and have some knolage of turbines!
TB
D
02-12-2017, 07:53 PM
#44
Tony,
Maybe the new ARCA President should read the turbine rules. Not only do we have the 200 mile limit but rule 21 says:
Good luck
Dawn
Maybe the new ARCA President should read the turbine rules. Not only do we have the 200 mile limit but rule 21 says:
- Turbine powered aircraft will not be allowed in any speed or racing events.
Good luck
Dawn
02-12-2017, 07:58 PM
#45
So here is a great example of the disconnect from the club leadership and the actual pilots that fly turbines and have wavers. The president of my club who is insisting on the turbine ban during a burn ban (for safety) posts on the clubs FB page announcing their Jet event (official flyer and all) that they want to see how fast the jet jockeys can go and offered up a cash reward and challenge to the fastest jet "how fast can you go" chalange!
So a former member and a jet turbine waver holder informs him that there is a 200mph limit and it is for safety, and he may want to reconsider this as any waver holder braking this rule can loos his waver if he breaks this rule, not to mention being liable if something were to go wrong. He brushes him off saying it's not an official race but just for fun at the official sanctioned event...ok!
The turbine ban during a burn ban is enforced for safety, but during a sanctioned event rules can be disregarded and shrugged off as "this is for fun"
well I personally know that no pilots I fly with will disregard rules so easily...not even for a cash prize to entertain a crowd at a club sanctioned event. We as turbine pilots take what we do very seriously as far as safety goes and never comprise that for any reason.
Just showes how out of touch a clubs leadership can be when it comes to turbine jets.
And if your going to implement policy for safety when it comes to turbines at least know the rules and have some knolage of turbines!
TB
So a former member and a jet turbine waver holder informs him that there is a 200mph limit and it is for safety, and he may want to reconsider this as any waver holder braking this rule can loos his waver if he breaks this rule, not to mention being liable if something were to go wrong. He brushes him off saying it's not an official race but just for fun at the official sanctioned event...ok!
The turbine ban during a burn ban is enforced for safety, but during a sanctioned event rules can be disregarded and shrugged off as "this is for fun"
well I personally know that no pilots I fly with will disregard rules so easily...not even for a cash prize to entertain a crowd at a club sanctioned event. We as turbine pilots take what we do very seriously as far as safety goes and never comprise that for any reason.
Just showes how out of touch a clubs leadership can be when it comes to turbine jets.
And if your going to implement policy for safety when it comes to turbines at least know the rules and have some knolage of turbines!
TB
